Is LCD doomed without Full array backlighting? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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How can LCD not suck without Full array? Why did Full array go away? Will Full array ever come back?

How can an edge lit LCD set ever look better than a Sharp Elite LCD set?

What takes the place of full array backlighting that will make LCD look better?

Is there anything out there that will accomplish that feat?

Why is it that no one is talking about this fiasco?

Look folks we're looking at an ALL LCD world and we're also looking at Edge lit crap!

What stops that? Dreaming about OLED that will never get here doesn't. Calling me crazy doesn't change LCD's deficiencies.

What is the path forward for LCD to look better than the Sharp Elites without Full array backlighting?

Do any of the technology geniuses know how that will happen? I'd like to know! I'm sure other people would like to know too--they might even want to hear something more than "the market likes LCD crap--just shut up already!"
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post #2 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 03:31 PM
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apparently not

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post #3 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 03:36 PM
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The TV market is not ruled or even more than barely influenced by technology geniuses. It's driven by marketing geniuses. Just like most products on the market. If technology geniuses ran things we'd all be driving electric cars that went 0-60 in four seconds and a charge would last 1,000 miles. YOU"RE last four words are hilarious.
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post #4 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 03:49 PM
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No. Tech like IGZO, quantum dots and MothEye will make it unnecessary for most LCDs, but if needed for larger sets the prices for full array should keep falling to acceptable levels in the next few years.
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post #5 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 04:53 PM
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Doomed? Most people hare happy with LCD quality today.

Image quality might be doomed if technology like OLED doesn't take off and we are stuck with edge-lit LCDs though.
I'm very glad that I had the foresight to buy a full array backlit set when one or two of the companies making them dropped them in favor of edge LED, rather than waiting on the promise of OLED. (because it was already 5 years late at that point)


Layered panels in combination with "localized" edge dimming might work quite well.
I seem to recall Sharp's Mega Contrast 1,000,000:1 LCD using a layered design (this was long before LED backlighting) and that seemed to work quite well.
The display only had a peak white of 500 cd/m², so it was actually achieving 1,000,000:1 by having very deep black levels, rather than being extremely bright.

I can't seem to find many details about it now though. The press release doesn't mention anything about a layered design, but I'm sure that's what I heard back in 2005.
Really though, however that was achieved, it surely illustrates that LCD contrast can be dramatically improved over what we have today.
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post #6 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 05:45 PM
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In Southern California many 2013 LCD models have full array LED backlighting without local diming. These are less expensive to manufacture and have no flashlighting problems causes by edge lit LED backlighting. These LCD models are advertised as LED or LED/LCD models. They are AFAIK however thicker then the edge lit models but not enough IMHO to matter.
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post #7 of 58 Old 06-18-2013, 10:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I can't seem to find many details about it now though. The press release doesn't mention anything about a layered design, but I'm sure that's what I heard back in 2005.
Really though, however that was achieved, it surely illustrates that LCD contrast can be dramatically improved over what we have today.
And Pioneer had an absolute black panel demo that illustrated plasma can do the same. However, in the cases of both, it's clearly a question of financial viability of achieving these PQ goals.
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post #8 of 58 Old 06-19-2013, 01:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Will Full Array come back the year that plasma is eliminated or will there be at least one year just to see how much people will tolerate when it comes to suckyness?
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post #9 of 58 Old 06-19-2013, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Will Full Array come back the year that plasma is eliminated or will there be at least one year just to see how much people will tolerate when it comes to suckyness?
No, most plasma owners will never go LCD. The average person won't pay for quality LCD with the best back lighting systems. Those who can are going the projector route. Plasma won't be gone till OLED are truly ready for the marketplace.

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post #10 of 58 Old 06-19-2013, 06:24 AM
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The year isn't over yet. In september there will be some surprises at the IFA. We might even see a FALD wink.gif
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post #11 of 58 Old 06-19-2013, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post

No, most plasma owners will never go LCD. The average person won't pay for quality LCD with the best back lighting systems. Those who can are going the projector route. Plasma won't be gone till OLED are truly ready for the marketplace.

You're right... I'm a former plasma owner, looked around at what's available and went with front projection. I won't buy an edge-lit LCD.. ever..
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post #12 of 58 Old 06-20-2013, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone want to predict the year that Full Array Backlighting comes back to LCD?
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post #13 of 58 Old 06-20-2013, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Anyone want to predict the year that Full Array Backlighting comes back to LCD?
Apparently the 2013 LG XXLA9600 is a FALD. There might be a Philips FALD at the IFA 2013 (9000 series). The 2013 Samsung 4K UN85S9 is a FALD <- so FALD has not yet left the building smile.gif
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post #14 of 58 Old 06-22-2013, 08:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post

No, most plasma owners will never go LCD. The average person won't pay for quality LCD with the best back lighting systems. Those who can are going the projector route. Plasma won't be gone till OLED are truly ready for the marketplace.

Plasma is pretty much dead, only 2-3 companies manufacturer them, in only sizes 50'' and over. Most of the global set buying public don't want to have anything to do with Plasma, OLED has nothing do with the fate of Plasma.

I see PDP manufacturers trying to make brighter displays to compete with LED, however they're doing that the cost of increasing chances of Burn-in and IR.
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post #15 of 58 Old 06-22-2013, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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What does FALD mean?
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post #16 of 58 Old 06-22-2013, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

What does FALD mean?

Full Array Local Dimming = FALD
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post #17 of 58 Old 06-22-2013, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Is LG only going to make it in a 55-inch? I don't see the point?
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post #18 of 58 Old 06-23-2013, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Is LG only going to make it in a 55-inch? I don't see the point?

Then obviously you can't see the picture: They are not even able to make the 55-inch in volume @ sane price.

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post #19 of 58 Old 07-09-2013, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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IF LG can't produce good plasma and can't produce OLED then what is the purpose of LG?

Could the United Nations make them against the law?
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post #20 of 58 Old 07-09-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

IF LG can't produce good plasma and can't produce OLED then what is the purpose of LG?

Could the United Nations make them against the law?
Washers and dryers, refrigerators, blu-ray players, dvd players, microwaves.
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post #21 of 58 Old 07-16-2013, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe that LCD should only be used at that infectious disease research outfit on that island between Long Island New York and Block island Rhode Island.

It should be used in laxative research for the terminally constipated.

They say it always works!
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post #22 of 58 Old 07-17-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Plasma is pretty much dead, only 2-3 companies manufacturer them, in only sizes 50'' and over. Most of the global set buying public don't want to have anything to do with Plasma, OLED has nothing do with the fate of Plasma.

I see PDP manufacturers trying to make brighter displays to compete with LED, however they're doing that the cost of increasing chances of Burn-in and IR.

Pretty much dead? When PDPs still win best HDTV pq recognition (Panasonic's VT and ZT lines), and Samsung's F8500 series achieving LCD-level brightness output, the reasons for choosing an LCD for a home theater or home media center are rapidly diminishing. The best LED-LCD sets having pq on a par with the best PDPs died with the Sharp Elite.
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post #23 of 58 Old 07-17-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Washers and dryers, refrigerators, blu-ray players, dvd players, microwaves.


my appliance repair guy sez to avoid lg appliances

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post #24 of 58 Old 07-17-2013, 12:49 PM
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my appliance repair guy sez to avoid lg appliances

Usually when I hear that (usually they're warning away either LG, Bosch or Samsung) it's because the repair guy is unaccustomed to working on brands that aren't domestic US brands (GE, Whirlpool, Frigidaire, Kitchenaid), and they have no parts infrastructure in place like stores who sell and service LG, Samsung, et al.

Usually.

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post #25 of 58 Old 07-18-2013, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I believe that LCD should only be used at that infectious disease research outfit on that island between Long Island New York and Block island Rhode Island.

It should be used in laxative research for the terminally constipated.

They say it always works!

Or if you are a gamer and don't want slow input lag! smile.gif
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post #26 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

No. Tech like IGZO, quantum dots and MothEye will make it unnecessary for most LCDs, but if needed for larger sets the prices for full array should keep falling to acceptable levels in the next few years.

 

How do IGZO and Moth Eye make full array any more or less necessary?


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post #27 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Will Full Array come back the year that plasma is eliminated or will there be at least one year just to see how much people will tolerate when it comes to suckyness?
No, most plasma owners will never go LCD.

 

I don't agree with that at all.  Here's how I'd rephrase that (into two statements):

  • Most plasma owners will go LCD and be upset with the decrease in PQ.
  • Most videophile plasma owners will never go LCD.

 

We're not talking about AVSers here.  We're talking about the general public.


Well Vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, got one of these. I wonder how much longer before I get such a message...
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post #28 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 11:16 AM
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From what I've seen in the senior community I live in most with 60" sets do not want to go up to 65" but 70" and that rules out plasma.
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post #29 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't agree with that at all.  Here's how I'd rephrase that (into two statements):
  • Most plasma owners will go LCD and be upset with the decrease in PQ.
  • Most videophile plasma owners will never go LCD.

We're not talking about AVSers here.  We're talking about the general public.
3. Most "videophile" plasma owners have never evaluated a high end LCD, looked critically at their own display, or have any intention to.

I would argue that the only thing anyone that is not a videophile would notice when switching from plasma to lcd is that the viewing angles aren't as good - if they even notice that. The general public prefers LCD.
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post #30 of 58 Old 07-19-2013, 01:59 PM
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Saying that the general public prefers LCD is kind of a misnomer. Considering that only three companies offer plasma and none below the 50" size. When you throw in a bunch of off brand LCD's in the 32" range that can be had for around $279 it's not hard to understand why LCD sales far out number plasma sales. Then throw in any size above 65" and the balance favors LCD even more. Of course the general public prefers LCD. How could it not?
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