4 Reasons the 3D TV Movement is Already Dead - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 398 Old 07-26-2013, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Oniichan View Post

I have a question,

is the OP of this thread actually someone in the tech business or just an old fart that sits on his couch all day?

3D is not dead

I have a question (even though I didn't start this thread)....

Are you aware that the percentage of tickets being sold for 3-D movie releases is generally going down every single quarter? (That's the # of tickets sold in 3-D/# of tickets sold overall for a particular movie).

Are you aware that multichannel providers are lowering/removing/ending/decreasing commitments to 3-D?

If 3-D is not dead, perhaps comatose is a better word?
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #92 of 398 Old 07-26-2013, 03:41 PM
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Found a bunch of statistics and articles that pretty much say otherwise http://www.businessinsider.com/3d-movies-have-a-future-in-hollywood-2013-1
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post #93 of 398 Old 07-26-2013, 04:40 PM
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^^ What about ''Recent figures from the US showed no more than 120.000 watching 3D channels at any one time''?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21465628
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post #94 of 398 Old 07-26-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by megdagooch View Post

Found a bunch of statistics and articles that pretty much say otherwise http://www.businessinsider.com/3d-movies-have-a-future-in-hollywood-2013-1

 

Interesting.  They do make a critical mistake though: they listed Monster's Inc as a "2D conversion film".  All 100% CGI films do not have to go through a 2D->3D conversion at all.  They need only be re-rendered, and as such are "pure" 3D.

 

I think adding to the confusion about whether or not 3D is fairing well is that all movies more often than not are doing poorly at the box office these days.  "Going to the movies" is becoming less and less a thing in the states, or so you might believe if you listen to the news.


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post #95 of 398 Old 07-27-2013, 12:37 AM
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Not one of the statistics in the Business Insider article you linked "says otherwise".

Facts are a funny thing, but people who enjoy something can't be bothered by them.

Fact: 3-D screens are plentiful in the U.S., yet when given the choice, well over 50% of consumers select the 2-D showing of the film.

Few films that are released in 3-D get 50% of their box office from 3-D. This is true even though 3-D typically has an upcharge of 25% (or more!) vs. the 2-D ticket. A film like Pacific Rim did 52% of its box office in 3-D, which is considered high, yet means fewer than half the tickets were bought for 3-D shows.

Fact: 3-D TVs are plentiful in U.S. homes, but something approaching 90% of them have never display any 3-D.

There is next to zero broadcast 3-D from cable and satellite. The amount is falling not rising.

Funny, those theatrical releases in the BI article? Also flat/falling. After 2 years with 38 releases (zero growth), we seem headed for 37 this year (I counted everything that has come out + used the RealD calendar to get that total, so it's possible it's slightly high or slightly low -- but let's be clear there is no growth and possibly shrinkage).

Fact: No major rental or streaming service in the U.S. feels the need to offer 3-D content in anything but the most minimal quantities.

I'm not actually sure there is any 3-D content on Amazon, Vudu or iTunes, although there might be a handful of programs. I looked, but failed to find them. The services themselves don't do much to help you look if the programs exist. Redbox has no 3-D. Netflix seems to have none, too, or at least has no selection item for 3-D. For a medium that is supposed to be growing and that millions can watch in their home, don't you find that strange?.

There is no bullish stat on 3-D consumption to speak of. This despite a giant proliferation of the enabling technologies including giving away 3-D in TVs and BluRay players more or less.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #96 of 398 Old 07-27-2013, 06:28 AM
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No I didn't link all the statistics I found. Just an article that sums it up. And I think "plentiful" is subjective. I have 300 friends on Facebook, people I actually know, 2 of them have 3D TVs. And yes I asked, most say, "gee I don't even own a blu ray player!". Also, of the I don't know how many theaters within 50 miles of me, only one is 3D. The "plentiful" that I read in statistics seems to be a lot less than one would think. This forum is made up of a very specific type of people. When I first found the forum I referred to them as "those crazy AV freaks"! Lol! I now much appreciate and respect their knowledge. But in the beginning I thought many of them were snobs who didnt know what to do with all their money. The majority of consumers don't know and don't care about the things people here make a big deal about. We want affordable and reliable. We don't care if the pq is sub par. We do care that 3D is often more than we can afford in an economy struggling out of a recession. I think it is absurd to call 3D dead when it is a technology that most consumers still think is out of our price range and we dont know much about it. I can't tel you how many people that have DVD players think all they need is a 3D player to watch 3D movies. And people I know who do have and enjoy 3D both had their tv for more than 6months and both have less than 5 3D movies. I am fairly sure that the opinions of the general public don't match those here on the forum regarding 3D.
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post #97 of 398 Old 07-27-2013, 07:36 AM
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Both Starz and HBO have a 3D section, though pretty small.
 


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post #98 of 398 Old 08-13-2013, 01:47 PM
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I have problems viewing 3d pop out with active or passive. Its strange because I did not have the same issues using reald in the theater. On my plasma the flicker drives me nuts. My Wife can't stand it and I can't really use it yet I keep buying the 3d version of movies wondering if the new tech will work for me.

It might be time for me just to start buying the 2d versions.
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post #99 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediSpork View Post

I have problems viewing 3d pop out with active or passive. Its strange because I did not have the same issues using reald in the theater. On my plasma the flicker drives me nuts. My Wife can't stand it and I can't really use it yet I keep buying the 3d version of movies wondering if the new tech will work for me.

It might be time for me just to start buying the 2d versions.

 

It has a tremendous amount to do with the source, and how the filmmaker regards the use of convergence.  Movies these days when done properly don't employ "pop out" so much as a 3D image that descends into the TV.  IMO it helps keep movies from being the slap-in-your-face 3D for 3D's sake.  Instead of its most valuable reason for existence: further immersion into the storyline.  A great 3D movie like Avatar made me completely forget it was 3D, and helped me "live" the experience.  There were plenty of pop out scenes in that movie, but carefully chosen, and never to the extent that it felt as if it were the goal.


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post #100 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 08:55 AM
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To borrow from Mark Twain; Reports of the death Of 3D TV might be greatly exaggerated.

This looks like a product that might save it.

"GLASSES-FREE 3D TVS COMING BEFORE YEAR'S END"

"A new glasses-free 3D technology called Ultra-D has received much praise from the first people who have seen it in action. One of the TV folks said that it is "good enough to give me goose bumps during a 3D demonstration of Life of Pi". The first TVs with Ultra D will be out by year’s end.

A company called Stream TV hopes to change glasses-free 3D technology with their Ultra D technology. The technology was first exhibited at CES but has been refined a lot in recent months. It works on both LCD/LED and OLED TVs and can reproduce 3D without any need for 3D glasses. It is reported that the 3D effect is upheld from all angles, near and far.

The technology utilizes the extremely high 4K resolution, where enough pixels are available to create the illusion of 3D. 3D images on the TV are not rendered in full 4K resolution but are more detailed than Full HD, according to Stream TV. Additionally, Ultra D requires a chip in the TV that takes care of image processing, and a thin film in front of the TV that spreads light. The film does not affect 2D picture quality, viewing angles or brightness of the TV panel, according to the company.

Ultra D will be integrated into the first TVs before 2013 ends. More specifically in Chinese Hisense’s new Ultra HD TVs that will be available in USA and other markets in 50, 58 and 65 inch sizes. The technology is also heading for a 31-inch 4K PC monitor."
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post #101 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 12:10 PM
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Love the potential game-changers, which is what this might be.

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post #102 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 12:20 PM
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Sounds like a variation on the technology the 3DS uses. They're claiming unlimited viewing angles, which seems extremely unlikely... Could end up being true, but these kinds of press releases are usually a lot of hot air with nothing to back it up.

Edit: I did find one video from CES where the narrator said that the viewing angle was "wider than expected," so I'd be happy to be proven wrong here. That statement also makes it clear that the viewing angle is not as wide as the press release would suggest, but you don't need that wide of an angle for non-casual viewing (and I don't think anyone wants to watch the news out of the corner of their eye in 3D). Of course this is CES content we're talking about, so even this 3rd party video sounds like a lot of marketing BS.

It would definitely be a major change for home 3D technology, but I'm afraid that even that kind of tech change will have no effect unless someone can push the content. BD 3D movies isn't going to cut it; the average TV owner does not own a BD player (nor do they want to.. most consider physical media obsolete tech at this point) and does all of their viewing from cable/sat or streaming services like Netflix, so until 3D content is in those channels it basically doesn't exist for the majority of users.
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post #103 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 01:09 PM
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I don't think 3D is dead. I think maybe everyone jumped the gun on it, but you have to start somewhere. I don't care much for live action in 3D simply because I find it distracting to have to refocus my eyes when the plane that's in focus changes. With a wider DOF, or in the case of CGI where the entire scene could be rendered "in focus," I like it. I get annoyed when I see something added to a scene for no other reason than to have something pop out. I understand the main purpose of 3D is to see some depth, but I don't like garbage that's added solely for that purpose.

I think it'll improve as directors learn to better use it? I highly doubt when sound or color was added to films that people were using it the way it's used now. Did the first films with audio use sound to set an atmosphere the way they do now? Over/under saturate color for the same reasons? I think, with time, 3D will move from being an object flying at you from the screen and saying HEY LOOK I'M 3D!!! to something that will actually make the experience more immersive.

Gaming is where I have a huge interest in 3D, and I think will be the biggest driving force... Since games are rendered in real time, the DOF issue I have with live action films will not be an issue. My current issue with 3D gaming resides with HDMI. Can I have 1080p60 3D, please?

As others stated, 3D is more or less a "cheap" addition to TVs, and I don't see the support going away. As the tech improves and more 3D TVs exist in homes, I think it'll grow. Right now the excitement over something new has died down and should grow as the tech and content improves.

I will say, 3D post-conversion for CGI really, really bugs me. I didn't think studios would actually do that. I understand the rendering will take twice as long, but, cmon...
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post #104 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 01:47 PM
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"As others stated, 3D is more or less a "cheap" addition to TVs, and I don't see the support going away."

It probably won't go away, but it's already being ignored by consumers.

And 3-D ticket sales are hitting record lows this summer as a percentage of tickets sold at the movies.

Why people believe these trends are going to reverse is something of a mystery to me.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #105 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 02:00 PM
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It's a marketing gimmick and I think it's going to become harder and harder to find a 2D TV. Whether consumers actually use it or not, I don't see them choosing a 2D TV if there's a 3D one in the same budget. I just don't believe it will ever "die."

I still stand by gamers, at least the "hardcore" gamers, will be most likely to use 3D. Once support improves.
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post #106 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

It's a marketing gimmick and I think it's going to become harder and harder to find a 2D TV. Whether consumers actually use it or not, I don't see them choosing a 2D TV if there's a 3D one in the same budget. I just don't believe it will ever "die."

I still stand by gamers, at least the "hardcore" gamers, will be most likely to use 3D. Once support improves.

Edited to make it shorter.

That's probably true, but it's not the "hardcore" group so much as just mainstream gamers. Hardcore gamers are crazy, like me, and may do things like build a PC designed to push 120+ frames in Battlefield 3 to a LightBoost monitor hacked to strobe in 2D mode so they can get CRT motion clarity at 120hz. Yeeeeah. Basically Hardcore usually refers to competitive gamers, and competitive gamers avoid things that give them a competitive disadvantage like 3D. So even though the much more common hardcore console gamer isn't running some crazy rig, they're going to turn off 3D as soon as they realize it makes it MUCH harder to tell what's happening on screen and get on target.

The people who will want 3D are the (larger?) group who play games like Skyrim, Assassin's Creed, shooters in single player story mode, basically anything you might attach the word "immersion" to. There's usually not a huge desire to invest in gaming tech in this group (most probably just own a console) so the 3D needs to work without hassle and not cost a significant amount. It also can't significantly compromise the visual fidelity of the game, since we're talking about players who are half in it to enjoy the visual experience (3D requires rendering 2x the frames, so the usual solution is to turn graphics quality down). Obviously we're talking about next generation consoles at minimum, PC for some (however PC players won't be happy with 2x30fps 3D, they'll want the full 2x60fps and thus need more expensive hardware).

Eh... it still seems like a tough road now that I think about it. The one good thing I can say about the 3D push is that it's forced panel makers to step it up. Plasmas can do 120hz now (only at 720P due to HDMI limitations but still impressive). LCD panels have much faster pixel transition times now because they need to be faster to avoid ghosting the previous frame. That LightBoost monitor I mentioned only exists because NVidia developed the tech for 3D.
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post #107 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 05:03 PM
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You could hardly expect to have had a large supply of home content created before 3D technology was first introduced on TV sets, and when it was, they were charging a fairly steep premium for those sets, when there was no content available to watch on them. It is far too soon to be predicting how it will turn out in the long run.

I say this as a person who does not care if it catches on or not, and to date, I have not gone to see even one movie in 3D.
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post #108 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 05:31 PM
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You could hardly expect to have had a large supply of home content created before 3D technology was first introduced on TV sets, and when it was, they were charging a fairly steep premium for those sets, when there was no content available to watch on them. It is far too soon to be predicting how it will turn out in the long run.

The problem is they ... I need a SFW version of the analogy I was going to use... released the balloons way too early? Hung the Mission Accomplished banner ahead of schedule? Instead of engaging in a quiet saturation of the market with 3D-capable TVs (and not making a big deal until content was available) they used 3D as their primary marketing push for several years. So at this point the average consumer has been hearing about nonexistent 3D for a long time and they just couldn't care less, it's just more marketing noise they tune out. People may not think this is a big deal, but it's huge and it's the reason these companies are going to go quiet about 3D for a little bit. This happened because TV manufacturers are flat out desperate; their business models are collapsing (see: Pioneer, then Panasonic, plus TV sales in general). Now, you're right, the long-term result is the same either way: Eventually everyone owns a 3D TV and the content comes simply because there's no reason for it not to. I just think the way they ended up doing it has actually delayed this development, because now we have to wait until people care about 3D again or at least aren't tired of hearing about it.

We'll probably hear about 3D again after manufacturers get tired of trying to push 4K panels on the basis of upscaling (what?). By that point maybe they'll realize that 4K is the perfect compliment to 3D since it's the only way to get 1080P 3D. In fact, this may be why they're pushing 4K and they just don't want to get the word "3D" in there until some time has passed.
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post #109 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 05:58 PM
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The problem is they ... I need a SFW version of the analogy I was going to use... released the balloons way too early? Hung the Mission Accomplished banner ahead of schedule? Instead of engaging in a quiet saturation of the market with 3D-capable TVs (and not making a big deal until content was available) they used 3D as their primary marketing push for several years. So at this point the average consumer has been hearing about nonexistent 3D for a long time and they just couldn't care less, it's just more marketing noise they tune out. People may not think this is a big deal, but it's huge and it's the reason these companies are going to go quiet about 3D for a little bit. This happened because TV manufacturers are flat out desperate; their business models are collapsing (see: Pioneer, then Panasonic, plus TV sales in general). Now, you're right, the long-term result is the same either way: Eventually everyone owns a 3D TV and the content comes simply because there's no reason for it not to. I just think the way they ended up doing it has actually delayed this development, because now we have to wait until people care about 3D again or at least aren't tired of hearing about it.

We'll probably hear about 3D again after manufacturers get tired of trying to push 4K panels on the basis of upscaling (what?). By that point maybe they'll realize that 4K is the perfect compliment to 3D since it's the only way to get 1080P 3D. In fact, this may be why they're pushing 4K and they just don't want to get the word "3D" in there until some time has passed.

They were desperately trying to find something to use to persuade consumers to go purchase a new HDTV so soon after most of them had just purchased their very first one, because of the mandated analog to digital conversion deadline. Most consumers have not been in the habit of buying new replacement TVs ever couple of years or so, and the manufacturers were trying to make them feel like if they did not rush to get on the 3D bandwagon, their lives would be ruined forever. It might have had some success if they had first worked with the studios to have a reasonable sized library of 3D movies available to watch on those brand new sets. They had none at all. It was like selling an expensive new model car, that required a very special blend of fuel, that still had not been produced and made available for the customers.
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post #110 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 06:48 AM
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Agree completely on the last few points. It's, more than anything, a marketing tactic.

As far as "hardcore" gamers, the ones you listed as "mainstream" are the ones I was referring to, so a bad word choice on my part. In most cases I've seen "hardcore" used in relation to the ones that wouldn't be considered "casual," but it's a better fit for those going to the extremes you're talking about. Primary point was that the non-casual gamers will, I believe, be one of the bigger users of 3D. It's what motivated me to get the ST50 over the S64 -- just to have the option to play games in 3D, even if it's at the sad 30fps.

I think the display manufacturers are just trimmed down right now. There was an explosion of sales as HDTVs came into existence and the prices dropped into the "cheap" realm. Now everyone has one and the manufacturers are still adjusting to, what I believe, is the normal market for the foreseeable future. I personally don't plan to buy a new TV until I can get 4K and 1080p60 3D OLED.
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post #111 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by headlesschickens View Post

The problem is they ... I need a SFW version of the analogy I was going to use... released the balloons way too early? Hung the Mission Accomplished banner ahead of schedule? Instead of engaging in a quiet saturation of the market with 3D-capable TVs (and not making a big deal until content was available) they used 3D as their primary marketing push for several years.

 

That is how every single bleeding edge "thing" is created.  There're no bad guys here.  Something new on the horizon and it becomes a race to get the current state of it out.  There is no sensible nor even adult argument of looking at the release of 3D in its current forms and saying "that was stupid to do so early."  There just is not.  Especially since there are so many of us that love it as it is.  My kids and I just watched Rise of the Guardians in 3D last night (2K passive) and it was fantastic.


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post #112 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 09:56 AM
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On today's AVS "front page" Mark Henninger got to eyeball StreamTV's glasses-less Ultra-D 3D technology. To me it does sound like a game changer. And, from other reports I've read, this technology produces a bright image...something critical for good 3D.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486062/seeing-ultra-d-for-myself
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post #113 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 10:35 AM
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On today's AVS "front page" Mark Henninger got to eyeball StreamTV's glasses-less Ultra-D 3D technology. To me it does sound like a game changer. And, from other reports I've read, this technology produces a bright image...something critical for good 3D.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486062/seeing-ultra-d-for-myself

 

Couldn't these guys have just called it "glasses free 3D" instead yet ANOTHER esoteric AV term to confound the public?????????  Ultra-D verses UHD vs. vs. vs. vs.  How on EARTH is the general public supposed to NOT be scared into paralysis-holding-off-non-buying mode???


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post #114 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 10:59 AM
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Couldn't these guys have just called it "glasses free 3D" instead yet ANOTHER esoteric AV term to confound the public?????????  Ultra-D verses UHD vs. vs. vs. vs.  How on EARTH is the general public supposed to NOT be scared into paralysis-holding-off-non-buying mode???

That should not be an obstacle, if the product works as it is being described. The general public will see them displaying 3D in the stores, without them having to wear special 3D glasses. Joe Sixpack will have it staring him right in the face, so if it captivates him, he will ask how much is one of them, and not even have to wade through any of the techno-babble that you are concerned about.smile.gif
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post #115 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Couldn't these guys have just called it "glasses free 3D" instead yet ANOTHER esoteric AV term to confound the public?????????  Ultra-D verses UHD vs. vs. vs. vs.  How on EARTH is the general public supposed to NOT be scared into paralysis-holding-off-non-buying mode???

That should not be an obstacle, if the product works as it is being described. The general public will see them displaying 3D in the stores, without them having to wear special 3D glasses. Joe Sixpack will have it staring him right in the face, so if it captivates him, he will ask how much is one of them, and not even have to wade through any of the techno-babble that you are concerned about.smile.gif

 

Well, I hope you're right.  But take a closer look at the commonly scared look of the average person walking into bestbuy.  Perhaps it's because I'm looking for them.  But so many people are so afraid of being taken for a ride with this stuff that I do think that a myriad of nonsensical terms do make them truly wonder what they're getting.  In the future, I really believe that just the ultra-D vs. UHD will be enough to make them wonder: am I getting screwed.

 

Maybe the bestbuy sales folk here will counter what I'm saying, which I'll welcome.  But I'm the "go to" guy for all things technical among friends and family (like nearly everyone here) and there's so much confusion about nearly everything, and it's primarily the ever growing stack of terms that have no meaning unto themselves.  The press is confusing them into thinking that they're fools to buy 3D, this 4K stuff is scaring them into (this has happened twice) thinking that their 2K TV will no longer "work" somehow, and I'm sure this list will go on.  Oh and two other people were convinced that a 3D TV cannot display 2D images.


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post #116 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 02:23 PM
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Well, I hope you're right.  But take a closer look at the commonly scared look of the average person walking into bestbuy.  Perhaps it's because I'm looking for them.  But so many people are so afraid of being taken for a ride with this stuff that I do think that a myriad of nonsensical terms do make them truly wonder what they're getting.  In the future, I really believe that just the ultra-D vs. UHD will be enough to make them wonder: am I getting screwed.

Maybe the bestbuy sales folk here will counter what I'm saying, which I'll welcome.  But I'm the "go to" guy for all things technical among friends and family (like nearly everyone here) and there's so much confusion about nearly everything, and it's primarily the ever growing stack of terms that have no meaning unto themselves.  The press is confusing them into thinking that they're fools to buy 3D, this 4K stuff is scaring them into (this has happened twice) thinking that their 2K TV will no longer "work" somehow, and I'm sure this list will go on.  Oh and two other people were convinced that a 3D TV cannot display 2D images.

Of course we will have to wait and see if people experience any side effects from watching this new 3D technology, such as blurred vision, headaches, or having to see the doctor whenever a projection lasts more than four hours!
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post #117 of 398 Old 08-15-2013, 04:36 PM
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LOL!  What I really love about those commercials is the implied "but 3 hours and 50 minutes is A-ok."
 


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post #118 of 398 Old 08-16-2013, 07:13 AM
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LOL!  What I really love about those commercials is the implied "but 3 hours and 50 minutes is A-ok."

 

Yup, I always thought that was more of a promise than a warning.

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post #119 of 398 Old 08-18-2013, 01:23 PM
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It has a tremendous amount to do with the source, and how the filmmaker regards the use of convergence.  Movies these days when done properly don't employ "pop out" so much as a 3D image that descends into the TV.  IMO it helps keep movies from being the slap-in-your-face 3D for 3D's sake.  Instead of its most valuable reason for existence: further immersion into the storyline.  A great 3D movie like Avatar made me completely forget it was 3D, and helped me "live" the experience.  There were plenty of pop out scenes in that movie, but carefully chosen, and never to the extent that it felt as if it were the goal.

When I mean that I have problems with pop out anything at all that is in front of the screen gives me problems. Even if its some scenery coming out of the screen it appears blurry. I changed the viewpoint setting on my lg plasma so there is no pop out and it works much better for me but I don't have the directors intent like this either. I'm not sure if all 3d sets have that option or how it affects the pq otherwise. I am at a crossroads because of this issue so I'm debating on if I should stick to buying 2d only content.
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post #120 of 398 Old 08-18-2013, 01:54 PM
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So something I've noticed: when I have my contacts in my 3D viewing is wonderful. When I wear my glasses, which are a slightly old prescription I get headaches and tired eyes and it dosent look the same. Just thought I'd share and see if anyone else has had the same experience
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