Will OLED have better motion resolution and input lag than LCD and Plasma Tv's? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 89 Old 07-19-2013, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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As you know, if you are a serious gamer, LCD and Plasma Tvs have bad input lag AND motion resolution compared to traditional CRTs.

I am hoping that OLED 1080p TVs will have much less input lag (less than 16 ms) and much better motion resolution (above 1000 at least). And these two values should occur at the same time, since from what I have seen in Plasma's, they have motion resolution above 1000 but they have much higher input lag (around 60-70 ms), but when you turn on game mode and turn of all processing, the motion resolution drops to below 700 and the input lag gets better (around 32 ms).

So will OLED tv's have better motion resolution and input lag at the same time with all processing turned off?
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post #2 of 89 Old 07-20-2013, 03:40 AM
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If you're a "serious" gamer, you should be using a Lightboost monitor. Those have the lowest amount of lag, and motion handling of any flat panel available. As good, or better than some CRTs.
OLED should not have any trouble with panel-based motion blur, but is probably going to be quite bad for motion blur caused by retinal persistence.

Input lag is largely determined by the image processing.
And while plasmas have higher input lag numbers, they do update the panel progressively rather than line-by-line like LCDs do, so higher numbers may subjectively feel the same. Unfortunately, I think OLED addresses the panel line-by-line too.
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post #3 of 89 Old 07-20-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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But will the Lightboost monitor work for console games? It seems to imply that it will only work for PC games, especially ones with high end Nvidia graphics card. I also heard that the Lightboost monitor has flicker in it.

Also could you elaborate on "OLED should not have any trouble with panel-based motion blur, but is probably going to be quite bad for motion blur caused by retinal persistence" What do you mean by retinal persistence?
I always thought there is only one kind of motion blur which are caused by high response times of the panel?
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post #4 of 89 Old 07-20-2013, 04:07 PM
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You should really read this thread just a few posts below yours:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433254/lcd-motion-blur-eye-tracking-now-dominant-cause-of-motion-blur-not-pixel-persistence

Basically, in order to perceive a blur-free image, the display needs to strobe light in some way. While this may cause some visible flicker for some, it is how CRT achieved the unmatched motion quality.

As far as we know, all upcoming OLED TVs do not use strobing. They rely on motion interpolation to reduce blur. This will likely cause some input lag. Blur should be slightly less than an LCD because the pixels can switch states much faster.

Also, the Lightboost strobing is not compatible with consoles. It's not even fully compatible with most PC games that can't run reliably at 120+ fps.
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post #5 of 89 Old 07-20-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

You should really read this thread just a few posts below yours:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433254/lcd-motion-blur-eye-tracking-now-dominant-cause-of-motion-blur-not-pixel-persistence

Basically, in order to perceive a blur-free image, the display needs to strobe light in some way. While this may cause some visible flicker for some, it is how CRT achieved the unmatched motion quality.

As far as we know, all upcoming OLED TVs do not use strobing. They rely on motion interpolation to reduce blur. This will likely cause some input lag. Blur should be slightly less than an LCD because the pixels can switch states much faster.

Also, the Lightboost strobing is not compatible with consoles. It's not even fully compatible with most PC games that can't run reliably at 120+ fps.

 

IIRC, Mark Rejhon was the first to bring up a question as to whether or not OLED panels are bright enough to pulse.  It would be very unfortunate if this remains true because it requires that the interpolation must always be at a high enough rate to keep the retinal "smearing" short.


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post #6 of 89 Old 07-20-2013, 09:35 PM
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Well Sony's OLED monitors are scanning displays, they aren't sample & hold. But they won't be comparable to Lightboost displays either. (but then, nothing but CRT is)
The advantage of OLED is that there won't be any residual ghosting caused by the panel in motion.
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post #7 of 89 Old 07-21-2013, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Well Sony's OLED monitors are scanning displays, they aren't sample & hold. But they won't be comparable to Lightboost displays either. (but then, nothing but CRT is)
The advantage of OLED is that there won't be any residual ghosting caused by the panel in motion.

Correct. And this is evident from slight flicker visible in video footage captured of the Sony monitors. Same flicker is usually visible in Plasma and scanning LCD captures. All similar video captures of LG and Samsung OLED TVs at trade shows have 0 flicker visible. Also the 56" Sony/Panasonic prototypes.

We will only know for sure once they are released. It's possible that for whatever reason the existing video captures just didn't show the flicker. Or maybe there is an advanced motion enhancement setting that is disabled by default - no way to know since full user manuals have not been publishes online.
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post #8 of 89 Old 07-21-2013, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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So how does a Plama Tv achieve good motion resolution? I though the reason Plasma had better motion was due to them having a much lesser pixel response time than an LCD? Do Plasma TV's also strobe light?
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post #9 of 89 Old 07-21-2013, 11:04 PM
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Plasmas are impulse based, just like CRTs, so they usually have decent motion performance. They, however, are not strobe-driven, so they are inferior to lightboost LCDs.
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post #10 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Plasmas are impulse based, just like CRTs, so they usually have decent motion performance. They, however, are not strobe-driven, so they are inferior to lightboost LCDs.

 

CRT's are not "impulse based" in the same way as a plasma, nor as with an OLED.  CRT's have a sweep mechanism that goes through an aperture grill so that the electron beam can slam the correct phosphor (and eclipse the neighboring ones), and this behaves as a well defined "pulse", but CRTs have no ability to lengthen that pulse nor even manage multiple strobings at a pixel by pixel basis.

 

Plasma's are required to do the multiple pulsing (that's the only way an excited plasma can emit---it can't stay on), while OLED's can do either sample-and-hold or pulse (again: IF they are bright enough) because they're "on" for as long as the circuitry wants.


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post #11 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Well Sony's OLED monitors are scanning displays, they aren't sample & hold.


They're only scanning displays because the circuitry is choosing to turn them on in a scanning fashion.  Unlike a CRT, there is nothing at the OLED level *requiring* that they turn on and off in a top to bottom fashion.  Each sub pixel is independently addressable at anytime the firmware wants, correct?


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post #12 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

They're only scanning displays because the circuitry is choosing to turn them on in a scanning fashion.
Well they are doing that to improve motion resolution with less dimming than completely strobing the panel would cause.
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Unlike a CRT, there is nothing at the OLED level *requiring* that they turn on and off in a top to bottom fashion.  Each sub pixel is independently addressable at anytime the firmware wants, correct?
You know, I'm not really sure. Can OLED be addressed progressively like a Plasma, or does it have to be updated line-by-line like an LCD?
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post #13 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by hcps-sulemanma View Post

So will OLED tv's have better motion resolution and input lag at the same time with all processing turned off?

Believe it or not this question always comes down to frame rate. Effective strobing simply can't be done at conventional frame rates (60/30/24). There is too much flicker....too much "blank time" before the next frame shows up. Manufacturers will never release sets with effective strobing and people won't accept it. Period. It just won't happen. Plasma had the best flicker-to-blur ratio with these frame rates. Yet flicker was noticeable and motion resolution still not CRT-level. Improving motion resolution means shorter strobes/more flicker. A higher frame rate is needed to offset this, and simply repeating frames does not work. The only other way is through interpolation which nobody wants (for a couple good reasons) Raising frame rates allows effective strobing without flicker and brightens the picture. The latter is especially important to AMOLED since driving voltages will be less and the lifetime problem (which is looking real serious) decreases.

What happens to legacy media if they ever did raise frame rates. Will they be forever stuck in 24p land or doomed to interpolation?
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post #14 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 10:05 AM
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I am rooting for OLED's success.
That said, there is a lot of hoops for OLED to jump through, before it becomes a true motion-resolution replacement for plasma (or high end strobe-backlight LCD's).
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But will the Lightboost monitor work for console games?
LightBoost functions is artificially-limited to function at refresh rates near 120Hz native, and consoles do not support 120Hz at this time. LightBoost is a strobe backlight feature, that make the monitor behave as if it was a 120Hz CRT.

That said, there are similar variants such as Sony's new Motionflow Impulse (a strobe backlight in Sony HDTV's similiar to LightBoost). For a better understanding, see TFTCentral: Motion Blur Reduction Backlights (Including LightBoost) where it was shown that strobe backlights massively outperformed yesterday's scanning backlights, and allowed LCD to finally have extremely high motion resolution (even surpassing plasma, in the case of LightBoost).
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Lightboost monitor has flicker in it.
Less visible flicker than a plasma. Although plasmas have a 600Hz subfield rate, the bright subfields are clustered close together, so plasmas often visibly flicker at far less than 600Hz.

Flicker is one method of reducing motion blur. You eliminate sample-and-hold motion blur by shortening the visibility of individual refresh themselves. This is achieved in two ways: Raising the Hz (and interpolating the frames), or inserting black gaps between the Hz (ala flicker, black frame insertion, strobe backlight, scanning backlight, or another method of black period.)
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I always thought there is only one kind of motion blur which are caused by high response times of the panel?
Nope. There's an additional cause of motion blur. You forgot the sample-and-hold effect, the motion blur caused by eye tracking. CRT / LightBoost solve this problem, and plasmas are usually far better than LCD at solving this problem.
See these links:

1. TestUFO Motion Animation: Eye Tracking Motion Blur
www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking
(due to animation precision, please view in Chrome, IE10, Opera15+ or the FF24+ pre-beta)
You can see for yourself that this motion blur is NOT caused by pixel transition speed alone. See for yourself.

2. Why Do Some OLED's Have Motion Blur?
www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur

I am excited about OLED, they just have to make sure to avoid these technological gotchas.
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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #15 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Less visible flicker than a plasma. Although plasmas have a 600Hz subfield rate, the bright subfields are clustered close together, so plasmas often visibly flicker at far less than 600Hz.

Flicker is one method of reducing motion blur. You eliminate sample-and-hold motion blur by shortening the visibility of individual refresh themselves. This is achieved in two ways: Raising the Hz (and interpolating the frames), or inserting black gaps between the Hz (ala flicker, black frame insertion, strobe backlight, scanning backlight, or another method of black period.)
Nope. There's an additional cause of motion blur. You forgot the sample-and-hold effect, the motion blur caused by eye tracking. CRT / LightBoost solve this problem, and plasmas are usually far better than LCD at solving this problem.
See these links:

www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur

I am excited about OLED, they just have to make sure to avoid these technological gotchas.

Thanks Mark, I think I understand motion blur a little better now (but still not fully).

But what about the new Panasonic Plasmas with their 3000 Focused Field Drive (Like Panasonic VT60), does that have less flicker and better motion resolution than LightBoost? And does the 3000 Focused Field Drive introduce input lag?
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post #16 of 89 Old 07-22-2013, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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So for gaming at either 30fps@60Hz or 60fps@60Hz only at 1080p in a medium lit room (specifically for console games), which is best technology to use that has all three areas covered: Input Lag, Motion Resolution (Both Pixel Response Time and Eye-Tracking Blur), and Flicker?

Is Plasma the best compromise across all three categories? Even better than CRT?

Also for a 1080p TV, isn't the highest motion resolution technically possible to be 1080? Why do I see it, like at Cnet, that TV's have motion resolution at 1200?
Or is motion resolution measured by the amount of horizontal pixels, which would mean the highest motion resolution possible for a 1080p TV (16:9) is 1920?
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post #17 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcps-sulemanma View Post

So for gaming at either 30fps@60Hz or 60fps@60Hz only at 1080p (specifically for console games)
30fps at 60Hz sucks, and gets worse as the display's motion handling improves.
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Lag, Motion Resolution (Both Pixel Response Time and Eye-Tracking Blur), and Flicker?
Motion resolution is almost entirely dependent on flicker when you cannot increase the framerate. (most panels are fast enough now that they are not the main problem)
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Is Plasma the best compromise across all three categories? Even better than CRT?
Plasma is far worse than CRT for motion handling, and worse than scanning/strobing LED backlights - but better than regular sample & hold LCD.

You may with wish to use an LCD in its Sample & Hold mode if you plan on displaying 30fps at 60Hz though. For the lowest input lag, and retinal persistence, I would recommend one of the new Sony W LCDs - they have the lowest lag measured of any TV, the best motion handling in their "impulse" mode, and you can disable it to use them as a Sample & Hold display to reduce judder with 30fps content.
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Also for a 1080p TV, isn't the highest motion resolution technically possible to be 1080? Why do I see it, like at Cnet, that TV's have motion resolution at 1200?
The tests are usually vertical bars on-screen which move horizontally at varying speeds. Frankly, I don't think they are very useful. Most of the tests still move at relatively slow speeds, and don't have much bearing on real-world content.
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post #18 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 03:26 AM - Thread Starter
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You may with to use an LCD in its Sample & Hold mode if you plan on displaying 30fps at 60Hz though. For the lowest input lag, and retinal persistence, I would recommend one of the new Sony W LCDs - they have the lowest lag measured of any TV, the best motion handling in their "impulse" mode, and you can disable it to use them as a Sample & Hold display to reduce judder with 30fps content.
The tests are usually vertical bars on-screen which move horizontally at varying speeds. Frankly, I don't think they are very useful. Most of the tests still move at relatively slow speeds, and don't have much bearing on real-world content.

Are you saying that for 30 fps, we want to have Sample and Hold display (LCD) that has bad motion "resolution" for it to have good motion "handling" ?
Since at Cnet Sony W LCD have very low motion resolution, 300, when all processing is off with input lag of 16 ms.
Also would enabling their "impulse" mode, that increases the motion resolution, introduce more input lag and flicker?

Also are you saying for 60 fps we would want an Impulse based display (plasma or CRT, or impulse LCD) that has good motion "resolution" for it to have good motion "handling"? Also don't CRT tv's (and impulse LCDs) have more visible flicker than plasma at 60 fps? Isn't that the reason why CRT and Impulse LCDs have better motion resolution in the first place?


Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
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post #19 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 04:19 AM
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Are you saying that for 30 fps, we want to have Sample and Hold display (LCD) that has bad motion "resolution" for it to have good motion "handling" ?
With a sample and hold display, you should not suffer from the judder that is caused by repeating frames. This is a big problem on other displays. 30fps at 60Hz judders like crazy on a CRT, Plasma, or LCD utilizing a scanning/strobing backlight.
With something like the Sony W series, you can choose whether you prefer the lower motion resolution and judder of sample & hold, or higher motion resolution & judder of impulse mode.

Neither is a great compromise though - I just stopped playing console games and moved to PC instead, where everything is locked to 60fps on my system which avoids this problem.
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Since at Cnet Sony W LCD have very low motion resolution, 300, when all processing is off with input lag of 16 ms.
Also would enabling their "impulse" mode, that increases the motion resolution, introduce more input lag and flicker?
I was under the impression that impulse mode added minimal lag, if any.
"300" is the best any sample & hold display can do, no matter whether it's an LCD or an OLED. As you reduce the duty cycle (introducing flicker) or increase the framerate & refresh rate, motion resolution increases.

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Also are you saying for 60 fps we would want an Impulse based display (plasma or CRT, or impulse LCD) that has good motion "resolution" for it to have good motion "handling"?
When the framerate is equal to the refresh rate, using an impulse-based display no longer suffers from judder caused by frame repeats. However, depending on the duty cycle, you may see flicker, because 60Hz is still relatively low.
This is why Lightboost monitors, which have the lowest duty cycle of any display being sold today, are using 120Hz rather than 60Hz; but you need your games to be running at 120fps to avoid judder.
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Also don't CRT tv's (and impulse LCDs) have more visible flicker than plasma at 60 fps? Isn't that the reason why CRT and Impulse LCDs have better motion resolution in the first place?
Personally I found Plasma's pulse-width-modulation flicker to be more problematic than either CRT or "Impulse LCDs." With a CRT or impulse LCD, I get used to the flicker after a few minutes, and don't notice it any more.
With the variable frequency of the Plasma flicker, it was constantly an issue, and I get headaches from watching them.

As I said before though, without increasing the framerate, you have to compromise between motion handling and flicker. We are mostly past the point where the panel response time is the limiting factor, and it is retinal persistence that causes motion blur.
The only way to reduce retinal persistence is to either "strobe" the image which introduces flicker, use interpolation to increase the framerate & refresh rate without introducing flicker, a combination of the two, or move to a natively higher framerate & refresh rate.
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post #20 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 06:56 AM
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Still having the hardest time reading this because to me the moment I see "judder" I see "telecine judder" and when I see "flicker" I see "persistence of vision based flicker" not "pulse" which is the meaning.
 


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post #21 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hcps-sulemanma View Post

Also would enabling their "impulse" mode, that increases the motion resolution, introduce more input lag and flicker?

According to HDTVtest impulse adds 10ms lag which is good. Flicker increases though. They say you might not like that, but i'm looking into this set anyway.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl55w905a-201305172987.htm?page=Performance
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post #22 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 08:15 AM
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Still having the hardest time reading this because to me the moment I see "judder" I see "telecine judder" and when I see "flicker" I see "persistence of vision based flicker" not "pulse" which is the meaning.
Telecine judder is caused by uneven frame repeats, to fit 24fps into a 60Hz refresh rate. Telecine judder no longer exists today.

Judder has many causes, one of which is low framerates (including native 24fps content) and another is caused by repeating frames on an impulse-type display.
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According to HDTVtest impulse adds 10ms lag which is good. Flicker increases though. They say you might not like that, but i'm looking into this set anyway.
That still puts it better or on par with anything else you can buy today.
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post #23 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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According to HDTVtest impulse adds 10ms lag which is good. Flicker increases though. They say you might not like that, but i'm looking into this set anyway.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl55w905a-201305172987.htm?page=Performance

So with impulse mode the input lag goes to 30 ms, which is still great, but flicker increases and brightness drops. Now is the low brightness really that bad for a medium lit room? Is the brightness lower than a plasma tv?

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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

With a sample and hold display, you should not suffer from the judder that is caused by repeating frames. This is a big problem on other displays. 30fps at 60Hz judders like crazy on a CRT, Plasma, or LCD utilizing a scanning/strobing backlight.
With something like the Sony W series, you can choose whether you prefer the lower motion resolution and judder of sample & hold, or higher motion resolution & judder of impulse mode.

Neither is a great compromise though - I just stopped playing console games and moved to PC instead, where everything is locked to 60fps on my system which avoids this problem.
I was under the impression that impulse mode added minimal lag, if any.
"300" is the best any sample & hold display can do, no matter whether it's an LCD or an OLED. As you reduce the duty cycle (introducing flicker) or increase the framerate & refresh rate, motion resolution increases.
When the framerate is equal to the refresh rate, using an impulse-based display no longer suffers from judder caused by frame repeats. However, depending on the duty cycle, you may see flicker, because 60Hz is still relatively low.
This is why Lightboost monitors, which have the lowest duty cycle of any display being sold today, are using 120Hz rather than 60Hz; but you need your games to be running at 120fps to avoid judder.
Personally I found Plasma's pulse-width-modulation flicker to be more problematic than either CRT or "Impulse LCDs." With a CRT or impulse LCD, I get used to the flicker after a few minutes, and don't notice it any more.
With the variable frequency of the Plasma flicker, it was constantly an issue, and I get headaches from watching them.

As I said before though, without increasing the framerate, you have to compromise between motion handling and flicker. We are mostly past the point where the panel response time is the limiting factor, and it is retinal persistence that causes motion blur.
The only way to reduce retinal persistence is to either "strobe" the image which introduces flicker, use interpolation to increase the framerate & refresh rate without introducing flicker, a combination of the two, or move to a natively higher framerate & refresh rate.

So flicker of a Plasma TV has variable frequency whereas the flicker of an impulse LCD or CRT has a constant frequency? Now the question remains which flicker is more visible? Of course the constant frequency flicker is better than variable I would assume, but still which is more visible?

And for 30 fps, the best option is to use a sample and hold LCD display like the Sony W series 240 Hz LCD, which would hold 1 frame for 8Hz, so you get 30 frames per 240 Hz. If we enable Impulse mode for 30 fps, does it insert a black frame after 4 Hz or after 1 Hz, meaning hold 1 frame for 4 Hz and then add/hold 1 black frame for 4 Hz
OR does it hold 1 frame for 1 Hz add 1 black frame for 1 Hz then bring back the same 1 frame again for 1 Hz and then add 1 black frame for 1 Hz and repeat this process again so you get 8 Hz. I would imagine the former would have better motion for 30 fps than the latter, but I assume that latter one is the technique used by Sony's Impulse mode for 30 fps?

And for 60 fps, the best option is to use the impulse mode of Sony W series 240 Hz LCD, where they hold 1 frame for 2 Hz and then add 1 black frame for 2 Hz , or do they hold 1 frame for 1 Hz and then add 1 black frame for 1 Hz and then bring back that 1 frame again for 1 Hz and then add 1 black frame for 1 Hz? I would imagine the former being better again, is that the technique that Sony uses?

To me it seems that the best technology for 30 fps and 60 fps (console games specifically) would be a technology that can fully control both its Sample and Hold feature and Impulse feature based on what settings we choose for fps we are feeding it, which at moment looks like the Sony W LCD can do in limited scope but still not fully?
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post #24 of 89 Old 07-23-2013, 08:01 PM
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Now is the low brightness really that bad for a medium lit room? Is the brightness lower than a plasma tv?
It depends on the plasma but it should still be fine. You would have to see for yourself though.
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So flicker of a Plasma TV has variable frequency whereas the flicker of an impulse LCD or CRT has a constant frequency? Now the question remains which flicker is more visible? Of course the constant frequency flicker is better than variable I would assume, but still which is more visible?
I personally find plasma flicker to be more visible than CRT/Impulse LCD, because I never get used to it. CRT/Impulse LCD flicker is more obvious initially, but I stop noticing it very quickly. You may or may not feel the same way.
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And for 30 fps, the best option is to use a sample and hold LCD display like the Sony W series 240 Hz LCD, which would hold 1 frame for 8Hz, so you get 30 frames per 240 Hz.
If it's sample & hold, it's effectively 30fps at 30Hz because the panel is not updating until it is sent a new frame.

With an impulse-based display, if you are displaying 30fps at 60Hz, you have judder because each frame is being displayed twice with a gap in-between them. (which varies depending on the duty cycle of the display)
With a 120Hz impulse display such as a Lightboost monitor, you have even worse judder, because you are now repeating the 30fps image four times.

This is the problem with trying to balance motion resolution (clarity) with motion smoothness. (judder)
The only real solution is to move away from a 30fps source.
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If we enable Impulse mode for 30 fps, does it insert a black frame after 4 Hz or after 1 Hz, meaning hold 1 frame for 4 Hz and then add/hold 1 black frame for 4 Hz
OR does it hold 1 frame for 1 Hz add 1 black frame for 1 Hz then bring back the same 1 frame again for 1 Hz and then add 1 black frame for 1 Hz and repeat this process again so you get 8 Hz. I would imagine the former would have better motion for 30 fps than the latter, but I assume that latter one is the technique used by Sony's Impulse mode for 30 fps?
Mark Rejhon would probably know more about this. I'm not certain on the specifics of how many frame repeats/blank frames Sony are using on the latest model.

Please note that "1Hz" means one image per second. I think you mean "frame" rather than "Hz".
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To me it seems that the best technology for 30 fps and 60 fps (console games specifically) would be a technology that can fully control both its Sample and Hold feature and Impulse feature based on what settings we choose for fps we are feeding it, which at moment looks like the Sony W LCD can do in limited scope but still not fully?
That's why I recommend it. With the Sony W you have the option of using the impulse mode, which will give you equal or better motion handling than any plasma, and you have the option to turn it off with low framerate content if that's what you prefer. Some people may not mind 30fps on a plasma, or with impulse mode engaged on one of the Sony LCDs.

It's difficult to make a solid recommendation because everyone is different with what bothers them about a display, and what sort of motion problems they notice. Personally, I notice a lot more problems with plasmas, but other people feel differently.
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post #25 of 89 Old 07-24-2013, 03:32 AM - Thread Starter
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If I have understood this thread correctly then this “thinking out loud” summary should be right:

If you have a 240 Hz LCD, that means the screen can at most refresh 240 times per second. This also means that there are 240 slots for each second, where at most 240 frames can fit per second. I will now use the “slots” terminology to describe the Sample and Hold method of LCDs and Black Frame Insertion for 30 fps signal and 60 fps signal only (for console games, not pc games).
Also I won’t talk about Frame Interpolation, Increasing framerate, or Strobing. Also I will assume that pixel persistence (pixel response time) is no longer a problem.

For 30 fps signal in a 240 Hz LCD:

1 frame can sample and hold for 8 slots: No frame-doubling judder, No Flicker, Highest Brightness, Lightest Black Level, Lowest Motion Resolution

7 slots for 1 frame; 1 slot for black frame

6 slots for 1 frame; 2 slots for black frame

1 frame can sample and hold for 5 slots then 1 inserted black frame can sample and hold for 3 slots: No frame-doubling judder, Low Medium Flicker, High Medium Brightness, Light Medium Black Level, Low Medium Motion Resolution

1 frame can sample and hold for 4 slots then 1 inserted black frame can sample and hold for 4 slots: No frame-doubling judder, High Medium Flicker, Low Medium Brightness, Deep Medium Black Level, High Medium Motion Resolution

3 slots for 1 frame; 5 slots for black frame

2 slots for 1 frame; 6 slots for black frame

1 frame can sample and hold for 1 slot then 1 inserted black frame can sample and hold for 7 slots: No frame-doubling judder, Highest Flicker, Lowest Brightness, Deepest Black Level, Highest Motion Resolution

For 60 fps signal in a 240 Hz LCD:
1 frame can sample and hold for 4 slots: No frame-doubling judder, No Flicker, Highest Brightness, Lightest Black Level, Lowest Motion Resolution

1 frame can sample and hold for 3 slots then 1 inserted black frame can sample and hold for 1 slot: No frame-doubling judder, Low Medium Flicker, High Medium Brightness, Light Medium Black Level, Low Medium Motion Resolution

1 frame can sample and hold for 2 slots then 1 inserted black frame can sample and hold for 2 slots: No frame-doubling judder, High Medium Flicker, Low Medium Brightness, Deep Medium Black Level, High Medium Motion Resolution

1 frame can sample and hold for 1 slot then 1 inserted black frame can sample and hold for 3 slots: No frame-doubling judder, Highest Flicker, Lowest Brightness, Deepest Black Level, Highest Motion Resolution


To me the best LCD TV would be one that is 240 Hz, no pixel resistance, and lets us the consumer choose/decide how many slots 1 frame should sample-hold and how many slots 1 black frame should sample-hold to arrive at our own conclusion/liking for 30 fps and 60 fps signals. Is there a TV yet that can do all this, assuming my above summary is correct?
Also how much input lag would black frame insertion add? I am assuming more than strobing but still a lot less than interpolating frames, but overall a negligible amount (around 10- 15ms based on above posts)?
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post #26 of 89 Old 07-24-2013, 12:39 PM
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I do see some repeat frame judder on non-scanning LCDs insinuating that pixels do refresh between frames. It would be less than CRT because the "blank interval" consists solely of pixels in transition. Not a very effective blanking interval given relatively slow pixel response times, but it's enough to see though. Maybe some older / blurrier sets did not work this way.
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post #27 of 89 Old 07-24-2013, 01:04 PM
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Also could you elaborate on "OLED should not have any trouble with panel-based motion blur, but is probably going to be quite bad for motion blur caused by retinal persistence" What do you mean by retinal persistence?
I always thought there is only one kind of motion blur which are caused by high response times of the panel?
You see three types of motion blur in displays.

1 - Blur in the signal (e.g. - blur created by the camera recording the video....etc)
- This blur is dominent according to a scientific paper I have.

2 - Blur created by the display (e.g. - long phosphor decay, slow pixel transitions...etc)

3 - Blur created by your eye smoothly tracking sequential stationary frames on a screen. This blur largely depends on how long each frame is displayed and your eyes degree of persistence.

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post #28 of 89 Old 07-24-2013, 01:18 PM
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So how does a Plama Tv achieve good motion resolution? I though the reason Plasma had better motion was due to them having a much lesser pixel response time than an LCD? Do Plasma TV's also strobe light?
I've tried explaining this for a good 10 years here without success LOL. Maybe I need to work on my explanation. Here goes -- Plasma TVs do not have better motion resolution due to response time, pixel persistence, PWM, or 600Hz whatever!!!!!!!!

They have better motion resolution due to sequential subfield weighting which creates 1 dark period and 1 light period per frame (i.e. 60Hz flicker).

Each displayed frame in a plasma display is "compiled" or "integrated" from a series of short light pulses. 10-14 pulses create one solid frame that we see. However, these individual pulses have brightness weights ranging from very dim to very bright and they are ordered from darkest to brightest or vice versa. This creates a pattern of dark-light-dark-light-dark-light that we see as 60Hz flicker. The light portion is effectively around 30-35% of the frame time which reduces the eye tracking blur which has been explained a thousand times here on AVS.

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post #29 of 89 Old 07-24-2013, 01:29 PM
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Plasma's are required to do the multiple pulsing (that's the only way an excited plasma can emit---it can't stay on), while OLED's can do either sample-and-hold or pulse (again: IF they are bright enough) because they're "on" for as long as the circuitry wants.
Not trying to confuse anyone but it would be more correct to say that Plasma TVs operate this way in order to create grayscale and not due to some limitation on exciting plasma. It can most definitely stay on if designed that way but would have no ability to create grayscale.

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post #30 of 89 Old 07-24-2013, 01:35 PM
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Well they are doing that to improve motion resolution with less dimming than completely strobing the panel would cause.
You know, I'm not really sure. Can OLED be addressed progressively like a Plasma, or does it have to be updated line-by-line like an LCD?
From the literature I can say that OLED addressing can be very complex with multiplex addressing, line-by-line, groups of lines, address-then-strobe.....etc. However, IIRC different addressing schemes requires different circuitry and possibly different TFT arrangements and designs.

Note: Plasma displays also update the picture line by line from top to bottom. However, most are address-then-display so the panel is updated with data and then strobbed when the update is finished. The later pioneer models have some sort of hybrid system where groups of pixel rows are strobbed from top to bottom.

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