All chips on the table - Is there a 1080p motion resolution non-CRT projector? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 4 Old 07-30-2013, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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It is known that all projectors except CRT have motion blur. But one respected member (I won't point fingers) stated that his projector (namely, Marantz VP-11S1) is capable of 1080p of motion resolution as could be seen through this test2.mp4 file*. I'll be blunt, I don't believe it. I have seen numerous DLP projectors, none of them are close to 1080p of motion resolution. For example, BenQ W7000 has around 480, Sharp XV-Z30000 has around 600. In theory, DLP should have virtually no motion blur. But in practice it isn't so.

* Let's assume that having 1080p of motion resolution on a 1080p display means that the moving image should look like a static image. Meaning no blurring with a given speed of X pixels per second. To judge how good your projector is in this department you should look at a place where you can still make out individual lines on a moving pattern. That place corresponds to a number on the right - that's your projector's MR.

And to make one thing clear - this test isn't the absolute. It only shows projector's capabilities of portraying motion at a given speed of X pixels per second (around 480, I presume). There's a great test made by Mark Rejhon from BlurBusters.com, I hope he won't mind if I put a link to it here: http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates&count=6&pps=480 A perfect (or near-perfect) motion resolution will allow you to see individual white dots on the moving UFO in the top row (which corresponds to 60 fps) as clear as on the bottom row.
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post #2 of 4 Old 07-30-2013, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

There's a great test made by Mark Rejhon from BlurBusters.com, I hope he won't mind if I put a link to it here
Not at all. Anyone is welcome to spread direct links to specific tests found on www.testufo.com

-- Standardization of motion resolution measurements
Firstly, it is my opinion that motion resolution in the future should be measured in milliseconds instead from now on in the future (or motion equivalence ratios measured as 1 / milliseconds). Because milliseconds provides an easy motion blur constant: 1 pixel of motion blur at 1000 pixels/second equals 1 millisecond of motion blur (1/1000th blur)
Scientists call this MPRT (Motion Picture Response Time), and there are now ways to create new motion test patterns that successfully report a MPRT value by human eye.

I do not like motion tests that do "1080 lines of motion resolution"; that is quite arbitrary. Disc-specific, and can't be compared between displays of different resolutions for the same angular view.

-- ViewPixx appears to be the reference for motion resolution in a DLP
The Viewpixx Propixx projector is a 500Hz-native-input -capable DLP at www.vpixx.com. Getting a 500fps@500Hz video sources is very hard -- mainly computer-based sources or special scientific equipment. It would have the necessary motion resolution (2ms) to render the full motion resolution of the top UFO, but that's a special vision researcher projector (500Hz capable), as (You need a fast computer & GPU to run a web browser at such framerates though)
-- It is expensive at roughly ~$30K league from last I heard, and only does a low resolution at the 500Hz level. At 1920x1080, it can only do 120Hz.

-- Idea of modifying a DLP for better temporal resolution
One experiment I am interested in is taking the colorwheel out of a DLP projector, and blacking out a portion of the color wheel. This would dim the image, and cause colors to become worse (fewer bits becoming visible from temporal dithering), but it may double or triple the motion resolution of a DLP, depending on how much of the colorwheel you blacked out, and if you were able to make it strobe only once per refresh. (Would not work with colorwheels that spun multiple times per refresh).

-- My new non-CRT motion resolution reference display (gaming)
On my LightBoost strobe-backlight LCD, configured to LightBoost=10% (1.4ms strobe flash per refresh), I can resolve the white dots in the UFO at 1920pixels/second. Plasma can't resolve this, as it's bottlenecked by its 5ms phosphor ghosting. The strobe backlight in LightBoost is currently the most efficient one at eliminating motion blur, in a consumer LCD display, outperforming all other known scanning backlights, and needing zero motion interpolation.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #3 of 4 Old 07-30-2013, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark, your input is appreciated. I didn't know about ViewPixx. Here's a 720p B&W DLP capable of 360 Hz. http://www.crsltd.com/tools-for-vision-science/displays/depthq-360-dlp-projector/
CRT is amazing. On my monitor I can see the dots clearly @ 1920 pixels per second.

To mods: it seems I've put this topic in the wrong thread. It is meant to be here: http://www.avsforum.com/f/24/digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp
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post #4 of 4 Old 07-30-2013, 09:01 AM
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More DLP projectors need an adjustable black frame insertion control, with an adjustable motion-resolution versus brightness/color-depth tradeoff.

With a very simple firmware modification on a 6X-speed DLP (360Hz), it is technically possible to reduce DLP motion blur by more than 80% via black frame insertion (e.g. 5:1 black frame ratio. For the best case motion blur elimination scenario with a 6X color wheel, if you could make 5 out of 6 passes of the colorwheel dark, that gives you a 6x improvement in motion resolution. This is where your DLP is dark 5/6th of the time and light emitted only 1/6th of the time (e.g. 300Hz out of 360Hz is "dark", with only one brief flicker of each three primaries, you want to flash each color as close together as possible, and make the overall flash as brief as possible, if you are targetting maximum motion resolution). This would cause a DLP to have 2.8ms of MPRT (one-sixth of 1/60sec), which would make this theoretical DLP have better motion resolution than plasma, since the motion resolution of plasma is actually bottlenecked by the limiting factor of the plasma's phosphor decay (5ms).

However, there would be rather severe compromises. To do this, you would lose more than 80% of light output, and more than 80% of color precision (e.g. you may get only 6-bit color). This would allow DLP to resolve the white dots easily of the UFO at www.testufo.com during 960 pixels/second motion. DLP makers aren't including such a massive-ratio black frame insertion because of the numerous disadvantages (flicker, massive loss of light, and massive loss of color resolution).

Due to nature of DLP, black frame insertion ratio on DLP scales linearly with motion clarity. Thus is easy to compute the motion blur of -- the black frame ratio equals the improvement in motion blur. At best, a lot of DLP black-frame insertion is just a 50%:50% black frame, which reduces motion blur by 50% (e.g. motion resolution improves by exactly 2x).
So if white dots in the UFO at www.testufo.com was resolvable at say, 240pixels/sec, they would now become equally resolvable at 480pixels/sec

DLP is one of the few display that can achieve theroetical efficiencies with black frames (e.g. linear motion blur relationships with black frame insertion ratios)
50%:50% dark:bright = 50% less motion blur (2x clearer motion) = also 2x darker
75%:25% dark:bright = 75% less motion blur (4x clearer motion) = also 4x darker
90%:10% dark:bright = 90% less motion blur (10x clearer motion) = also 10x darker (very dim).

The problem is that it eats into DLP/projector achilles heel (loss of brightness, loss of color resolution). And you have to accomodate the color wheel limitations. So big ratios aren't used. Usually it is approximately 1:1 ratio. Although it was designed for LCD's, I have since found out that DLP's are apparently also compatible with the BlurBusters response-speed-measurement test: www.testufo.com/#test=mprt
Speed up/slow down the checkerboard (pixels/sec) until the black squares equal the size of the white squares.
On certain models of DLP's, the MPRT numbers will halve whenever you enable black frame insertion -- confirming the 50% less motion blur.

One useful question to ask your friend is: Does he have black frame insertion enabled?
DLP's that use a 1:1 black frame, would allow double-speed TestUFO at the same motion clarity.
Also, some DLP's now support 120Hz native input, which would additionally allow double-speed TestUFO at the same clarity, too.
Have your friend test www.testufo.com/#test=mprt

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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