LG 55EA9800 55" OLED Owner's thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 02:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pres2play's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 53
How 'bout a few shots of this lovely set.
Pres2play is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 03:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
RobbinMerritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

How 'bout a few shots of this lovely set.

Here are a few.






Robbin
RobbinMerritt is offline  
post #93 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Jason626's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: illinois
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Very nice. Thanks for the pictures.
Jason626 is offline  
post #94 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 03:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pres2play's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Magnificent. The LG should really take off with these new price drops.
Pres2play is online now  
post #95 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,143
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 669

The base of the thing confuses me.  I don't understand why they flared it outward.....sort of....and why it looks like crumpled cellophane in some other pictures I've seen.

 

How's the 3D?


WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #96 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 05:49 PM
Senior Member
 
tubby497's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: La La Land
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 199
Wow!eek.gif Congrats on your purchase!

Pioneer KRP-500M (Tweaked) + Oppo BDP-103 + Mcintosh MX121/MC207/MPC1500
B&W 803D2/HTM2D/805D2 + JL Audio Fathom F112
tubby497 is offline  
post #97 of 5916 Old 02-23-2014, 07:27 PM
Member
 
bigcoupe2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 86
congrats love the set
bigcoupe2003 is offline  
post #98 of 5916 Old 02-24-2014, 03:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
RobbinMerritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

How's the 3D?

It comes with two pair of glasses and two clip-ons. The picture is plenty bright. You can see the reduction in resolution on text (DVD menus and such) but not so much in the movie. The LG isn't as sensitive to view angle or head position as compared to my active-glass Sharp.

I wasn't able to get 3D to work when the Blu-ray player is routed through my AV receiver. I had to plug it in directly to the TV.

Robbin
RobbinMerritt is offline  
post #99 of 5916 Old 02-24-2014, 08:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,143
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbinMerritt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

How's the 3D?

It comes with two pair of glasses and two clip-ons. The picture is plenty bright. You can see the reduction in resolution on text (DVD menus and such) but not so much in the movie. The LG isn't as sensitive to view angle or head position as compared to my active-glass Sharp.

I wasn't able to get 3D to work when the Blu-ray player is routed through my AV receiver. I had to plug it in directly to the TV.

 

Rule #1: When in doubt, blame the receiver.

Rule #2: When in doubt, blame the receiver.

 

yesthisisfightclub


WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #100 of 5916 Old 02-24-2014, 03:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
vaktmestern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,022
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Congrats on one of the best tvs out.
vaktmestern is online now  
post #101 of 5916 Old 02-25-2014, 10:36 AM
Senior Member
 
Masterbrew2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 302
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 82

Looks nice.

 

Do we know anything about burn-in? 

 

There is this horror story about an LG OLED running in torch mode with onscreen menu in a London store  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481970/oled-in-london 

... but I haven't seen any viewpoints from consumers, who has actually run into it with their own sets.

Masterbrew2 is offline  
post #102 of 5916 Old 02-25-2014, 11:14 AM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1010
Hopefully, the price is getting low enough such that we'll be able to hear more about it from the end users.
vinnie97 is offline  
post #103 of 5916 Old 02-25-2014, 12:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
RobbinMerritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post

Looks nice.

Do we know anything about burn-in? 

There is this horror story about an LG OLED running in torch mode with onscreen menu in a London store  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481970/oled-in-london 
... but I haven't seen any viewpoints from consumers, who has actually run into it with their own sets.

I guess time will tell for me. Given how aggressive the set is on dimming down when the picture doesn't change, I tend to think that burn in is a concern. I know most Samsung AMOLED phone's I've seen on display have burn in. So it seems like OLEDs are at risk for this.

Where are the rest of the 55EA9800 owners? I know they've sold more than one! I Remember when Sony came out with their first SXRD RP -- that set was $14K -- yet many people on this forum bought them.

Robbin
RobbinMerritt is offline  
post #104 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 11:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
vaktmestern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,022
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Have you tryed to game on ur Lg oled any console you own?
vaktmestern is online now  
post #105 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Masterbrew2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 302
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 82

I'm also wondering if it can suffer from the mura effect.

 

It is something Sony Vita owners have experienced. Apparently it is when non-uniformities in the current-delivering backplane causes some cells to be slightly illuminated when they're supposed to be black, giving the appearance of a slight pattern when the screen is dark.

 

It might not be a problem with big screens though?

Masterbrew2 is offline  
post #106 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 12:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
RobbinMerritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaktmestern View Post

Have you tryed to game on ur Lg oled any console you own?

Sorry, I'm not a gamer.

Robbin
RobbinMerritt is offline  
post #107 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 12:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 155
I can't believe more people aren't buying these at the reduced price. People were paying just slightly less for a brand new Kuro when they came out. I bought my first Panasonic 42" 720p plasma for 4000.00 on discount eek.gif

I'm buying one to try out and should have it by friday. I'm a heavy gamer so I'll test out the lag, and see if there is any noticeable motion blur. LED LCD even with strobing back light still have visible smearing to me. The LG with a less then 1ms response time hopefully shouldn't have any smear, and I know they measured motion res at 600 lines with motion enhance but thats just because of Sample and Hold effect. The only LCD that I've seen that is near blur free is my Benq 24" monitor with 2ms response time but with a crappy TN panel.

I hope the rumoured 4K 77" OLED doesn't really sell for 30k. Thats the TV I really want, and I'd probably get one if it was around 10-12 grand.
tubby497 likes this.
conan48 is offline  
post #108 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 12:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
RobbinMerritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

.

I hope the rumoured 4K 77" OLED doesn't really sell for 30k. Thats the TV I really want, and I'd probably get one if it was around 10-12 grand.

I'm right there with you.

Robbin
RobbinMerritt is offline  
post #109 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 01:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,143
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I can't believe more people aren't buying these at the reduced price. People were paying just slightly less for a brand new Kuro when they came out. I bought my first Panasonic 42" 720p plasma for 4000.00 on discount eek.gif

I'm buying one to try out and should have it by friday. I'm a heavy gamer so I'll test out the lag, and see if there is any noticeable motion blur. LED LCD even with strobing back light still have visible smearing to me. The LG with a less then 1ms response time hopefully shouldn't have any smear, and I know they measured motion res at 600 lines with motion enhance but thats just because of Sample and Hold effect.

 

What do you mean "just because"?  The response time will not help you with blurring any longer...even LCD's these days are more than fast enough.  Blur is caused by eye tracking and sample-and-hold causing a smear against the retina, or worse: your eyes to painfully jerk around minutely.  Whether or not you will get the best blur mitigation will depend whether or not the device is intrinsically bright enough to use one of the pulse mechanisms.

 

Please see blurbusters.com for Mark Rejhon's excellent examples, utilities, and research in this regard.

 

BTW, if there's burn-in susceptibility with this OLED, then using this thing for games (or a PC) is going to be a problem.  Most games I've seen have static regions for long periods of time.  You might end up with cross-hairs or a "score:" permanently emblazoned on the screen.


WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #110 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 02:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
vaktmestern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,022
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Im looking into buying one but in may cool.gif
vaktmestern is online now  
post #111 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 03:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

What do you mean "just because"?  The response time will not help you with blurring any longer...even LCD's these days are more than fast enough.  Blur is caused by eye tracking and sample-and-hold causing a smear against the retina, or worse: your eyes to painfully jerk around minutely.  Whether or not you will get the best blur mitigation will depend whether or not the device is intrinsically bright enough to use one of the pulse mechanisms.

Please see blurbusters.com for Mark Rejhon's excellent examples, utilities, and research in this regard.

BTW, if there's burn-in susceptibility with this OLED, then using this thing for games (or a PC) is going to be a problem.  Most games I've seen have static regions for long periods of time.  You might end up with cross-hairs or a "score:" permanently emblazoned on the screen.

I wasn't really clear. LCDs are NOT FAST ENOUGH. I was saying that SMEARING which IS VERY visible on most LCD sets too me will not be an issue on an OLED. I can easily see smearing on current LCDs, except for my Benq 24" montor which has lightboost. Even plasma which is supposed to be the best for motion suffers from coloured fringing (look up the plasma rainbow thread). I was shocked at how bad some LCDs smear (not blur) especially the Sharp, and Samsung sets. I find the LG has the least amount of smearing (IPS?) Now the blur from S and H should be fixed with pulsing/black frame insertion.

Does the LG OLED not use pulsing/black frame insertion? If it does, then it should be able to hit full 1080 lines moving res like some of the LCDs out there.

As for burn in. I'll deal with it, if it happens. I gamed on early plasmas and the worst I had burn in for about a week after and then it went away. (new set, torch mode and lots of hud biggrin.gif )
conan48 is offline  
post #112 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 03:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tgm1024's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,143
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

What do you mean "just because"?  The response time will not help you with blurring any longer...even LCD's these days are more than fast enough.  Blur is caused by eye tracking and sample-and-hold causing a smear against the retina, or worse: your eyes to painfully jerk around minutely.  Whether or not you will get the best blur mitigation will depend whether or not the device is intrinsically bright enough to use one of the pulse mechanisms.

Please see blurbusters.com for Mark Rejhon's excellent examples, utilities, and research in this regard.

BTW, if there's burn-in susceptibility with this OLED, then using this thing for games (or a PC) is going to be a problem.  Most games I've seen have static regions for long periods of time.  You might end up with cross-hairs or a "score:" permanently emblazoned on the screen.

I wasn't really clear. LCDs are NOT FAST ENOUGH. I was saying that SMEARING which IS VERY visible on most LCD sets too me will not be an issue on an OLED. I can easily see smearing on current LCDs, except for my Benq 24" montor which has lightboost. Even plasma which is supposed to be the best for motion suffers from coloured fringing (look up the plasma rainbow thread). I was shocked at how bad some LCDs smear (not blur)

 

It seems you are more clear now.  However when I say that LCD's are fast enough I'm pointing out that the smear you're seeing is because the are purposefully holding the image way past their GtG/Response time.  It's no longer the case that we're seeing blur as a result of the long transitions; instead it's because the value is held for too long.  But yes, either way, a pulsing is required still, unless you're one of the lucky ones that can't seem to detect the blur.

 

I am not at all convinced yet that the OLED's are bright enough yet to manage any form of pulsing, though someone did say recently that they saw something similar to it on one of the Samsung OLEDs.

 

However, can you please define the difference you perceive to be between "smear" vs. "blur"?


WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
tgm1024 is offline  
post #113 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 05:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Smear, which you can also call trailing is when one colour bleeds into another, or leaves a trail. Ex, A red pixel moving over a black background would leave a read smear/trail. The Sharps were so bad at smearing that when someone would talk you would see a red smear from there lips.

Blur is only the effect of detail/resolution loss during movement or panning. Ex. The FPD motion benchmark has a scene where cars drive by and you try and read the license plates. The TVs with less motion resolution makes it harder to clearly see the numbers on the license plates and the details of the moving cars. The sets with higher motion resolution, you could more clearly see the license plate numbers and details of the car.

Now a TV for example like a Samsung with good motion res because of the pulsing backlight would show the license plate number clearly but it also left a black trail/smear. The black letters from the license plate would leave a black trail/smear over the white portion of the license plate.

So OLEDs less the 1ms response time should completely get rid of trailing/smearing but slight loss of detail/resolution may be noticeable because of the sample and hold effect.

I'm gonna run the motion tests ASAP when I get the set and I'll post info here.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1240730/please-run-this-motion-trailing-smearing-test-on-your-lcd-tv-and-post-findings

This will give you an idea of what I'm talking about. His samsung had less blur then his HP laptop, but the Samsung had much worse trailing/smearing.

Trailing/smearing is still a big issue for LCD tech, and god bless you if you don't see it biggrin.gif
conan48 is offline  
post #114 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 05:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
conan48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Igloo
Posts: 2,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Did some more reading I was correct that the IPS (LG) panels have less trailing/smearing then VA(Samsung, Sony) panels, and my monitor which is a TN panel is the currently the best, but it has horrible contrast ratio and crap viewing angle. I think Sharp is SPVA, which also sucks.
conan48 is offline  
post #115 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 06:22 PM
Member
 
VinceCPHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Frisco, Texas
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Beautiful TV robbinmerritt! I've never seen old Bill and Dominique look better, lol. Out of curiosity, what was for dinner, looks like Chinese...haha.
VinceCPHT is offline  
post #116 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 06:26 PM
 
pg_ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 177
More pictures please! smile.gif

I have one question.

How wide is the gamut if your not choosing srgb ?
Just the native gamut.
Can it reach Adobe RGB ?

I wonder how much LGs filter cuts the colors.
pg_ice is offline  
post #117 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 07:03 PM
"Don't PM Me Bro"
 
RandyWalters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: El Segundo, Calif
Posts: 17,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 471
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbinMerritt View Post

.....Where are the rest of the 55EA9800 owners? I know they've sold more than one!

The other 55EA9800 owner doesn't post on AVS biggrin.gif

Randy
TC-P55ST60, TC-P50GT50, TC-P46G10, TH-42PZ700U, TH-42PX50U, HP LC2600N, TiVo Series3, TWC Cisco 8742HDC DVR, Onkyo TX-SR333, URC R40 Remote.
Pic of My A/V setup - http://cdn.avsforum.com/f/f1/900x900..._Img_4867.jpeg
Gallery - http://www.avsforum.com/g/a/2082686/randywalter...
RandyWalters is offline  
post #118 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 08:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pres2play's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbinMerritt View Post

You were right! I got a good result using windows instead of full screen patterns.


How was the onscreen menu during calibration? Did it interfere in any way? The menu on the Samsung is very bright, I may have to use painter's tape to hide part of the screen.
Pres2play is online now  
post #119 of 5916 Old 02-26-2014, 08:30 PM
Senior Member
 
tubby497's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: La La Land
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaktmestern View Post

Have you tryed to game on ur Lg oled any console you own?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I can't believe more people aren't buying these at the reduced price. People were paying just slightly less for a brand new Kuro when they came out. I bought my first Panasonic 42" 720p plasma for 4000.00 on discount eek.gif

I'm buying one to try out and should have it by friday. I'm a heavy gamer so I'll test out the lag, and see if there is any noticeable motion blur. LED LCD even with strobing back light still have visible smearing to me. The LG with a less then 1ms response time hopefully shouldn't have any smear, and I know they measured motion res at 600 lines with motion enhance but thats just because of Sample and Hold effect. The only LCD that I've seen that is near blur free is my Benq 24" monitor with 2ms response time but with a crappy TN panel.

I hope the rumoured 4K 77" OLED doesn't really sell for 30k. Thats the TV I really want, and I'd probably get one if it was around 10-12 grand.

Here's a short clip of gaming on LG EA9800 OLED tv: Not a review though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDkp2WWnwxg

Congrats on your purchase!

Pioneer KRP-500M (Tweaked) + Oppo BDP-103 + Mcintosh MX121/MC207/MPC1500
B&W 803D2/HTM2D/805D2 + JL Audio Fathom F112
tubby497 is offline  
post #120 of 5916 Old 02-27-2014, 12:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
RobbinMerritt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

How was the onscreen menu during calibration? Did it interfere in any way? The menu on the Samsung is very bright, I may have to use painter's tape to hide part of the screen.

I just took readings so far. So I've not made any adjustments yet. The set is either calibrated at the factory or their manufacturing process is really consistent. I doubt I can get the set much better than it was OOTB.

I did notice that when selecting a specific item from the menu, it moves to the bottom of the screen to a scrollable menu that is pretty unobtrusive.
Eternitay likes this.

Robbin
RobbinMerritt is offline  
Reply Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

Tags
Lg 55ea9800 Oled Hdtv , Lg
Gear in this thread - 55ea9800 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off