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post #2371 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 02:22 AM
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It's very odd that 6 hours of uneven wear has about the same perceptual effect after 300 hours of use as after 0 hours of use. Would that not imply that wear is exponential, which makes no sense...

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post #2372 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 02:27 AM
 
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^Closer to 9 with the LOTR trilogy. wink.gif

OK, my visual memory sucks. I went back to check a gray slide and indeed the letterbox bars are a shade darker than the central portion of the screen. It's just that this isn't particularly noticeable in content (the margin is all that I notice there). On the grayscale slide, the brightness delta is obvious. Using a pattern like you originally suggested may be a quicker way to mitigate this, if it even can be?

I would half expect the letterboxes to be brighter rather than darker than the center. Perhaps the aging algorithm is overcompensating after a mere 9 hours of uneven use.

This is the first and probably the last new display tech I decide to pioneer. tongue.gif TGM (and his other patient brethren) again prove to be sages.
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post #2373 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post


I would half expect the letterboxes to be brighter rather than darker than the center. Perhaps the aging algorithm is overcompensating after a mere 9 hours of uneven use.
 

 

That is really odd. Maybe there is hope then that LG will update the software and bring the aging algorithm more in line

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post #2374 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 05:31 AM
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It seems LG is just ignoring it's problems so I doubt we'll be seeing that

LOTR EE trilogy is over 11 hours though wink.gif

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post #2375 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 05:31 AM
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Wow.....never knew! I always assumed it was simply an added white subpixel. Thanks for informing me! Truly an ingenious idea then. I feel silly for being so out of the loop for so long.

Have any other displays ever tried such a thing?

 

The concept of having a white OLED (formed by a stack of blue+red/green, or variations on that theme) underneath a colored filter is something that originated from Kodak (as evidenced by the patents some dug up and reported in another thread).  Leave the white subpixel itself out of the equation for the moment.  Here's why this stack design is regarded as a win:

 

OLED has a known pronounced longevity issue with blue.  In a "regular" non-stacked design, the blue subpixel would fade faster.  This would cause the color to shift horribly toward yellow as the panel ages.  However Samsung realized this and did what I believe to be a superior solution of simply making the blue subpixel larger and driving it less in the hopes of it balancing out.  The problem then becomes a balancing act of trying to predict which subpixel will wear quicker.

 

In a stacked design, the specific longevity of blue matters less.  The reason for this is that as the blue (on the bottom) ages, the electron-hole combination above it causes lesser activation of the red and green above.  You can think of this as causing the entire stack, normally producing a bright white, to fade to dimmer and dimmer shades of gray.  These grays (hopefully) are without a bias toward yellow.  Those grays, as with the white, then proceed through carefully constructed filters to produce the red, green, and blue subpixels.  As it ages, the whole TV then slowly loses its luminosity without being grotesquely tinted worse and worse over time.

 

Now this is to the side of why there is a white subpixel itself and how it works with the other primaries (I'll quickly cover how that works later).  Don't confuse this white subpixel with the reason for the white stack underneath the colored filters, even though that white subpixel is itself just the same stack basically with a clear or no filter at all.  (Note: I personally believe it's possible for the white subpixel to have a very very faintly tinted filter, instead of clear or none, to better tune the white it produces, but LG doesn't mention this nor hardly any other details of what they're doing, so that'll remain a mere wondering on my part.)

 

From the insiders elsewhere in AVS, LG's design is also different in another very specific way that must absolutely contribute to their low yield rates: those OLED layers in the stack are actually large contiguous sheets covering the entirety of the panel.  The subpixel is formed by the electronics above and below activating a slightly amorphous region of it (which then tunnels the electrons upward through the layers).  The tight definition of the subpixel is formed by the filter above it and presumably some kind of mask.  The subpixels in the LG case are particularly small with a large grid around them and it's been pondered if this has something to do with it.

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post #2376 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 06:01 AM
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Thats bad news frown.gif what a rollecoster ride ...
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post #2377 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 06:22 AM
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As to how a white subpixel actually could work, consider the RGB color model for a moment.  There's no need to go too much into detail here, but here's the gist of it.

 

Consider values from 0 to 255 for simplicity, where 255 is a subpixel on full blast and 0 is the subpixel completely "off" (black).  I'm using "#"'s to form a bar graph.

 

This is completely without any color calibration which will tweak these numbers around.

 

Here is white:

       0                                255
  Red: ###################################
Green: ###################################
 Blue: ###################################

 

And of course, here is black:

       0                                255
  Red: -----------------------------------
Green: -----------------------------------
 Blue: -----------------------------------

 

Here is a 50% gray:

       0                                255
  Red: ##################-----------------
Green: ##################-----------------
 Blue: ##################-----------------

 

Here is a 25% (dark) gray:

       0                                255
  Red: #########--------------------------
Green: #########--------------------------
 Blue: #########--------------------------

 

The RGB color model is pretty cool, but for now, take my word for it that the following is a light pink.  Hold onto this concept for a moment:

       0                                255
  Red: ###################################
Green: ##############################-----
 Blue: ##############################-----

 

In color science circles, the RGB "gray component" is the part of the primaries that are common to each other.  Think of it as the part that would by themselves form some gray value (without any tint).  (Quick note: You'll more often see the term "gray component" used in the CMY color model and used used for "gray component replacement" in CMYK printing.  The principal here is the same but that is using subtractive primaries and this is using additive.)

 

Here is the gray component for that light pink above:

       0                                255
  Red: ###################################
Green: ##############################-----
 Blue: ##############################-----
       <-------Gray Component------->

 

The way that LG could be using that gray component is to offload it to the white sub, like so.  (Note: we're still going to need red):

       0                                255
White: ##############################-----

 

But then we no longer need it in the R, G, and B, so they could conceivably pull it out (depending, I'm keeping this horribly simple).  I'll keep the red to the right for now just to make it clear:

       0                                255
  Red: ------------------------------#####
Green: -----------------------------------
 Blue: -----------------------------------
White: ##############################-----

 

Or how it should be drawn: (as a gray, with a smidgeon of red added)

       0                                255
  Red: #####------------------------------
Green: -----------------------------------
 Blue: -----------------------------------
White: ##############################-----

 

Note, it's certainly way more complicated than this because the total light output needs to taken into consideration here.  But here's what I believe (<---note) is the general principal they're likely using.  There are many variations on this theme, such as driving white full blast and adding red until a certain saturation is needed and then tapering white, as well as leaving much of the gray component in place in the RGB, while adding white.  I'm guessing that this is going to depend largely upon what the overall effect is of having all that black space in between the subs, so in real life, a closeup will likely have all 4 driven for many colors.

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post #2378 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:07 AM
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Wow TGM, thank you for that extremely thoughtful response. If the RGB value of 0-255 is being applied to the pixels in a way that denotes how hard they must work to output that color, would using RGB limited (only 16-235 max) instead of full actually add to the pixel's lifespan?

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post #2379 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:13 AM
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Guess I won't bother finishing that break in period then. I wouldn't use anything but a solid color slide to try and wash that off either, as since the letterbox bars are darker than the centerit's likely not an issue related to the actual pixels being aged, but rather some sort of memory effect.

Definitely the last time I beta test a product at this price point as well. LG could be working on firmware which addresses these issues but they're undoubtedly not. If you can't wash any of that wear away are you going to sell the tv at a loss or hang on to it anyway? It could be used as a 2:35/2:40 proprietary machine for you since you have another active display.

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post #2380 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:33 AM
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And yet, I was able to play this MMORPG on ps4 for 6 straight hours without the slightest bit of IR. Do you see the massiveness of that HUDdage? It never goes away either, not even during loading screens.

I started off slow of course, starting with one hour sessions and working my way up to six, which is about the longest I'll ever play something for in succession anyway.

Then I get a mark from watching the hobbit for 2 hours. It's so bizarre.

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post #2381 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

Wow TGM, thank you for that extremely thoughtful response? If the RGB value of 0-255 is being applied to the pixels in a way that denotes how hard they must work to output that color, would using RGB limited over full actually add to the pixel's lifespan?

 

Dunno.  There's a lot going on in the LG case.  The subs are smaller as a result of cramming 4 of those things in as well so perhaps they have to drive them harder.  Lots of variables that I couldn't even guess at.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

Guess I won't bother finishing that break in period then. I wouldn't use anything but a solid color slide to try and wash that off either, as since the letterbox bars are darker than the centerit's likely not an issue related to the actual pixels being aged, but rather some sort of memory effect.

 

.....a break in period of some kind?  In any case, slides would bring the wear out of the initial phase, and either way if there's going to be an odd pass period of memory/wear/whatever, I'd be betting on the beginning.  But honestly, I don't know.


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post #2382 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:40 AM
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Using a question mark after thanking you was an accident btw.
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post #2383 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/426710/width/500/height/700

And yet, I was able to play this MMORPG on ps4 for 6 straight hours without the slightest bit of IR. Do you see the massiveness of that HUDdage? It never goes away either, not even during loading screens.

 

Now here I have another pondering......I wonder if a subpixel being on produces wear to neighboring subpixels in ever greater non-proportional amounts?  Heat?

 

Plague, could you post your findings here: OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread ?

 

Not to ask for a solution to your problem, but to talk about your 1st hand experience with LG OLED in general.  Or at least provide a link from there to here.  The IR thing is interesting.


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post #2384 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:45 AM
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Now here I have another pondering......I wonder if a subpixel being on produces wear to neighboring subpixels in ever greater non-proportional amounts?  Heat?

Plague, could you post your findings here: OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread ?

Not to ask for a solution to your problem, but to talk about your 1st hand experience with LG OLED in general.  Or at least provide a link from there to here.  The IR thing is interesting.

Yes of course, I shouldbe posting there. I have to log off for a while now but I'll hop on that thread later.

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post #2385 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 07:49 AM
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@plague: Looks like FFXIV. Is that a photo or a screenshot?
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post #2386 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 08:10 AM
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@plague: Looks like FFXIV. Is that a photo or a screenshot?

It is indeed FFXIV smile.gif
Do you play it?

It's just a random screenshot I grabbed off the web to give everyone an idea. But my HUD is laid out about the same.

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post #2387 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 08:43 AM
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Good it it didnt ir cool.gif i wouldnt dare game on one
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post #2388 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 08:49 AM
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Good it it didnt ir cool.gif i wouldnt dare game on one

Nope, like I said I started off with slow sessions. Gaming is definitely no problem for this set I can assure you! As a matter if fact it's about the only thing I feel comfortable doing at this point. I've played many games with static huds on both my panels and nary an image is to be found from them; that is just the most extreme example not the only.

You're safe gaming plus the graphics look gorgeous AND the tv is capable of 4:4 if you pc it up (though I only have a cheapo laptop)

Aspect ratios destroy the tv. Static images do not. Who in the hell can figure out why? I don't know. Maybe someone on the other thread. Which I'll link to this page.
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post #2389 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 08:52 AM
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Nope, never played it, but there aren't that many MMORPG on the PS4 AFAIK. Might even be the only one right now.
I am currently playing The Last of US on the PS3 and imagine that it must look incredible on an OLED TV.
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post #2390 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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It seems LG is just ignoring it's problems so I doubt we'll be seeing that
Sometimes it not like that, but may seem that way. Changes take time at manufacturers, sometimes a very, very long time.......
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post #2391 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 09:14 AM
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Nope, never played it, but there aren't that many MMORPG on the PS4 AFAIK. Might even be the only one right now.
I am currently playing The Last of US on the PS3 and imagine that it must look incredible on an OLED TV.

It's the only one on ps4 yeah, and one of I think only 2 on ps3....hop on I'm even on an EU server now! The ps3 version is inferior but it still works just fine smile.gif

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It seems LG is just ignoring it's problems so I doubt we'll be seeing that

LOTR EE trilogy is over 11 hours though
wink.gif
Crap...watching the trilogy back-to-back is the metaphorical equivalent of taking your OLED to Mordor to destroy it forever?! eek.gif
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Using a question mark after thanking you was an accident btw.

Was it ??
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Guess I won't bother finishing that break in period then. I wouldn't use anything but a solid color slide to try and wash that off either, as since the letterbox bars are darker than the centerit's likely not an issue related to the actual pixels being aged, but rather some sort of memory effect.

Definitely the last time I beta test a product at this price point as well. LG could be working on firmware which addresses these issues but they're undoubtedly not. If you can't wash any of that wear away are you going to sell the tv at a loss or hang on to it anyway? It could be used as a 2:35/2:40 proprietary machine for you since you have another active display.
I haven't decided yet...taking a loss would be painful. Being restricted to 2.35:1 content would be almost equally so. A lot is hinging on if these slides can correct it. Not looking that good in the early days/hours.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

Guess I won't bother finishing that break in period then. I wouldn't use anything but a solid color slide to try and wash that off either, as since the letterbox bars are darker than the centerit's likely not an issue related to the actual pixels being aged, but rather some sort of memory effect.

Definitely the last time I beta test a product at this price point as well. LG could be working on firmware which addresses these issues but they're undoubtedly not. If you can't wash any of that wear away are you going to sell the tv at a loss or hang on to it anyway? It could be used as a 2:35/2:40 proprietary machine for you since you have another active display.
I haven't decided yet...taking a loss would be painful. Being restricted to 2.35:1 content would be almost equally so. A lot is hinging on if these slides can correct it. Not looking that good in the early days/hours.

 

Vin, which slides do they show up on?


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Very very faintly on white with increasing intensity as light output decreases with shades of gray. None of the colors show it.
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Very very faintly on white with increasing intensity as light output decreases with shades of gray. None of the colors show it.

 

Are those grays being done entirely by the white subpixel, or is there an assist from the RGB?


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post #2398 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 12:02 PM
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Very very faintly on white with increasing intensity as light output decreases with shades of gray. None of the colors show it.

Didnt you just say a page or two back that it does in fact show on dynamic content, which we then attributed to the rollercoaster taking off on this thread again?

I'm sorry this has happened to you again Vinnie, but don't resolve that LG will leave you out to dry. Just because the manual states that burn in is the users fault doesn't necessarily mean they won't fix it as the manual also states dead pixels are perfectly normal (lol at the audacity of this manual!).

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post #2399 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 12:43 PM
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Normal? Lol.... now that's brazen.

WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
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post #2400 of 5916 Old 05-06-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Normal? Lol.... now that's brazen.

Lol actually it does...

....I was going to take a screenshot but I cant find it at the moment.

Basically it's an utterly useless little thing that tells you no more than how to turn it on, use the remote, a warning about burn in and a note about how utterly insane the number of pixels in an hd tv is, so that it's perfectly normal to see some "specs" (believe I read that exact word) where non functioning pixels are.

Because, you know, we should understand that there's lots and lots so it's just too hard to make it all work....poor LG haha

I'd love to see something like that in a car manual. "Vehicle may not function at times. As there are thousands of moving parts inside, it is normal that some will creak, crack or malfunction from time to time. It's hard to make cars, were sorry."

Vinnie97, one of the kindest, most helpful and respected members here, got one of these. I wonder how much longer before we all get such a message...
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