Is a 4k tv worth waiting for? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 51 Old 12-01-2013, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

But 4:2:0 3840x2160 should give just as much chroma resolution as 4:4:4 1080p, but 4:2:0 3840x2160 would have 4x as many luma samples, and the human eye is more sensitive to luma changes than chroma ones - assuming there is sufficient bitrate to encode it with high enough quality.
To convert RGB to 4:2:0 YCbCr requires two conversions. Converting from RGB to 4:4:4 YCbCr and than converting from 4:4:4 YCbCr to 4:2:0 YCbCr. I think that 4:2:0 YCbCr will continue to be used for UHDTV and as long as you have a larger viewing angle a higher luma resolution would be noticeable. I think though that requiring a larger viewing angle to see an improvement means that current 4K TVs have a small market.
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post #32 of 51 Old 12-02-2013, 07:11 AM
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For most people based on current TV sizes I think it would be better to provide RGB at 1080p than 4:2:0 YCbCr at 4K. It would give better video quality with a lower cost and a lower bit rate. I think there is almost no chance it will happen since the video industry loves chroma subsampling in the same way that they used to love interlacing but RGB is the best way to transmit video. In the days of analog 4:2:0 YCbCr made a lot of sense but today it is an analog relic similar to limited video range and 59.94 fps.
For a larger viewing angle increasing the resolution would be better but for most people increasing the resolution is the smallest benefit that could have been chosen. CE companies are simply going with the easiest improvement which makes sense for them but offers a poor deal for consumers.
But 4:2:0 3840x2160 should give just as much chroma resolution as 4:4:4 1080p, but 4:2:0 3840x2160 would have 4x as many luma samples, and the human eye is more sensitive to luma changes than chroma ones - assuming there is sufficient bitrate to encode it with high enough quality.

 

No, not luma "changes".  Luma resolution.  Don't make the common mistake that color subsampling is a pseudonym for bit depth or other color depth compression.  It's a spatial subsampling.


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post #33 of 51 Old 12-02-2013, 08:40 AM
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It's all about content for me, while we might see discs emerge in the next 2 years, I'm unsure how fast we'll see content come out for them.

On top of that, look at live TV now.. channels are still 720p or 1080i, correct me if I'm wrong but there is no cable or satellite 1080p broadcast. On top of that the 720p/1080i they're sending out is significantly compressed, god knows when we'll get a decent bitrate 1080p broadcast, seems years behind.. apparently due to the bandwidth requirements of 1080p.

Games are another boat as well, the PS4 and Xbox One aren't going to be doing any competent 4K gaming, despite them sort of leaving the door open. They'll be 1080p (at best), and we likely won't see another console for at least 5-6 years. PC gaming is another boat, if you're willing to spend a ton on graphics cards then you can get 4K today, no clue how well games will take advantage of it, however.

I just don't really see the point, I don't know how 720p/1080i/1080p content looks on a 4K TV but I don't imagine it's going to be too pretty, I might have the wrong impression but I keep thinking of how bad SD content can look on an HDTV.

If you bought a 1080p TV today by the time you were ready to upgrade in 4-6 years 4K will finally be getting it's legs and be a much better and more affordable option.

Exactly. I think it would be a total waste of money to buy a 4k set now, before there is any 4k content to watch. By the time there is content, the 4k sets will be better, and cheaper than they are right now. The whole future proofing thing makes no sense. You just end up with substandard, over priced hardware, and a desire to get the latest greatest when the technology finally becomes the norm.
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post #34 of 51 Old 12-02-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

No, not luma "changes".  Luma resolution. 
If one pixel is one luma value and the next pixel is a different luma value and the eye notices that, the eye has noticed that change in luma between those pixels.
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Don't make the common mistake that color subsampling is a pseudonym for bit depth or other color depth compression.
Where did I?
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post #35 of 51 Old 12-02-2013, 12:23 PM
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No, not luma "changes".  Luma resolution. 
If one pixel is one luma value and the next pixel is a different luma value and the eye notices that, the eye has noticed that change in luma between those pixels.
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Don't make the common mistake that color subsampling is a pseudonym for bit depth or other color depth compression.
Where did I?

 

Fair enough; apparently you didn't.  When you said "changes" I read it in the conversational way one would say that things change.  Over time, (as in the luma changes of a single pixel over time), not spatially across multiple pixels across the screen.


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post #36 of 51 Old 12-04-2013, 02:07 PM
 
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This is so true. 1080p with 12-bit 4:4:4 color sample would blow away UHD.

why?
with UHD you have more pixels and more pixels means more colors on the screen at the same time.
great for color depth and details.

but its true that only a 4K OLED or a 4K QD (quantum dot) LED will reach rec2020 gamut.
white led backlight will allways kill the colors
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post #37 of 51 Old 12-07-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

why?
with UHD you have more pixels and more pixels means more colors on the screen at the same time.
great for color depth and details.
While increasing the resolution does give you more pixels that does not change the bit depth or color space. In my opinion for UHDTV to take off it will have to increase more than just the number of pixels.

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but its true that only a 4K OLED or a 4K QD (quantum dot) LED will reach rec2020 gamut.
white led backlight will allways kill the colors
RGB LED can support some very wide color spaces and has been used for professional LCD monitors. Also even 70% of the Rec. 2020 color space would be a noticeable improvement over the Rec. 709 color space so if the CE companies had wanted to they could easily release displays that support the Rec. 2020 color space that offer a noticeable improvement. That is why I am disappointed that the CE companies have decided to concentrate only on resolution.
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post #38 of 51 Old 12-07-2013, 01:38 PM
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^ The 4k blu-ray spec which will , hopefully, be announced in January at CES, will tell us if we are going to get more than an increase in pixels. Since we have the rec 2020 spec, HDMI 2.0 and the H265 codex which with main profile 10 can support 10 bit 2020 perhaps enough of the stars are alined to produce a 4k BD spec that requires or at least makes optional 10 bit 2020. Certainly hope so.
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post #39 of 51 Old 07-13-2014, 08:25 PM
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Post the truth about 4k

Honestly, I think "4k" is really just a scam response to people asking, "when is the next resolutionz gunna come out?!" and the companies saying, "well, let's throw them a bone" (basically, the same thing that happened when PS4 and Xbox one were released). Broadcast TV doesn't even carry 1080p yet, and all 4K will do is tax the hardware of the multimedia components (game consoles, computers, etc.) unnecessarily further with little benefit beyond 1080i/p. That's not to mention that the only time it will even be useful is with movies distributed on physical media (since slower internet connections will be too slow to stream that), web browsing, and gaming.
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post #40 of 51 Old 07-13-2014, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Channel 2012 View Post
Honestly, I think "4k" is really just a scam response to people asking, "when is the next resolutionz gunna come out?!" and the companies saying, "well, let's throw them a bone" (basically, the same thing that happened when PS4 and Xbox one were released). Broadcast TV doesn't even carry 1080p yet, and all 4K will do is tax the hardware of the multimedia components (game consoles, computers, etc.) unnecessarily further with little benefit beyond 1080i/p. That's not to mention that the only time it will even be useful is with movies distributed on physical media (since slower internet connections will be too slow to stream that), web browsing, and gaming.
that is all regurgitated non sense written all over the internet. IMO before judging it check it out for your self if its not for you that's fine. the only thing stopping people from buying a 4k set is the prices and lack of a lot of content. there is content available to enjoy right now and believe it or not you dont need a high speed internet connection to enjoy it for Netflix some have 15-20 Mbps connections. the ps4 and xbox contrary to what Sony and Microsoft try to make them out to be are just gaming consoles. they can only play photos and video in 4k and that s a big maybe for both of them, they can barely handle constant 1080/60 fps. i agree with you on one thing they're just coming out with something new to sell more TVs, but i don't see the harm in making improvements. it has a purpose mainly for 65'' or larger sets and above where some sets dont look as good, where you begin to see the lower pixel density. if you don't like it no one is forcing you to buy it. i just recommend doing more research than believing whatever you read.
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post #41 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Channel 2012 View Post
Honestly, I think "4k" is really just a scam response to people asking, "when is the next resolutionz gunna come out?!" and the companies saying, "well, let's throw them a bone"
You're free to purchase a 2K set if you feel that strongly about it. But unless it's a small TV, I guarantee you, you'll sooner or later regret it.

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that is all regurgitated non sense written all over the internet.
Correct.

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post #42 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 01:46 PM
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ill look at a 4k tv when prices drop on 70'+ tvs
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post #43 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 01:56 PM
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All I can say is I've seen native 4K content on a 50" 4K Samsung demo set and it is spectacular! The honest-to-goodness "window effect" that HD promised but didn't deliver. It's freaky how clear and crisp it is. And that's true at any screen size, but will obviously be more beneficial the larger the display.

OLED will be good, probably have great color rendition, but will lack the fine resolution of 4K. But I suppose there will be 4K OLED, which would seem to give you the best of all possible worlds.

That said, I'm waiting a few years for 4K content to be mass-delivered and the prices to drop. I'm a lot more enthused about the increased resolution of 4K than the contrast and color of OLED at 1080p.
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post #44 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by enzo631 View Post
In your opinion, is it worth waiting until next year to purchase a 4k tv?

I can't see how this is a realistic question; unless you want a 70-inch diagonal 4K TV, you could sit just 4.3 feet away from.


Must have a small bedroom.
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post #45 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 02:06 PM
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That said, I'm waiting a few years for 4K content to be mass-delivered and the prices to drop. I'm a lot more enthused about the increased resolution of 4K than the contrast and color of OLED at 1080p.
4k oled will be out in a month or two
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post #46 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 04:36 PM
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I can't see how this is a realistic question; unless you want a 70-inch diagonal 4K TV, you could sit just 4.3 feet away from.


Must have a small bedroom.

Oh good grief....

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post #47 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 05:12 PM
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Post resolution

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Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post
that is all regurgitated non sense written all over the internet. IMO before judging it check it out for your self if its not for you that's fine. the only thing stopping people from buying a 4k set is the prices and lack of a lot of content. there is content available to enjoy right now and believe it or not you dont need a high speed internet connection to enjoy it for Netflix some have 15-20 Mbps connections. the ps4 and xbox contrary to what Sony and Microsoft try to make them out to be are just gaming consoles. they can only play photos and video in 4k and that s a big maybe for both of them, they can barely handle constant 1080/60 fps. i agree with you on one thing they're just coming out with something new to sell more TVs, but i don't see the harm in making improvements. it has a purpose mainly for 65'' or larger sets and above where some sets dont look as good, where you begin to see the lower pixel density. if you don't like it no one is forcing you to buy it. i just recommend doing more research than believing whatever you read.
You misunderstood my comment about the next generation consoles. I wasn't talking about graphics, I was simply comparing the similarities in their launch to the "release?" of "4K" flatpanels.

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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
You're free to purchase a 2K set if you feel that strongly about it. But unless it's a small TV, I guarantee you, you'll sooner or later regret it.
I've already got one. It was a freebie on Craiglist a couple years ago and our family has never regretted it.
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post #48 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 06:12 PM
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You misunderstood my comment about the next generation consoles. I wasn't talking about graphics, I was simply comparing the similarities in their launch to the "release?" of "4K" it.
As a xbone 1 owner, I def understand that analogy
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post #49 of 51 Old 07-14-2014, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't see how this is a realistic question; unless you want a 70-inch diagonal 4K TV, you could sit just 4.3 feet away from.


Must have a small bedroom.
Well it was a realistic question when I asked the question LAST YEAR when less information was known about 4k. Thanks for responding though.
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post #50 of 51 Old 07-17-2014, 08:54 AM
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Is there any work being done on a 4K disc format?

Or a broadcast format? Are the cable TV companies considering it?
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post #51 of 51 Old 07-17-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Is there any work being done on a 4K disc format?

Or a broadcast format? Are the cable TV companies considering it?
And the crux of the problem...

It was discussed quite a bit in this thread
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