Vizio drops 3d for all 2014 sets - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/6/5279150/vizio-announces-first-consumer-4k-tvs-kills-3d-support

Curious to see if anyone else follows. I do hope their reference series is a solid competitor to other flagship models.
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post #2 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 07:17 AM
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The main advantage of 4K up to 100'' is improved 3D quality. This Vizio decision makes their mediocre ''UHD'' TVs pretty much useless as main TV. Aside from that this is bad news for the 3D movement smile.gif
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post #3 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The main advantage of 4K up to 100'' is improved 3D quality. This Vizio decision makes their mediocre ''UHD'' TVs pretty much useless as main TV. Aside from that this is bad news for the 3D movement smile.gif

 

This is just weird and sad news.  And before anyone hops on the "but the 3D channels were removed" bull@#$% broken logic, note: those were misimplementations of 3D that made no sense in the first place.  The movie paradigm makes sense in that I *want* 3D movies to be viewable on my TV.

 

And so do my kids.  Very enthusiastically.  This would be terrible if it spreads as a concept.  To label a vehicle for increasing overall immersion (not optical immersion, but conceptual immersion) as a "gimmick" is just outright nuts.  Using anything in a movie as a "gimmick" is bad, including 3D.  Using 3D properly however, is very valuable and no gimmick at all.

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post #4 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 07:42 AM
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There's a bigger problem here too, that we've talked circles around in various ways.  The public doesn't seem to care that Vizio PQ is crap.  (At least, I've never seen a Vizio display of any note).  Will there always be a race to the bottom in PQ?  Or will the "crap" quality simply get better enough to satisfy even those of us who can see the difference?

 

The Chinese brands (not OEMers) are a huge wildcard, so let's put them aside for a second.  But out of these "majors":

  • Vizio
  • Sharp
  • Sony
  • Panasonic
  • LG
  • Samsung
     

....is Vizio the only TV manufacturer making any money?  (Cue the big guns: Rogo, Slacker, Chronoptimist, etc., in 5....4....3....2.... )


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post #5 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 07:43 AM
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The article indicates that Vizio is dropping 3D because of lack of consumer demand (specifically, because "Vizio's current customers simply aren't viewing content in 3D often". So the reason they're releasing 4k TVs is because of overwhelming consumer demand? rolleyes.gif This doesn't make sense to me. I'm encouraged that they seem to be focusing on delivering TVs with higher picture quality, but more choices in the passive 4k/1080p to each eye market would've been really nice.
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post #6 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 07:44 AM
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In the interview I saw with Matt McRae who is CTO he said after doing considerable research regarding 3D they concluded it was not that important to most of their customers. I personally rarely use it.
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post #7 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

This is just weird and sad news.  And before anyone hops on the "but the 3D channels were removed" bull@#$% broken logic, note: those were misimplementations of 3D that made no sense in the first place.  The movie paradigm makes sense in that I *want* 3D movies to be viewable on my TV.

And so do my kids.  Very enthusiastically.  This would be terrible if it spreads as a concept.  To label a vehicle for increasing overall immersion (not optical immersion, but conceptual immersion) as a "gimmick" is just outright nuts.  Using anything in a movie as a "gimmick" is bad, including 3D.  Using 3D properly however, is very valuable and no gimmick at all.
Relax Sir, I like Gravity too! wink.gif
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post #8 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 08:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

There's a bigger problem here too, that we've talked circles around in various ways.  The public doesn't seem to care that Vizio PQ is crap.  (At least, I've never seen a Vizio display of any note).  Will there always be a race to the bottom in PQ?  Or will the "crap" quality simply get better enough to satisfy even those of us who can see the difference?
There *has * been a race to the bottom in PQ in some respects with the falling out of FALD. And, as an aside, Mark Henninger (AVS contributor/team member/what have you) owns a Vizio (and he's a photographer/semi-videophile). He has nothing bad to say about it, which belies belief, don't it? biggrin.gif I guess it's a question of priorities...

On-topic, this doesn't bode well for 3D. Hopefully, that glasses-free solution infuses some life into the format and leaves Vizio in the dust.
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post #9 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 
will the "crap" quality simply get better enough to satisfy even those of us who can see the difference?
It has been said that the future ''crap'' OLED will have ok PQ (will start mailfunctioning after a year or so though..)
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post #10 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tezster View Post

I'm encouraged that they seem to be focusing on delivering TVs with higher picture quality

 

A TV manufacturer claiming that they're focusing on making TVs with better picture quality?  Not exactly a new pitch.  I'm betting what happened is Vizio mucks said: "We gotta shave off even more money to compete with Seiki, so Mr. Marketing Dept., come up with a nice way of spinning this".

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

There's a bigger problem here too, that we've talked circles around in various ways.  The public doesn't seem to care that Vizio PQ is crap.  (At least, I've never seen a Vizio display of any note).  Will there always be a race to the bottom in PQ?  Or will the "crap" quality simply get better enough to satisfy even those of us who can see the difference?
There *has * been a race to the bottom in PQ in some respects with the falling out of FALD. And, as an aside, Mark Henninger (AVS contributor/team member/what have you) owns a Vizio (and he's a photographer/semi-videophile). He has nothing bad to say about it, which belies belief, don't it? biggrin.gif I guess it's a question of priorities...

 

I don't know if it's unbelievable per se....he could well have been lucky.  It's just goes against my personal response from viewing these things in store; so perhaps I've seen "unlucky" panels.

 

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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

On-topic, this doesn't bode well for 3D. Hopefully, that glasses-free solution infuses some life into the format and leaves Vizio in the dust.

 

I'm guessing that 4K will make that particular technology ever harder to achieve, but of course, can't be sure.


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post #11 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:11 AM
 
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The company implementing it (Stream TV Networks) claims to be equipped for the challenge, but we shall see.
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post #12 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:22 AM
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The main advantage of 4K up to 100'' is improved 3D quality. This Vizio decision makes their mediocre ''UHD'' TVs pretty much useless as main TV. Aside from that this is bad news for the 3D movement smile.gif
Well it's more of a theoretical advantage - I don't think there have been any 4K sets with passive 3D that used more than 540p for their FPR.


I would like to see 3D stick around though, and passive 4K 3DTVs move to 1080p.
I still couldn't care less about 3D movies/TV, but if crosstalk is low enough, I would definitely be interested in using 3D all the time with games.
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post #13 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The main advantage of 4K up to 100'' is improved 3D quality. This Vizio decision makes their mediocre ''UHD'' TVs pretty much useless as main TV. Aside from that this is bad news for the 3D movement smile.gif
Well it's more of a theoretical advantage - I don't think there have been any 4K sets with passive 3D that used more than 540p for their FPR.

 

The complaint that zipped around like wildfire was that the XBR-55X900A did that little grotesque trick because of limited vertical viewing angle.  The XBR-65X900A is 1080p 3D.


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post #14 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The complaint that zipped around like wildfire was that the XBR-55X900A did that little grotesque trick because of limited vertical viewing angle.  The XBR-65X900A is 1080p 3D.
I wasn't aware of that. It's probably related to their size - it seems that there is a limit on how small the FPR can be.
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post #15 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:45 AM
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Well it's more of a theoretical advantage - I don't think there have been any 4K sets with passive 3D that used more than 540p for their FPR.

 

The complaint that zipped around like wildfire was that the XBR-55X900A did that little grotesque trick because of limited vertical viewing angle.  The XBR-65X900A is 1080p 3D.

 


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post #16 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The complaint that zipped around like wildfire was that the XBR-55X900A did that little grotesque trick because of limited vertical viewing angle.  The XBR-65X900A is 1080p 3D.
I wasn't aware of that. It's probably related to their size - it seems that there is a limit on how small the FPR can be.

 

Yes.  I have theories about this, but they're just theories.

 

When viewing the 65" I did notice a nice 1080p 3D image, but I also noticed that the usable vertical viewing angle seemed hacked in half.  I believe this is because the FPR hovers over the LCD array, unlike the PR which was actually part of LCD filters themselves (which isn't there anyway on a trilum display).  I believe that the distance (in Z) over the scanline is roughly the same as it is for any screen size and 2K.  Since the 4K scanline is roughly half the height (and hence the FPR for any given eye is half height), the distance in Z should ideally be halved as well, but it isn't.

 

I noticed on the 65" X9 that the vertical viewing angle was almost annoying to me.  It was no where near as forgiving as my 60R550A (2K FPR).  I can see how an even thinner scanline would be prohibitively restrictive.


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post #17 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 10:10 AM
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Nobody that is really interested in 3d at home where buying visio TVs.

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post #18 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 10:13 AM
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Nobody that is really interested in 3d at home where buying visio TVs.

 

...................................................why?

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post #19 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Nobody that is really interested in 3d at home where buying visio TVs.

 

...................................................why?


3d is still a premium product. Visio is not a premium manufacturer.

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post #20 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 11:45 AM
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Nobody that is really interested in 3d at home where buying visio TVs.

 

...................................................why?


3d is still a premium product. Visio is not a premium manufacturer.

 

For my TV (sony KDL-60R550A ... FPR), the difference between the 3D version and non-3D version was something like $100.  It's not a pricey thing to implement.

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post #21 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 11:59 AM
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I think the point is that 3D content is a premium product, rather than the cost of adding 3D.
Your only source is to subscribe to an expensive 3D cable/satellite package, buy 3D Blu-rays, or own a high-end gaming PC.
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post #22 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 12:03 PM
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I think the point is that 3D content is a premium product, rather than the cost of adding 3D.
Your only source is to subscribe to an expensive 3D cable/satellite package, buy 3D Blu-rays, or own a high-end gaming PC.

 

Any FIOS package level (even the lowest one) will allow you to rent 3D for $7.99 max.  I just did Monster's U.  And they had all the recent releases there, including Star Trek.

 

Besides, if he was talking about 3D content, then why indict Vizio.  Was the point that if you're wealthy enough to get 3D content then you're wealthy enough to buy a better TV?  I'm not sure that makes any sense.


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post #23 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 12:38 PM
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I don't care as long as 3D blu-rays are still available for new movie releases. I'll probably never buy a Vizio. I wonder if Vizio is waiting on newer 3D technology like glasses free 3D.
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post #24 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 12:54 PM
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Vizio figured out that there is a connection between those who buy cheap TV's and those who do not buy (3D) blu-ray's/ watch 3D channels ( that is what David_B was talking about). So, no, Vizio is not waiting for newer 3D technology smile.gif
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post #25 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 03:22 PM
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Cnet article about the 65" (and 120" coming later this year) UHD Reference series TVs:

http://reviews.cnet.com/tvs/vizio-rs120/4505-6475_7-35833922.html?autoplay=true

The television in question is the Vizio Reference Series, all-new for 2014. The company is announcing 65- and 120-inch versions at CES 2014. The latter is the largest shipping TV announced this year, as far as I know, beating out Samsung's 110-inch S9.


  • In Vizio's own words: "Starting from scratch and building from the ground up, Reference Series sets a new benchmark for best in class TV."
  • The Reference Series has all the bona fides required on paper. 4K resolution.
  • A color gamut that approaches the lofty heights of Rec 2020, something never before claimed by any TV.
  • A true 10-bit panel, for finer color gradations. A full-array local dimming LED LCD backlight, complete with 384 zones and "incredibly precise" control thanks to "Active Pixel Tuning."
  • A searing 800-nit Ultra Bright backlight combined with Dolby's own HDR processing for more realistic contrast.
  • A "motion rate of 1800" might be inflated, but in any case the TV should bust blur with the best of 'em.
  • A quad-core GPU and dual-core CPU power image and graphics processing as well as Smart TV.
  • A pair of dedicated engines handle upconversion, detail enhancement and gamma control, while simultaneously reducing noise and artifacts.
  • The TV can even display games at 120 frames-per-second, and film at both 24 and 48 FPS. Now if only New Line would release a compatible HFR version of The Hobbit.
  • Connectivity includes five HDMI inputs, all blessed with HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 compliance.
  • The requisite HEVC decoding is also on-board, hardware-based, for efficient 4K streaming from so-enabled apps like Netflix and Amazon Instant Video. Like Vizio's other 4K TVs, it also supports 802.11ac Wi-Fi, with "dual band MIMO support for UHD streaming."


All these specs and more amount to a videophile's dream LCD TV—if that's not a contradiction in terms. And there is precedent. The best LED LCD TV we've ever reviewed, Sharp's Elite, impressed videophiles enough to take a prestigious shootout. The Reference Series is a similar beast on paper, and if Vizio can deliver on its promises, a new videophile king will be crowned. At least until OLEDs get bigger.
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post #26 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 06:10 PM
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Vizio can spin all they want but until they have a shipping model and it gets into the hands of the consumer I'll take this with a grain of salt. I really hope that Vizio can deliver but I'm leery of their quality.
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post #27 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:03 PM
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In the interview I saw with Matt McRae who is CTO he said after doing considerable research regarding 3D they concluded it was not that important to most of their customers. I personally rarely use it.

Some of us tried to explain this months ago... But the proponents couldn't accept reality.

3-D is basically dead as a home format. It's not streamable on most major streaming services, is going to leave Netflix as quietly and quickly as it arrived, is not available from the most important video-rental service in the country, and is essentially a niche format that is popular with a really small set of customers. Fortunately, those people are likely to be able to continue to enjoy it for at least a while....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #28 of 121 Old 01-06-2014, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Cnet article about the 65" (and 120" coming later this year) UHD Reference series TVs:

http://reviews.cnet.com/tvs/vizio-rs120/4505-6475_7-35833922.html?autoplay=true

The television in question is the Vizio Reference Series, all-new for 2014. The company is announcing 65- and 120-inch versions at CES 2014. The latter is the largest shipping TV announced this year, as far as I know, beating out Samsung's 110-inch S9.


  • In Vizio's own words: "Starting from scratch and building from the ground up, Reference Series sets a new benchmark for best in class TV."
  • The Reference Series has all the bona fides required on paper. 4K resolution.
  • A color gamut that approaches the lofty heights of Rec 2020, something never before claimed by any TV.
  • A true 10-bit panel, for finer color gradations. A full-array local dimming LED LCD backlight, complete with 384 zones and "incredibly precise" control thanks to "Active Pixel Tuning."
  • A searing 800-nit Ultra Bright backlight combined with Dolby's own HDR processing for more realistic contrast.
  • A "motion rate of 1800" might be inflated, but in any case the TV should bust blur with the best of 'em.
  • A quad-core GPU and dual-core CPU power image and graphics processing as well as Smart TV.
  • A pair of dedicated engines handle upconversion, detail enhancement and gamma control, while simultaneously reducing noise and artifacts.
  • The TV can even display games at 120 frames-per-second, and film at both 24 and 48 FPS. Now if only New Line would release a compatible HFR version of The Hobbit.
  • Connectivity includes five HDMI inputs, all blessed with HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 compliance.
  • The requisite HEVC decoding is also on-board, hardware-based, for efficient 4K streaming from so-enabled apps like Netflix and Amazon Instant Video. Like Vizio's other 4K TVs, it also supports 802.11ac Wi-Fi, with "dual band MIMO support for UHD streaming."


All these specs and more amount to a videophile's dream LCD TV—if that's not a contradiction in terms. And there is precedent. The best LED LCD TV we've ever reviewed, Sharp's Elite, impressed videophiles enough to take a prestigious shootout. The Reference Series is a similar beast on paper, and if Vizio can deliver on its promises, a new videophile king will be crowned. At least until OLEDs get bigger.


The 120" is basically vaporware with maybe a few units made for oil sheiks and movie producers. The reference series does sound nice. It is a shame that only size will be 65" and have no 3D. One of the great advantages of 4K is its ability to show excellent passive 3D. I can understand taking it out of the 1080p models, but why out of the 4K. Does it reduce the picture quality of 2D somehow?
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post #29 of 121 Old 01-07-2014, 05:56 AM
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I can't say that it would have been an entirely different world now, but 3D would definitely have been a more ubiquitous technology had active-3D never ever existed.  That infernal flash/flash/flash/flash joke technology with it's originally super heavy and expensive battery driven glasses hung around the neck of the 3D world like a rotting fish on a string.

 

You ask the average person about 3D TVs, and I can guarantee you that almost none of them heard of passive 3D.  It's common for a guest at my house to see the slew of glasses that I have and shake their head at how expensive it must be.  They always think they're about $75 each.

 

The true longer term problem with 3D however isn't that, but is this relentless misconception that it's a somehow an element of a movie that can stand on its own merits without the plot of the movie, when in fact it's a means to better deliver the plot of the movie.  From either confusion or sheer stupidity or both, people never quite learned the lessons of Avatar and Gravity, or did so too late, and as a result we're stuck in an ocean of "3D is gimmicky" ignorant statements.

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post #30 of 121 Old 01-07-2014, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony looks to Have gone with active 3d for their 2014 high end models fwiw.

Seeing that neither Sony Samsung or LG even brought up 3D tech advances as part of their press releases tells me their faith in the tech is very low.
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