Does 720p material look better on a 720p display? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 01-10-2014, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been searching around the internet for an answer on this but, surprisingly, I can't find it.

 

If you're planning on displaying mainly 720p material (say Battlefield 4 for the Xbox One), will it look better on native 720p display or will it look better on an upscaled 1080p display? 

 

Basically, could a cheaper 720p HDTV be superior to a 1080p HDTV for displaying 720p material?

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post #2 of 13 Old 01-10-2014, 10:39 PM
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If you are talking about games or hooking a PC up to the display, 720p will look much better when 1:1 mapped on a 1280x720 screen. (or better yet, 1:3 mapped on a 4K display)
For video, it should look better when upscaled.

However, most "720p" televisions on the market are 1366x768 and not 1280x720 native.
If the image is being scaled, the more resolution you have, the better it should look, so a 1080p panel would be preferable to a "768p" one.

And generally, any "768p" panel available today is not going to be as good as a modern 1080p panel.
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post #3 of 13 Old 01-10-2014, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czilla9000 View Post

I've been searching around the internet for an answer on this but, surprisingly, I can't find it.
If you're planning on displaying mainly 720p material (say Battlefield 4 for the Xbox One), will it look better on native 720p display or will it look better on an upscaled 1080p display? 
Basically, could a cheaper 720p HDTV be superior to a 1080p HDTV for displaying 720p material?

Theoretical answer is that properly conditioned signal will be best (re)presented at its native resolution. But often signals are not properly conditioned and this in particular is true for computer games where there is tradeoff between the computing power and quality of presentation, leading to the quality settings like AA, anisotropic filtering and so on. Some of the subjective quality improvement can in this case be done by the resolution upconversion processing in the receiver or console. Resolution upconversion has made a big jump with the introduction of 4K receivers. Thus, 720p (game) content may subjectively look better on a 1080p, and much better at 2160p/4K display. This may also depend on the settings of console and TV, e.g. if the console is set to 1080p, the TV does nothing, but if the console is set to 1080p the TV does upconversion.

As you can see there is no simple answer to your problem especially if one would take into account the viewing distance and display size. As always, the most critical for gaming is display delay. And generally, cheaper sets tend to have cheaper PQ.

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post #4 of 13 Old 01-10-2014, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Theoretical answer is that properly conditioned signal will be best (re)presented at its native resolution. But often signals are not properly conditioned and this in particular is true for computer games where there is tradeoff between the computing power and quality of presentation, leading to the quality settings like AA, anisotropic filtering and so on. Some of the subjective quality improvement can in this case be done by the resolution upconversion processing in the receiver or console. Resolution upconversion has made a big jump with the introduction of 4K receivers. Thus, 720p (game) content may subjectively look better on a 1080p, and much better at 2160p/4K display. This may also depend on the settings of console and TV, e.g. if the console is set to 1080p, the TV does nothing, but if the console is set to 1080p the TV does upconversion.
You have this completely backwards.

Games and PC content always look best when 1:1 mapped, or with integer scaling. (e.g. 720p x3 on a 4K display, but not 720p x1.5 on a 1080p display)
Non-integer scaling can be very destructive to a PC/Game image.

Video should look best when upscaled by at least a factor of 2. Non-integer scaling is far less of an issue with video.
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post #5 of 13 Old 01-11-2014, 02:57 AM
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If the source is fully anti-aliased (smooth natural look, no sharp edges), then it should look very similar when upsampled. If it's not anti-aliased, then upsampling will look different - perhaps adding undesirable fuzziness.
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post #6 of 13 Old 01-11-2014, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

If the source is fully anti-aliased (smooth natural look, no sharp edges), then it should look very similar when upsampled. If it's not anti-aliased, then upsampling will look different - perhaps adding undesirable fuzziness.
Which is another way of saying that games look bad when upscaled, and video looks fine.
Properly anti-aliasing the image cripples even the highest-end gaming PCs. Console games barely use any anti-aliasing at all.
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post #7 of 13 Old 01-11-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

You have this completely backwards. Games and PC content always look best when 1:1 mapped, or with integer scaling. (e.g. 720p x3 on a 4K display, but not 720p x1.5 on a 1080p display) Non-integer scaling can be very destructive to a PC/Game image. Video should look best when upscaled by at least a factor of 2. Non-integer scaling is far less of an issue with video.

Apparently you have in mind pixel replication when talking about scaling. Both integer and non-integer scaling require proper filtering to avoid artefacts

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post #8 of 13 Old 01-11-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Apparently you have in mind pixel replication when talking about scaling. Both integer and non-integer scaling require proper filtering to avoid artefacts
Not with PC/Game content. Filtered scaling looks terrible with that.
I am not going to have this debate with you again, as you clearly have no experience in this area.
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post #9 of 13 Old 01-12-2014, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so 720p games look better on a 720p display. 

 

What about downscaling? Does downscaling 1080p games to 720p introduce artifacts? Do you still benefit from the reduction in aliasing that a 1080p rendered game has on a 720p display?

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post #10 of 13 Old 01-12-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Czilla9000 View Post

Ok, so 720p games look better on a 720p display.
Only if it actually has 1280x720 pixels, and supports 1:1 mapping. (no overscan)
If you're looking at 1366x768 native displays (which are often mistakenly called "720p" displays) you may as well buy a 1080p panel.
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Originally Posted by Czilla9000 View Post

What about downscaling? Does downscaling 1080p games to 720p introduce artifacts? Do you still benefit from the reduction in aliasing that a 1080p rendered game has on a 720p display?
If it is done properly, you should in theory benefit from 1080p being scaled down to 720p.
720p displays are typically low-end displays now, so I would not expect much from them, and I can't say how well a console does that sort of thing either.
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post #11 of 13 Old 01-13-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czilla9000 View Post

Ok, so 720p games look better on a 720p display.
Only if it actually has 1280x720 pixels, and supports 1:1 mapping. (no overscan)
If you're looking at 1366x768 native displays (which are often mistakenly called "720p" displays) you may as well buy a 1080p panel.

 

Do any 1366x768 displays have an option to 1:1 center a 1280x720 signal?  No horrible pixel nor screen space lost there. (6-7% each dimension).


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #12 of 13 Old 01-13-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Do any 1366x768 displays have an option to 1:1 center a 1280x720 signal?  No horrible pixel nor screen space lost there. (6-7% each dimension).
I think a handful of displays have offered this in the past, but I would be surprised if anything does now. TV manufacturers really don't like it when an image doesn't fill the screen.
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post #13 of 13 Old 01-14-2014, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Do any 1366x768 displays have an option to 1:1 center a 1280x720 signal?  No horrible pixel nor screen space lost there. (6-7% each dimension).
I think a handful of displays have offered this in the past, but I would be surprised if anything does now. TV manufacturers really don't like it when an image doesn't fill the screen.

 

Perhaps the moral of the story is the same M.O. I often suggest: try to download the manual of a product first before buying.  It ought to say in there.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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