4K Upscaling: Should I have much in the way of expectations? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 01-30-2014, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I won a drawing and the prize is a Samsung 55" UHD F9000. Yes I'm quite blown away. I pick it up tomorrow and can't wait to play with it. I know there's not much in the way of 4K content available. So I'm curious if I should have much in the way of expectations from upscaling. I don't do cable or satellite, just OTA and blu-ray. Will the Superbowl really be much better on this new set?
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post #2 of 23 Old 01-30-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jkhill View Post

Well I won a drawing and the prize is a Samsung 55" UHD F9000. Yes I'm quite blown away. I pick it up tomorrow and can't wait to play with it. I know there's not much in the way of 4K content available. So I'm curious if I should have much in the way of expectations from upscaling. I don't do cable or satellite, just OTA and blu-ray. Will the Superbowl really be much better on this new set?
Congratulations, very nice prize to win. Superbowl should look pretty good, I expect FOX will make a good looking broadcast. Blu ray disc will be more impressive than broadcast TV. You won't be blown away at first but you will be able sit closer and get a greater sense of you are there.
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post #3 of 23 Old 01-31-2014, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkhill View Post

Well I won a drawing and the prize is a Samsung 55" UHD F9000. Yes I'm quite blown away. I pick it up tomorrow and can't wait to play with it. I know there's not much in the way of 4K content available. So I'm curious if I should have much in the way of expectations from upscaling. I don't do cable or satellite, just OTA and blu-ray. Will the Superbowl really be much better on this new set?

 

I can't speak for Samsung, but I can say that the Sony upscaling (both 1080p->2160p and 480p->1080p) are excellent in their BDPs and displays, and the software technology involved in this level of upscaling isn't that difficult so perhaps the samsung will be just as stellar.  For Sony, I am less certain of the upscaling abilities of 480i and 1080i though: not that I am bashing it: I just haven't spent a lot of time with it.

 

Unfortunately what you'll get out of the FIOS and Comcast STB's is 480i60 and 1080i60.  If you have a version of the STB that allows you to convert the 1080i to 1080p before sending it out, turn it off. You want the TV making those decisions, not the STB.

 

I've heard that DirecTV has some access to 1080p sources and will output those as such.


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post #4 of 23 Old 01-31-2014, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I only do OTA, Apple TV, and Smart TV streaming. I guess Netflix is supposed to start streaming 4K this March. From what I've read a lot more 4K content will become available this year. I do a lot of photography too so I'm looking forward to viewing my photographs also. I pick it up in a couple hours. Woo hoo!!!
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post #5 of 23 Old 01-31-2014, 09:37 AM
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Are all 4K UHD TVs HEVC/H.265 compliant? Is the High Efficiency Video Coding standard set in stone or is it likely to change?
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post #6 of 23 Old 01-31-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I can't speak for Samsung, but I can say that the Sony upscaling (both 1080p->2160p and 480p->1080p) are excellent in their BDPs and displays, and the software technology involved in this level of upscaling isn't that difficult so perhaps the samsung will be just as stellar.  For Sony, I am less certain of the upscaling abilities of 480i and 1080i though: not that I am bashing it: I just haven't spent a lot of time with it.

Unfortunately what you'll get out of the FIOS and Comcast STB's is 480i60 and 1080i60.  If you have a version of the STB that allows you to convert the 1080i to 1080p before sending it out, turn it off. You want the TV making those decisions, not the STB.

I've heard that DirecTV has some access to 1080p sources and will output those as such.

How is up scaling effected by whether the signal is interlaced or progressive? I would think the logic would be exactly the same.

How would the TV convert an interlaced signal to progressive any differently than a set top box would? Isn't there only one way to do this? Don't you just combine consecutive interlaced frames into a single progressive fame?
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post #7 of 23 Old 01-31-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I can't speak for Samsung, but I can say that the Sony upscaling (both 1080p->2160p and 480p->1080p) are excellent in their BDPs and displays, and the software technology involved in this level of upscaling isn't that difficult so perhaps the samsung will be just as stellar.  For Sony, I am less certain of the upscaling abilities of 480i and 1080i though: not that I am bashing it: I just haven't spent a lot of time with it.

Unfortunately what you'll get out of the FIOS and Comcast STB's is 480i60 and 1080i60.  If you have a version of the STB that allows you to convert the 1080i to 1080p before sending it out, turn it off. You want the TV making those decisions, not the STB.

I've heard that DirecTV has some access to 1080p sources and will output those as such.

How is up scaling effected by whether the signal is interlaced or progressive? I would think the logic would be exactly the same.

How would the TV convert an interlaced signal to progressive any differently than a set top box would? Isn't there only one way to do this? Don't you just combine consecutive interlaced frames into a single progressive fame?

 

1. No, because technically 60Hz Interlaced can be either 30 FPS or 60 FPS.  This is more complicated than it seems.  Consider: how do you interpolate between frames when successive frames have moved in the time domain while down a scanline and then back up a moment later?  You can do it of course, and they do, but it's not a simple problem.

 

B. Further, you can get oddball pulldown effects from this.  Google "telecine pulldown".  Telecine judder is grotesque if not handled properly.  Even something that seems simple like "line doubling" can cause artifacts.

 

iii. I have a 2K TV, so I can speak for SD->2K.  Normally FIOS tries to upscale from 480i to 1080i.  When I tested having FIOS pass through SD 480i to my TV, my TV did a better job.  Remember (this applies in both cases)-->The TV is in charge of both the upscale AND interpolation.  When it's in charge of both, then any interation issues from frame to frame can be handled properly.  When I tested having FIOS convert it's native 480i to 480p, it introduced horrible artifacts when the TV attempted to take the bastardized 480 and move it up to 1080.

 

four.  Sony BDP does a much better job of upscaling DVD 480p -> 1080p than the panasonic upscaling DVD player did on my father's plasma.  Upscaling across manufacturers is clearly not created equal.


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post #8 of 23 Old 01-31-2014, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I got it home and set up today. I can say in my brief time playing with it this afternoon and this evening, the upscaling does make a significant improvement of most images. Of course the amount of improvement depends on the quality of the input to begin with. I watched streams from Apple TV, Netflix, and Vimeo. I watched movie trailers and Harry Potter Deathly Hallows II. They all were a visible improvement in image quality. I'm quite pleased and can't wait to dig into 4K content here in the future. Awesome stuff!
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-01-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkhill View Post

Well I got it home and set up today. I can say in my brief time playing with it this afternoon and this evening, the upscaling does make a significant improvement of most images. Of course the amount of improvement depends on the quality of the input to begin with. I watched streams from Apple TV, Netflix, and Vimeo. I watched movie trailers and Harry Potter Deathly Hallows II. They all were a visible improvement in image quality. I'm quite pleased and can't wait to dig into 4K content here in the future. Awesome stuff!

Thanks for the update. What brand/model of TV is your new Sammy replacing? How does good OTA (like the various local HD news broadcasts for instance) look compared to your previous TV?

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post #10 of 23 Old 02-01-2014, 05:21 PM
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Very interesting since I was in Best Buy and the 65 inch Samsung 4K blew me away showing 4K material off a USB drive and when i asked salesman how regular HD cable would look on this set he said it was like what standard tv looked like on early HD sets which was horrible.

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post #11 of 23 Old 02-01-2014, 05:27 PM
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^^^^ I wouldn't believe everything you are told by BB employees. Remember, these are the folks who will sell you Monster HDMI cables for a premium price because "you can't get anything better than Monster"...
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-01-2014, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post

Very interesting since I was in Best Buy and the 65 inch Samsung 4K blew me away showing 4K material off a USB drive and when i asked salesman how regular HD cable would look on this set he said it was like what standard tv looked like on early HD sets which was horrible.

That guy has to be wrong. I was in BB's Magnolia section today and spent some time with the LG and Sony 55" UHD 4K LCD TVs and BB's regular HD store feed looked better on those two 4K sets than on any of the 1080p LCD TVs in the same room. The image was smoother and more natural looking, facial detail was better, and text was cleaner, and lacking the jaggies and stair stepping effect on round or diagonal letters that were very apparent on the 1080p sets (like the number zero and letter N etc). I really like what i'm seeing so far, but neither set is worth the $3,000 price tag.

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post #13 of 23 Old 02-01-2014, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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The TV this replaces I purchased about four or five months ago. It is a LG 55LA6200 55" smart TV. I've been very pleased with the LG and it will be relocated to the bedroom in place of a Samsung LN46A650A that was put there when I bought the LG. I'll have to figure out what to do with the old Sammy.

My experience is, OTA broadcasts are much better, crisper images. That said, broadcast signal quality can vary a great deal. Prime time shows, newscasts, and movies are noticeably improved. I agree with Otto. Many BB employees tell you only what they are told to tell you as opposed to what they more likely haven't experienced.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post

Very interesting since I was in Best Buy and the 65 inch Samsung 4K blew me away showing 4K material off a USB drive and when i asked salesman how regular HD cable would look on this set he said it was like what standard tv looked like on early HD sets which was horrible.


The guy doesn't understand display technology.


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post #15 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 10:17 AM
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Does anyone know if 2014 4K displays are native compatible with HEVC (H.265) or H.264 (MPEG-4 AVC)?
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Plasma is on its way out, so stores with Plasma in their name will replace it.
Cleveland Plasma LED
https://clevelandplasma.com/

to make it future proof the new name will be
Cleveland Plasma (O)LED

The same is going to happen with stores and sites with HD in their name..

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post #17 of 23 Old 02-02-2014, 11:12 AM
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Plasma is on its way out, so stores with Plasma in their name will replace it.
Cleveland Plasma LED
https://clevelandplasma.com/

to make it future proof the new name will be
Cleveland Plasma (O)LED


Shouldn't that be Curveland Plasma OLED ?

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post #18 of 23 Old 02-08-2014, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkhill View Post

The TV this replaces I purchased about four or five months ago. It is a LG 55LA6200 55" smart TV. I've been very pleased with the LG and it will be relocated to the bedroom in place of a Samsung LN46A650A that was put there when I bought the LG. I'll have to figure out what to do with the old Sammy.

My experience is, OTA broadcasts are much better, crisper images. That said, broadcast signal quality can vary a great deal. Prime time shows, newscasts, and movies are noticeably improved. I agree with Otto. Many BB employees tell you only what they are told to tell you as opposed to what they more likely haven't experienced.

Do you have an Xbox One or a Playstation 4? I'm very curious how good that stuff looks upconverted to 4k.
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post #19 of 23 Old 02-08-2014, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have either. Apple TV and blue ray is it. Both of those upscale nicely. Overall I've been quite pleased.

Regards
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It is going to be several years before OLED becomes a major seller, if ever; so I would suggest that they cover all the bases by just naming it Cleveland Video Displays.
He apparently settled on Cleveland AV.
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post #21 of 23 Old 05-04-2014, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jkhill View Post

Well I got it home and set up today. I can say in my brief time playing with it this afternoon and this evening, the upscaling does make a significant improvement of most images. Of course the amount of improvement depends on the quality of the input to begin with. I watched streams from Apple TV, Netflix, and Vimeo. I watched movie trailers and Harry Potter Deathly Hallows II. They all were a visible improvement in image quality. I'm quite pleased and can't wait to dig into 4K content here in the future. Awesome stuff!

I just brought my 65" F9000 home and so far I am disappointed. I tried watching a blu ray through my PS4 and it was being upscaled by the receiver and the picture was not great at all. When I hooked the PS4 up directly to the tv (bypassing the receiver) the picture seemed to improve greatly, but it still isn't fantastic. I am trying to find out the best way to hook everything up to get the optimal picture. Can anyone help? I don't want to have to return this tv and buy an Aquos Q+ series.
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-04-2014, 06:36 AM
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I just brought my 65" F9000 home and so far I am disappointed. I tried watching a blu ray through my PS4 and it was being upscaled by the receiver and the picture was not great at all. When I hooked the PS4 up directly to the tv (bypassing the receiver) the picture seemed to improve greatly, but it still isn't fantastic. I am trying to find out the best way to hook everything up to get the optimal picture. Can anyone help? I don't want to have to return this tv and buy an Aquos Q+ series.

The F9000 does an excellent job upconverting/upscaling. CNET preferred its effort to the upconversion on the OPPO 103 (considered to be very good). With the new/upgraded one connect box, expected in June, the processor will be approximately doubled in speed (Same processor as on the 2014 UH9000) which CNET has said significantly improves upconversion over F9000.

The Samsung probably does a much job of upconversion than your receiver. However, if you go direct to the TV, you lose receiver support for lossless audio on Blu Rays. The solution is that most receivers have a "pass through" mode for video. Therefore, if you use HDMI from components (e.g., PS4) direct to the receiver, it processes the lossless audio and sends the video "untouched" to the TV for processing. That would probably be your best option.

Finally, if you aren't happy with the picture, I recommend you "google" "CNET review of Samsung F9000" and input their recommended settings. They made a very significant difference on my picture vs. settings direct from the factory.
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post #23 of 23 Old 06-25-2014, 04:15 AM
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Had my 65" F9000 all set up perfectly, as per CNETs settings, but still thought it would be a good idea to have the Geek Squad come and calibrate it to get better tones. What a mistake! Now I have washed out colors and a brutal spotlight effect happening in all 4 corners of the screen. Please help! I tried setting everything back to factory but these spotlights won't disappear! I definitely do not want to return the tv but the way it is now is unbearable! Anybody have any ideas I can try?


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Quote:Originally Posted by chatri3 

I just brought my 65" F9000 home and so far I am disappointed. I tried watching a blu ray through my PS4 and it was being upscaled by the receiver and the picture was not great at all. When I hooked the PS4 up directly to the tv (bypassing the receiver) the picture seemed to improve greatly, but it still isn't fantastic. I am trying to find out the best way to hook everything up to get the optimal picture. Can anyone help? I don't want to have to return this tv and buy an Aquos Q+ series.


The F9000 does an excellent job upconverting/upscaling. CNET preferred its effort to the upconversion on the OPPO 103 (considered to be very good). With the new/upgraded one connect box, expected in June, the processor will be approximately doubled in speed (Same processor as on the 2014 UH9000) which CNET has said significantly improves upconversion over F9000.

The Samsung probably does a much job of upconversion than your receiver. However, if you go direct to the TV, you lose receiver support for lossless audio on Blu Rays. The solution is that most receivers have a "pass through" mode for video. Therefore, if you use HDMI from components (e.g., PS4) direct to the receiver, it processes the lossless audio and sends the video "untouched" to the TV for processing. That would probably be your best option.

Finally, if you aren't happy with the picture, I recommend you "google" "CNET review of Samsung F9000" and input their recommended settings. They made a very significant difference on my picture vs. settings direct from the factory.
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