Sony TV business on its final way out? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Nowhere do I ever suggest Sony is closing its doors. (Except of course on the 20 retail stores it has announced it is closing.)

You forgot about them also selling their Tokyo HQ:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/28/sony-selling-old-tokyo-hq/
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post #92 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 06:26 AM
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I agree with you on a lot of your points rogo. I just don't believe it will get to the point where Sony will close its doors, not going to happen.

Nowhere do I ever suggest Sony is closing its doors. (Except of course on the 20 retail stores it has announced it is closing.)
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I was pissed about them selling off their Viao business but when I looked at it it made sense. Why keep making something when it aint selling and costing you money? Makes no sense so they got rid of it. Will their tv venture follow suit?

They have lost money in TVs in 10 years out of the last 10 years.
They have lost money in TVs in 13 of the past 14 quarters.
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What Sony should do is turn towards OLED. If any company can make a successful run with OLED Sony can. They have the means, capability, and money to do it. With OLED they can give Samsung a run for their money.

To build an OLED fab that can make TVs is a multi-billion-dollar investment. To make OLED TVs profitably requires mastering either LG's technology (which is patent protected) or printables (which they just spent a year developing tech for and failed to get anywhere).
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But if their banking on 4K to save their falling tv manufacturing business then they are in trouble, big trouble. To me 4K is the new flavor of the month just as 3D was and it wont help Sony out one bit, not with all the manufacturers getting in on the 4K craze.

Yes, so basically your own analysis concludes that Sony should abandon the TV business.

First Rogo I never said that you said Sony was closing its doors. Second. I also never said Sony should abandon the tv business. I just said that if they are banking on 4K saving their tv business they are going to lose in the end. That's what I meant.
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post #93 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Nowhere do I ever suggest Sony is closing its doors. (Except of course on the 20 retail stores it has announced it is closing.)

You forgot about them also selling their Tokyo HQ:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/28/sony-selling-old-tokyo-hq/


Its an old building so why not sell it?
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post #94 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 07:05 AM
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Its an old building so why not sell it?

Because if you let the media spin it they can make it sound like "doom and gloom" and we all know that is what keeps eyes on the screen.
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post #95 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 11:42 AM
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Perhaps 4K should be the flavor of the month but the manufactures will make sure that 4K is the flavor of the future. My guess is that with the exception of a small market penetration by OLED, 4K will be the only flavor for displays above 50" by the 2016 model year. Plasma 2K maybe but maybe not.
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post #96 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

You forgot about them also selling their Tokyo HQ:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/28/sony-selling-old-tokyo-hq/

It's funny, I just assumed that news was about a sale/leaseback deal to raise cash, so I didn't even read it initially. Now I see it's about some building of historical corporate significance.

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First Rogo I never said that you said Sony was closing its doors. Second. I also never said Sony should abandon the tv business. I just said that if they are banking on 4K saving their tv business they are going to lose in the end. That's what I meant.

The way you juxtaposed your words made it seem like you were trying to put several in my mouth.

I agree with you that 4K is not saving their business. Nor is it saving anyone's honestly. It's at best some incremental profit and Vizio is trying to make sure that incremental profit isn't much. It wants to clear the decks.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #97 of 144 Old 03-03-2014, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's at best some incremental profit and Vizio is trying to make sure that incremental profit isn't much. It wants to clear the decks.

 

If this is true, then I'm starting to resent them for more than just tossing 3D to the sidelines.


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post #98 of 144 Old 03-04-2014, 02:23 AM
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Just found this article on HDVTTEST regarding Sony loss of 4K market share: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/global-4k-201402273647.htm

-fafrd

Thanks for the link.

If that trend continues, then Sony will be back to a tiny market share in a market flooded with 4k TVs. Sony need to find a way to stand out from the crowd. The crowd will all be doing 4k, so 4k is not that differentiator. Almost by definition it cannot be, because for 4k to succeed a significant number of players must be doing it (otherwise content producers lose interest). The question they must answer is why you would want to buy *their* 4k set when there are many alternatives. Substitute 1080p for 4k in that question and you then have a question they haven't been able to satisfactorily answer given several years to answer it.

I don't know what Sony can do at this point. Maybe some content + TV deal? They do own the rights to quite a lot of content. I don't think they can hope to save themselves with, e.g., wedge designs.
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post #99 of 144 Old 03-12-2014, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fluxo View Post

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Just found this article on HDVTTEST regarding Sony loss of 4K market share: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/global-4k-201402273647.htm

-fafrd

Thanks for the link.

If that trend continues, then Sony will be back to a tiny market share in a market flooded with 4k TVs. Sony need to find a way to stand out from the crowd. The crowd will all be doing 4k, so 4k is not that differentiator. Almost by definition it cannot be, because for 4k to succeed a significant number of players must be doing it (otherwise content producers lose interest). The question they must answer is why you would want to buy *their* 4k set when there are many alternatives. Substitute 1080p for 4k in that question and you then have a question they haven't been able to satisfactorily answer given several years to answer it.

I don't know what Sony can do at this point. Maybe some content + TV deal? They do own the rights to quite a lot of content. I don't think they can hope to save themselves with, e.g., wedge designs.

I tried to start a new thread in the LCD Forum with this information, but it has apparently evaporated, so I'll post it here.

Just ran into this: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/samsung-vizio-control-u-smart-182100660.html

Top 5 United States Smart TV Vendors


United States Smart TV Vendor Market Share (%) __________ Q4 '12 __________ Q4 '13 __________ Change Y/Y

1. Samsung _________________________________________ 29.5% __________ 29.6% ___________ 0.2%

2. Vizio ____________________________________________ 22.8% __________ 24.4% ____________ 1.7%

3. Sony ____________________________________________ 20.9% _________ 17.6% ____________ -3.3%

4. LG _______________________________________________ 7.9% _________ 13.0% ____________ 5.1%

5. Panasonic _________________________________________7.9% __________ 6.9% _____________-1.0%

_ Others __________________________________________ 11.1% ___________ 8.5% ____________ -2.6%


Source: Strategy Analytics, Connected Home Devices Service


It will be interesting to see how this year unfolds - Vizio is poised to challenge Samsung for the top spot and LG gives every indication of challenging Sony for the #3 position.

Sharp and Toshiba did not even make the top-5 list, meaning that they shared the remaining 8.5% with the rebadged Chinese smart TVs...

The data I copied above is for United States Smart TVs only, which nearly doubled in terms of a percentage of all flat panel TV sales from Q4'12 to Q4'13 and constituted close to 1 out of every two flat panel TVs sold in Q4'13.

There is other data at the link for overall United States Flat Panel TV Sales, the key difference being that LG has already leapfrogged Sony and Panasonic and was already in the #3 position in Q4'12, and Sony actually improved from the #5 position in Q4'12 to the #4 position in Q4'13 by actually gaining 1% in market share of overall United States Flatpanel TV sales and exchanging positions with Panasonic, which lost 2.1% in market share over the same period...

Samsung and Vizio combined had 52.3% of United States Smart TV sales in Q4'12, growing to 54% in Q4'13, and those two vendors combined had 40.2% of all United States TV sales in Q4'12, growing to 44.5% n Q4'13.

I will be interesting to see how Vizio's strategy to focus on FALD compared to Samsung's strategy to focus on curved TVs ends up impacting these numbers in Q4 of 2014...

Anyway, on the topic of this thread, things don't look to good for Sony - it appears that they only gained market share in the United States at the expense of Panasonics abandoning plasma, it looks like even in the Smart TV subsegment they are about to be passed by LG, and it is hard to see how their announced MSRP of $8000 on the 65" X950B is going to drive a significant volume of unit sales this year (even if it is a fantastic TV)...
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post #100 of 144 Old 03-12-2014, 07:44 PM
 
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Those award-winning plasmas from Panasonic did nothing to stop the bleeding. Sad.
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post #101 of 144 Old 03-12-2014, 09:17 PM
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Those award-winning plasmas from Panasonic did nothing to stop the bleeding. Sad.

Fantastic execution but very poor timing - if 4K didn't materialize for another few years, the course of history could have been different, but the fact that Panasonic reached the pinnacle of plasma the same year the entire market began a significant shift from 1080p towards 4K meant the writing was on the wall...
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post #102 of 144 Old 03-12-2014, 09:47 PM
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Not to mention that Panasonic did absolutely nothing to promote their product. Every reviewer, every magazine,every web site, every calibrator went out of their way to proclaim the greatness of the latest batch of plasma TV's from Panasonic. Yet Panasonic spent next to nothing to advertise their product and let the public in on what they apparently wanted to keep a secret. It worked.
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post #103 of 144 Old 03-12-2014, 10:16 PM
 
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Not sure it would have helped. Pioneer took out ads on TV for the final Kuro for all the good it did (yea, beginning of the economic downturn, more premium priced, et al).
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post #104 of 144 Old 03-14-2014, 03:12 AM
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The Vizio stats are interesting, because they are not a presence at all in this country (UK).
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post #105 of 144 Old 03-14-2014, 10:27 AM
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The Vizio stats are interesting, because they are not a presence at all in this country (UK).
In a way I agree with you Vinnie but times have changed a lot since Pioneer tried to advertise the Kuro. The biggest difference is the wide price range Panasonic offered along with stunningly superior performance at the low end. Pioneer had only the range Sears referred to as BEST while Panasonic offered GOOD,BETTER,BEST in the 3D Smart configuration. That marketing approach worked very well for Sears. Plus Panasonic's prices were at or below the competitions LED/LCD similar offerings. I just think that Panasonic failed to take advantage of the tremendous free publicity right in front of them. TV, Newspapers, Magazines (a little there) and most importantly the internet.
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post #106 of 144 Old 03-14-2014, 11:10 AM
 
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Yes, they likely grasped defeat from the jaws of victory by not being a little more aggressive with advertisement. I am not so sure any increased sales coming from such a campaign for even the last 2 years would have turned it around for them, however.
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post #107 of 144 Old 03-15-2014, 05:01 AM
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I can only remember seeing one advert for Panasonic TVs. It was on around the time of the Olympics and was all about smart features. If you said they do not advertise here, you'd be very nearly correct. To this date I have never seen a Pioneer advert.

I guess they must be relying on the stores to do their promotional work for them. That would save some marketing money, but there is the risk that the stores will not present the product/brand in the best way. After all, they will have their own objectives.

If TV companies had wanted to get across a PQ message to consumers, they have not put much effort in to do that. In addition, there are a whole lot of other issues. E.g., I simply cannot understand why they choose names like TX-P60ZT65B and XBR55X900A for their TVs. If these companies can't even come up with simple memorable names for their products, you have to wonder how competent they are at marketing.
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post #108 of 144 Old 03-15-2014, 07:08 AM
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There was actually a Kuro 500 ad poster. I saw one in my city so there must have been thousands of them..


According The Korean Observer Sony sells the most 4K TVs in the world _18.2%
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post #109 of 144 Old 05-22-2014, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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But he (Hirai) has repeatedly shrugged off pleas to abandon the ailing televion unit, which he (Hirai) insists remains central to Sony's core business.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/international/sony-execs-lose-bonuses/1104052.html
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Panasonic also officially engaged in denials up until about 5 months before quitting time.
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post #112 of 144 Old 05-22-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 
Panasonic also officially engaged in denials up until about 5 months before quitting time.
You know that was Plasma TV related and not their TV business as a whole. I posted that because it shows that Hirai has a ''over my dead body'' approach. So when Sony sells their TV division he might quit.
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post #113 of 144 Old 05-22-2014, 04:48 PM
 
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Fair nuff, they (Panasonic) do seem to be giving it one last Hail Mary pass in the LCD dept, so completely divesting of one's display division is an admittedly more monumental event.
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post #114 of 144 Old 05-22-2014, 07:03 PM
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My last Sony TV was a 27" Trinitron. The company seems to have lost all of it's desire to innovate. They missed the boat on OLED.

In 2000 there were four television technologies competing for the transition to HD TV - rear projection, CRT, plasma and LCD. Sony bet on CRT and rear projection, Panasonic on plasma, while the market chose LCD. Sony was forced to play catch up with the market and never really caught up while Panasonic futilely tried to shift the market their way. Panasonic's LCD technology showed great promise but I can remember them limiting it it to 37" so it wouldn't cut plasma division sales!

What do you call a plasma television that costs more, has more image retention, more burn-in, uneven panel wear and a short panel life? An OLED. wink.gif
OLED would require huge investment and superior picture quality doesn't do much to drive sales.

If Sony dropped out at least that might boost Panasonic's market share enough for them to stay in the business.
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post #115 of 144 Old 05-22-2014, 11:01 PM
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Panasonic makes no panels of any kind at this point. Sony dropping out does very little / nothing for them.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #116 of 144 Old 05-23-2014, 05:57 AM
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Panasonic makes no panels of any kind at this point. Sony dropping out does very little / nothing for them.

 

You come back to this similar point.  When you refer to Sony (and in this case Panasonic) not making panels, do you mean actually owning the factories outright?  Because outsourcing the manufacturing of components is a common production model....why discount that?  And besides, despite what might have been going on by Sony prior to and including 2009, at the end of that year the newly created "Sharp Display Products Corporation" itself was a JV between Sony and Sharp.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #117 of 144 Old 05-23-2014, 06:45 AM
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Whether a company has 5% or 50% of the television market they have fixed base costs to operate in the market. Increased market share means an increased chance of profitability.
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post #118 of 144 Old 05-23-2014, 10:55 PM
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Panasonic makes no panels of any kind at this point. Sony dropping out does very little / nothing for them.
Are they just buying all their LCD panels from LG now? I know that they purchased the larger sizes (42" and up) from LG, but I was under the impression that the 32" set I purchased recently was still using IPS Alpha - but perhaps they just consider that a branding rather than a panel type now?
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You come back to this similar point. When you refer to Sony (and in this case Panasonic) not making panels, do you mean actually owning the factories outright? Because outsourcing the manufacturing of components is a common production model....why discount that? And besides, despite what might have been going on by Sony prior to and including 2009, at the end of that year the newly created "Sharp Display Products Corporation" itself was a JV between Sony and Sharp.
Don't forget that this partnership was ended when Sharp was unable to produce panels in enough volume for Sony - they had to release a mid-cycle refresh of some of their displays (HX700 replaced with HX750) using AUO panels instead.
Previously, there was a joint venture between Sony and Samsung, S-LCD, which was a similar partnership.
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post #119 of 144 Old 05-24-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

You come back to this similar point. When you refer to Sony (and in this case Panasonic) not making panels, do you mean actually owning the factories outright? Because outsourcing the manufacturing of components is a common production model....why discount that? And besides, despite what might have been going on by Sony prior to and including 2009, at the end of that year the newly created "Sharp Display Products Corporation" itself was a JV between Sony and Sharp.
Don't forget that this partnership was ended when Sharp was unable to produce panels in enough volume for Sony - they had to release a mid-cycle refresh of some of their displays (HX700 replaced with HX750) using AUO panels instead.
Previously, there was a joint venture between Sony and Samsung, S-LCD, which was a similar partnership.

 

Understood, but a comment from Rogo elsewhere (that I'm trying to understand) stated that Sony never made any of their panels.  I'm not sure that this is a valid criteria for whether or not they can develop a new technology and job that technology out.  Outsourcing manufacturing (not rebranding) isn't unheard of, and makes a lot of sense.  In the case of joint ventures, there's a partial ownership involved, not mere contracting.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #120 of 144 Old 05-24-2014, 11:47 PM
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Sony may have temporarily bought into the mfg. of panels from other vendors (e.g. they temporarily own a portion of Samsung's production via S-LCD). They never built any of that production and don't currently own any production.

They have no relevant expertise in making panels at all, outside of the tiny production of broadcast panels they are involved in.

When we talk about LG upgrading a fab / retrofitting it to make OLED, we are taking a giant, volume LCD maker. They know about panel making.

Sony? No.

And, for what it's worth, Sony isn't alone here.

But it's important to understand this: No one has made money being a volume TV seller w/o also making panels. No one other than Vizio, which succeeds because of key factors (1) huge volume (2) eking out tiny margins on huge volume (3) cutting out most of a tier in the distribution chain.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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