LG 55EA9800 OLED TV: A Brief Critical Look - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-24-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bigcoupe2003 View Postfrom a very reliable source close to me I have heard the msrp on the LG 77 inch OLED will be priced at $25K

Yes, at that price I would rather buy a 4K projector

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Old 03-24-2014, 04:13 PM
 
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deleted, wrong thread
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Old 03-24-2014, 04:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigcoupe2003 View Post

from a very reliable source close to me I have heard the msrp on the LG 77 inch OLED will be priced at $25K

Looks like we may have the same friend. I also received an email inviting me to there 3/29 Hi-Res audio, OLED and 4K theater party.

Snur
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:00 PM
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Looks like we may have the same friend. I also received an email inviting me to there 3/29 Hi-Res audio, OLED and 4K theater party.

My memory is fuzzy. I thought the $25K price was the CES expected price. Was it really $30K at CES and this seems like a "bargain"?

Regardless, we're only about 70% worth of price cuts from what I'd say is the holy grail of TVs.... Oh, and it also needs to be offered in "flat" or at least "flattenable".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

Looks like we may have the same friend. I also received an email inviting me to there 3/29 Hi-Res audio, OLED and 4K theater party.

My memory is fuzzy. I thought the $25K price was the CES expected price. Was it really $30K at CES and this seems like a "bargain"?

Regardless, we're only about 70% worth of price cuts from what I'd say is the holy grail of TVs.... Oh, and it also needs to be offered in "flat" or at least "flattenable".

So the holy grail of TV would be a flat 77" OLED priced at $7500?

And what does that mean for 'holy grail' pricing of a 65" OLED? $6000?
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

My memory is fuzzy. I thought the $25K price was the CES expected price. Was it really $30K at CES and this seems like a "bargain"?

Regardless, we're only about 70% worth of price cuts from what I'd say is the holy grail of TVs.... Oh, and it also needs to be offered in "flat" or at least "flattenable".

Engadget reported $30,000 from CES.

Something I have been meaning to ask you, do you know whether panels are cut perpendicular to each other on a substrate? What I mean by that is that you can only fit two 77" panels onto a 2200x2500mm substrate, but there is enough room left along the edge for a single 55" panel. So you'd have the two 77" panels stacked on top of each other with another 55" panel lying on its side, perpendicular to the first two televisions.

I assume that they try and use as much of the substrate as possible, but I havent been able to find any info along these lines.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:27 PM
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ If there is 50% margin like the 84LM9600 LG, we will be in business smile.gif

Yes retailers love cables and speakers as the margins go from 50 to 100 points or more wink.gif

Same with high price tickets, I was just looking at how much I paid my first Pioneer Elite Plasma $12,000 eek.gif

Never again!
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Engadget reported $30,000 from CES.

So I had my own number... Separate from Engadget (and from sources at LG). I just don't remember what it was or whether I reported it here. I just thought it was maybe $25K. But it's possible it wasn't.
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Something I have been meaning to ask you, do you know whether panels are cut perpendicular to each other on a substrate? What I mean by that is that you can only fit two 77" panels onto a 2200x2500mm substrate, but there is enough room left along the edge for a single 55" panel. So you'd have the two 77" panels stacked on top of each other with another 55" panel lying on its side, perpendicular to the first two televisions.

I assume that they try and use as much of the substrate as possible, but I havent been able to find any info along these lines.

You absolutely can do it. It's challenging from a work-flow perspective and the question is whether it's worth it for something as immature as the OLED processes. (It appears on many LCD lines, it's not done because it would slow throughput, which is the most valuable thing*).

Think about it this way... You have two choices, both imperfect....

1) You do all the work for the different size panels on the pieces separate because the "photo" stages can't be done simultaneously. So you are basically doing color filters, transistors, etc. on smaller partial substrates and you have to be mixing and matching.

OR

2) You leave part of the sheet un-patterned and cut it off and just recycle the glass. You are cutting your utilization by the area of the unused portion of the sheet, which can be quite high, but you keep all the processes consistent for one panel size.

My guess is they are doing #2 and that's partly why the pricing will not come close to scaling linearly with size.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

LG's larger OLED TV prices were announced on Blu-ray.com. I can't find it at this moment as I'm rushing out, but I think it was in the New Display Technologies section.

Here is the link:

Robert Zohn:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=8944509#post8944509
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Regardless, we're only about 70% worth of price cuts from what I'd say is the holy grail of TVs.... Oh, and it also needs to be offered in "flat" or at least "flattenable".

 

I'm sorry, but the engineering side of me freaks out at the addition of moving components to a device that should otherwise be almost entirely solid state (except for the occasional physical relay).  Seriously, it's only asking for trouble, and I have no interest in a display that can move and contort itself.  Particularly for a device that has to maintain extraordinary precision between millions of dinky emitters.....Oye.

 

Note: if it's the only way to get flat, then of course I'll take it.  Probably disable the servo.....

 

But further, psychologically I just don't want to be bothered with even having the choice of changing the curve.  I'd always be wondering: should I try it this time?  I like to set up a TV, leave it, and be content that my biggest worry is turning it on and changing channels (or the horror of walking to the BDP, pressing a button, getting out a BD, putting it in, etc....)


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Old 03-25-2014, 07:53 AM
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Well Hopefully the LG 77" will street for $15K or less wink.gif

Do you know if LG warranty is only good for US, if bought in the US, or does it cover Canada as well? Do Canada and US get different serial numbers? or would it be impossible to tell where the TV was bought by the serial number? I doubt that Canadian prices are gonna be very good here. Seems like the 55" model still has a way higher price then what you can get them for in the US.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:48 AM
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warranty applies, you just have to bring into the us for service. If you buy an extended warranty from MACK you could have in home service in Canada wink.gif
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:21 AM
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Well Hopefully the LG 77" will street for $15K or less wink.gif

You've said this a few times and it seems LG has at least suggested what their pricing will be to some dealers by now so I'm wondering if "hopefully" means you have reason to believe that's what it will be selling for or if it really is hope? It would be telling for future pricing of other models as well if it were the case.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Well Hopefully the LG 77" will street for $15K or less wink.gif

You've said this a few times and it seems LG has at least suggested what their pricing will be to some dealers by now so I'm wondering if "hopefully" means you have reason to believe that's what it will be selling for or if it really is hope? It would be telling for future pricing of other models as well if it were the case.

 

CP: are you under an NDA to neither confirm nor deny?....hmmmm????   LOL...


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Old 03-25-2014, 11:58 AM
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They have a model number and it will be selling in Korea at least :)

 

http://www.lge.co.kr/lgekr/search_lge/searchMain.jsp?kwd=OLED

 

 

Amazing Picture Quality

LG's new 55-, 65- and 77-inch class ULTRA HD CURVED OLED TVs combine LG's proprietary WRGB OLED technology and 4K Ultra HD* screen resolution (3840 x 2160 pixels) for a whole new level of picture quality and viewer immersion. Filling the viewer's field of vision with gorgeous, high-contrast images, the 77EC9800's sensually curved screen is supported by a beautiful leaf-shaped stand. A standout product, the company's mammoth 77-inch class model is the recipient of the highly-prized CES 2014 "Best of Innovations" award.

 

The color temperature of each pixel on the enormous 77-inch class display is automatically controlled by the LG Color Refiner, resulting in superior consistency and balance. The TV's contrast ratio is adeptly managed by the company's High Dynamic Range (HDR) algorithm. The striking ULTRA HD CURVED OLED TV also boasts the eye-popping visuals of ULTRA CINEMA 3D. Thanks to film-type patterned retarder (FPR) technology and Ultra HD resolution, viewers will marvel at convincing 3D effects.

 

For more high resolution viewing options, the 77EC9800 has been equipped with LG's own Tru-ULTRA HD Engine Pro, which can upscale SD, HD or Full HD content into breathtaking near-4K picture quality. The results are rendered even more seamless due to the error-correction capabilities of the enhanced super resolution algorithm to help prevent blurred image from the upscaling process. The TV also incorporates Motion Estimation Motion Compensation (MEMC) to make the onscreen action appear smoother, clearer and more realistic.

 

LG's ULTRA HD CURVED OLED TVs also have HDMI 2.0 capability and decoding for both H.264 and HEVC H.265 formats, at 30 or 60 frames per second. A convenient built-in decoder makes it possible to display Ultra HD content from external devices connected via the TV's HDMI, USB or LAN ports.

 

The 77EC9800 series also will incorporate LG's latest smart TV platform, enabling consumers to enjoy a refreshingly simple and intuitive user experience.

 

=============

 

The 77EC9800 is a 77-inch OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diode ) with a resolution of 3,840x2,160 pixels, which has four times as many pixels as high-definition. One of the advantages of 4K is that you can sit closer than you can at a 1080p and not see pixel structure -- making this similar to the effect given by an Apple Retina Display, and particularly handy for larger screen sizes.

 

The EC9800 joins the smaller 55-inch 55EC9700 and the 65-inch 65EC9700 as part of three OLEDs in LG's 12-model-strong 4K lineup for CES .

 

The company exhibited a prototype of this television at the CES Ultra HD Conference, and while it was impressive, there were some unexplained problems with image quality, but we'd expect this would be rectified for the final model. The LG features a curved screen, which is quite glossy and based on our hands-on time with the prototype it was only moderately successful at reducing reflections.

 

LG's new high-end TVs, including the EC9800, also feature an upgraded Motion Remote. Though most specifications are still undisclosed, the company has confirmed that the EC9800 will include HDMI 2.0 and HEVC decoding.

 

LG-105UB9.jpg
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:50 PM
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That is a terrible design.

 

 

Edit: When I google the model number I get this:

 

Hopefully that is more like it... Still not a fan of the fat bezel at the bottom though


LG 55EA970 OLED
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:23 PM
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One post up: I don't like the fat bottom bezel.

 

Two posts up: that is one horrendously ugly design.  Immediate veto in my house.

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Old 03-25-2014, 04:48 PM
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One post up: I don't like the fat bottom bezel.

Two posts up: that is one horrendously ugly design.  Immediate veto in my house.

Absolutely agree. Ugly designs.

I really like the 2012 CES demo:




Minimalistic slim bezel.
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Old 03-25-2014, 05:24 PM
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Absolutely agree. Ugly designs.

I really like the 2012 CES demo:




Minimalistic slim bezel.

Yes these look best biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:12 AM
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I'm sorry, but the engineering side of me freaks out at the addition of moving components to a device that should otherwise be almost entirely solid state (except for the occasional physical relay).  Seriously, it's only asking for trouble, and I have no interest in a display that can move and contort itself.  Particularly for a device that has to maintain extraordinary precision between millions of dinky emitters.....Oye.

Note: if it's the only way to get flat, then of course I'll take it.  Probably disable the servo.....

But further, psychologically I just don't want to be bothered with even having the choice of changing the curve.  I'd always be wondering: should I try it this time?  I like to set up a TV, leave it, and be content that my biggest worry is turning it on and changing channels (or the horror of walking to the BDP, pressing a button, getting out a BD, putting it in, etc....)

I should have clarified...

If I owned one of these, I'd set it up flat... I'd never, ever, ever curve it. Period.

If there was a way to disable it from being curved, I'd do that. Period.

I just was willing to tolerate a display that could be curved -- so long as it also did flat.

What I won't tolerate is a display that is only curved. Only flat is fine by me.

I suspect the TV I want is coming in 2017. I doubt it's coming soon. That's fine by me. We are donating both of our old TVs this year (we hadn't gotten around to it after we replaced the plasma in 2012 and we only replaced the LCD at the very very end of 2013). In 2017, the plasma will be 5 years old.. Seems like a great time to replace that one and find it a good home....

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:00 AM
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Well Hopefully the LG 77" will street for $15K or less wink.gif

That should be doable if LG is willing to accept the same profit margin as on the 55". Previous posts have said the 8th gen sheets can produce 6 55" TVs. Other posts have said that the same sheet can be cut to make 2 77" Tvs with left over recycled. Assume LG is satisfied with $ 5000 street price for 4k 55" = $30, 000 gross revenue per sheet. Two 77" TVs at $15,000 each provides the same gross revenue and probably a higher net profit due to having to provide only 2 sets of video/audio processing hardware as compared to 6 sets for the 55".
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:57 AM
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No waste needed, I can make 110" OLED work, no curve though please, funny thing is, the unit would probably weight under 150 pounds.......
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:55 AM
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That should be doable if LG is willing to accept the same profit margin as on the 55". Previous posts have said the 8th gen sheets can produce 6 55" TVs. Other posts have said that the same sheet can be cut to make 2 77" Tvs with left over recycled. Assume LG is satisfied with $ 5000 street price for 4k 55" = $30, 000 gross revenue per sheet. Two 77" TVs at $15,000 each provides the same gross revenue and probably a higher net profit due to having to provide only 2 sets of video/audio processing hardware as compared to 6 sets for the 55".

Other things to consider are yield, 4K and sheet usage. If there is one defect on a sheet it would likely make 1 of 6 55" TVs go bad for an 83% yield but make 1 of 2 77" TVs go bad for a 50% yield. If the yield were 80% for 55" sets and 60% for 77" sets then the price ratio would need to be 4 to 1. My guess is when not making 55" sets they will use one sheet to make one 77" and two 65" sets so the 4 to 1 price ratio might be somewhat lower. To compare equal sets, one would need to compare the 77" 4K price to the 55" 4K price which will be higher than the 1080p price.

A couple other posts recently have talked about printing and whether LG can build an OLED TV market on its own with the example being Panasonic plasma.

On printing, when it is ready which as was posted will be several years away, they likely won't have the same specs as vacuum processed sets. The materials available for printing currently have shorter lifetimes and lower efficiency. That may change in a few years, of course. But for now the prospect for printing is a lower priced set but with a lower performance.

As far as I know Panasonic plasma sets were only sold under the Panasonic brand. A big difference here is LG is planning on selling OLED panels to a number of other set makers. A year or so from now a consumer may walk into Best Buy and ask why Samsung is the only company that doesn't have an OLED TV. The OLED panels will all come from LG but the consumer will just see the brand name on the set. Some OLED sets (probably Chinese) will compete on price while others may compete on motion by using BFI or some other technique and still others may tout another feature. And, yes, LG is planning a marketing campaign.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:05 PM
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LG selling panels under other brands doesn't mean that more than one company would be building the market. If anything, it makes it more complex.

Your comments on yield make a lot of sense, however. I suspect somewhere around 4x is what we're going to see, although some compression of the ratio will come in time.

As for printing, I think it's unwise to say that TVs built in 2016-17 will have lower lifetime and performance if they are printed. That's so far from now, I think there's plenty of time for things to change. Never mind the fact that the very nature of how printing works on equipment like Kateeva's should actually improve lifetimes... And there remains time for someone else to come up with a solution for solution-based OLEDs that's better still. LG's method will, on the other hand, be improved only incrementally from here.

There's a ton of reason to be skeptical that LG can make a market for OLED TVs on its own. It has a lousy track record, let's be honest. It also has a unique technological edge here, a commitment to do this, a sword fight with its home-country rival it could actually win, and a lot of runway.

So much is riding on the 8G fab. If it's on-time-ish and productive/high-yielding, a lot can begin to happen. If it more or less fails, the dream probably dies with it.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:35 PM
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Other things to consider are yield, 4K and sheet usage. If there is one defect on a sheet it would likely make 1 of 6 55" TVs go bad for an 83% yield but make 1 of 2 77" TVs go bad for a 50% yield. If the yield were 80% for 55" sets and 60% for 77" sets then the price ratio would need to be 4 to 1. My guess is when not making 55" sets they will use one sheet to make one 77" and two 65" sets so the 4 to 1 price ratio might be somewhat lower. To compare equal sets, one would need to compare the 77" 4K price to the 55" 4K price which will be higher than the 1080p price.

I dont think the economics are quite that bad. Six 55" panels cover 90% of a Gen 8 substrate versus only 60% for two 77" panels. So a single defect that knocks out a 55" panel would only have a 40% chance of impacting one of the 77" panels. That number drops dramatically if I can choose where to place the panels after I have figured out where the defects are located. Moreover, if I can choose what panel sizes to cut after seeing the locations of the defects, the economics change for the better again. If you know that a single 55" panel has failed, then your decision might be whether to build 2 77" panels (or 2 65") or five 55" panels. The ratio would drop to 2.5 to 1.

Unfortunately, I dont know nearly enough about LCD/OLED processing to know exactly how this works in practice. If anybody has any links or book recommendations, it would be much appreciated.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:57 PM
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I'd rather not speculate about how they're doing the OLEDs, except to say that it's actually a unique process in display. For that reason, they are quite likely doing things differently from LCD. For example, it's very possible that they are doing the OLED material vapor deposition and have some flexibility to use different portions of the substrate if certain areas go terribly wrong. That would not likely be a highly scalable choice going forward, but it's also likely that eventually the vapor depo will be a near 100% process.

Keep in mind that once the transistors are patterned, the panels have been (a) located and (b) sized. You can't make any changes once the backplane is part of the panel because the pixel sizes are not consistent and you can't move the borders anyway.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:54 AM
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I dont think the economics are quite that bad. Six 55" panels cover 90% of a Gen 8 substrate versus only 60% for two 77" panels. So a single defect that knocks out a 55" panel would only have a 40% chance of impacting one of the 77" panels. That number drops dramatically if I can choose where to place the panels after I have figured out where the defects are located. Moreover, if I can choose what panel sizes to cut after seeing the locations of the defects, the economics change for the better again. If you know that a single 55" panel has failed, then your decision might be whether to build 2 77" panels (or 2 65") or five 55" panels. The ratio would drop to 2.5 to 1.

Unfortunately, I dont know nearly enough about LCD/OLED processing to know exactly how this works in practice. If anybody has any links or book recommendations, it would be much appreciated.

They'll follow the same model as the photolithography model in computer processors. Intel makes all processors for their highest clock rate. The ones that can't clock at the highest speed are used in their next model down and so on. Same thing with video cards. Some have the full amount of stream units, the less expensive ones have some disabled.

LG will try to only make 77" panels. The ones that can't be used will be used in the next smallest size and so on.
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

I dont think the economics are quite that bad. Six 55" panels cover 90% of a Gen 8 substrate versus only 60% for two 77" panels. So a single defect that knocks out a 55" panel would only have a 40% chance of impacting one of the 77" panels. That number drops dramatically if I can choose where to place the panels after I have figured out where the defects are located. Moreover, if I can choose what panel sizes to cut after seeing the locations of the defects, the economics change for the better again. If you know that a single 55" panel has failed, then your decision might be whether to build 2 77" panels (or 2 65") or five 55" panels. The ratio would drop to 2.5 to 1.

Unfortunately, I dont know nearly enough about LCD/OLED processing to know exactly how this works in practice. If anybody has any links or book recommendations, it would be much appreciated.

They'll follow the same model as the photolithography model in computer processors. Intel makes all processors for their highest clock rate. The ones that can't clock at the highest speed are used in their next model down and so on. Same thing with video cards. Some have the full amount of stream units, the less expensive ones have some disabled.

LG will try to only make 77" panels. The ones that can't be used will be used in the next smallest size and so on.

Unfortunately, I don't think it works that way.
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