Can High Contrast actually be a Negative? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 12:19 AM
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what is he talking about?

we talk about the theoretical problem of to dark details and banding issue with high contrast/unlimited and 8 bit and he talks about his random "hate" for LCD displays. sorry i can't find a connection to this topic.
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post #32 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I read the LG's do band a bit, so I would expect the Samsung to come out of black smoother.
Really? What do you base this on.
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post #33 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post
Really? What do you base this on.
The banding has been mentioned in various reviews. With some photos I believe.

I have no reference for coming out of black until someone tests it throughly. Previous reviews have said it bands at 5-10% stimulus (near black). I haven't yet seen a 1% to 5% sweep; probably have to wait for someone with a high end meter to do it.

The longer LG makes these TV's and the more of them out there someone will eventually dig into it... I don't think it's a major issue; and perhaps LG will have it fixed for the 4K TVs this year.

-SiGGy

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post #34 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
The banding has been mentioned in various reviews. With some photos I believe.
Well I understood as much. Source?
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post #35 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post
Well I understood as much. Source?
..


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/55ea9...1312083487.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVtest
Bottom-half brighter + banding at 5%-10% stimulus
..
http://www.hdfever.fr/2014/05/26/tes...v-ou-55ea970v/
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfever
Site is french; but this photo says enough on it's own. You can google translate it the site though.
http://www.hdfever.fr/wp-content/upl...66-597x370.jpg

...

http://televisions.reviewed.com/cont...ea9800-preview
Quote:
Originally Posted by TelevisionsReviewed
Unfortunately, we noticed some grainy banding in certain transitions

-SiGGy

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post #36 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 08:05 AM
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The so-called banding issue is not as serious as you put out to be. To put it mildly, it is called nitpicking. No TV is perfect. Most banding I encountered in daily viewing are from the compression artifacts that can show up on any TV.

But OP's point is invalid, IMO. Just because high contrast hurts eyes doesn't mean you have to settle for a lesser display technology. It is up to film director to decide how the content should look like and all the TV has to do is faithfully represent that intention.
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post #37 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
The so-called banding issue is not as serious as you put out to be. To put it mildly, it is called nitpicking. No TV is perfect. Most banding I encountered in daily viewing are from the compression artifacts that can show up on any TV.

But OP's point is invalid, IMO. Just because high contrast hurts eyes doesn't mean you have to settle for a lesser display technology. It is up to film director to decide how the content should look like and all the TV has to do is faithfully represent that intention.
When did I ever say it was serious? Please quote.

If you actually read my posts I always say no TV is perfect; but this doesn't mean you can't discuss their imperfections. This is an A/V board you know?

Mentioning the banding is pointing out it's a 8bit display not a 10bit. It's a 1st generation product, and to boot it's competition from Samsung did not do this. Which I also mentioned.

The OP was discussing how the 1st step out of black with only 8 bits of resolution is a big step. I was pointing out the banding because it could lead to the TV coming out of black faster on that 1st step depending on the APL/content and ABL interaction. Which is part of the contrast discussion that you seemingly missed.

Outside of the possibility of it "stepping out of black" it's visible in general with dark shades. This is the banding on the LG OLED.

The "so-called" banding this is viewing a BR; which the source has no banding.



I don't think you can discredit the OP post. I don't like the title myself as it's misleading; but his point is valid. I have not been able to find a peer reviewed published study which shows large sized light sources near 30fL peak white and their effect on dark viewing. I found many other studies but they all focused on night viewing using your *rods* not cones.

-SiGGy

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post #38 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
When did I ever say it was serious? Please quote.

If you actually read my posts I always say no TV is perfect; but this doesn't mean you can't discuss their imperfections. This is an A/V board you know?

Yes, This is AVS board and for every point should expect a counter-point. Who says one can't discuss imperfections? Please quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Mentioning the banding is pointing out it's a 8bit display not a 10bit. It's a 1st generation product, and to boot it's competition from Samsung did not do this. Which I also mentioned.
But you didn't provide any source for Samsung.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
The OP was discussing how the 1st step out of black with only 8 bits of resolution is a big step. I was pointing out the banding because it could lead to the TV coming out of black faster on that 1st step depending on the APL/content and ABL interaction. Which is part of the contrast discussion that you seemingly missed.

No, I didn't mess anything. But OP claims that high contrast hurts eyes (as thread title indicates) and therefore one should look for less contrasty TVs instead of pursue absolute best contrast possible. That's bull. The rest is simply off topic.
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post #39 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Yes, This is AVS board and for every point should expect a counter-point. Who says one can't discuss imperfections? Please quote.
But you didn't provide any source for Samsung.
Source of what? And why? There are no reports of banding on the Samsung panels. I also remember reading somewhere they were 10bit which probably explains why there is none.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121
No, I didn't mess anything. But OP claims that high contrast hurts eyes (as thread title indicates) and therefore one should look for less contrasty TVs instead of pursue absolute best contrast possible. That's bull. The rest is simply off topic.
Yes I agree with you in it's simplest form. But I think he is on to something which is why I jumped in.

There is a limit somewhere of TV size and peak brightness which will hamper your eyes ability to disconcert dark shades (outside of the trick he showed). I'm speaking chemically in your eye. There are no peer reviewed studies on this that I could find. I found plenty of studies showing night vision statistics after time was allowed (30m) for eyes to adjust in the dark. This adjustment time allows your rods to recharge fully to give us night vision. However we would be discussing your cones ability not rods and we need to factor in the TV size and brightness at viewing distance. The 1,000,000:1 ratio people are claiming is the *dynamic* range of your eyes; this includes the sensitivity of your rods for night vision. Thus this ratio does not apply for TV viewing. From what I can see the real number is somewhere between 1,000:1 and 10,000:1 using your cones only.

-SiGGy
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post #40 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually I have touched 3 separate "High Contrast" issues.

1. Too much contrast hurt my eyes when night watching.
To make myself more comfortable, I (dare I say it on AVS Forums) LOWER contrast using the contrast slider on me TV or PC.


2. Too much display contrast can render the shadow detail invisible due to our eyes limitations.
This happens because all home videos, internet, etc... where mastered for a typical 8-bit 1000:1 display,
but when they are watched on an OLED display steps 1 to 10 can be to dark to see anything if the OLED display calibrated to perfect power curve.

Note that no one confirmed yet what is the visible contrast ratio of a modern OLED TV by measuring step 1 & 255.
It can be as low as only 4000:1 if its a compensated gamma curve which is suited for most existing content,
or 50k:1 if its a true power curve in which you won't see a damn thing with current content.


3. 8-bit is definitely not enough to take advantage of infinite contrast ratio.
So we have infinite shades of darkness to play with, but only about 5 to 10 steps to distribute them on.


I'm not saying high contrast ratio is always BAD.
I'm saying that todays OLED displays have to compensate contrast to properly show current videos (including blu rays) properly, for us to still see some detail in the dark shades.
I'm also saying that there is a human eye limitation factor that lies somewhere around "few thousands":1.
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post #41 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 11:05 AM
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1. Calibrate your tv and choose appropriate movie to watch instead of staring at black and white boxes the real problem I encountered often is the tv black became dark grey on my plasma. Oled solved this problem for me.



2. Rogo answered your assumptions there. And don't base your experience with AMOLED screen on your phone as general fact for oled tvs. The two are built and tuned for different purposes. I have not seen loss of dark details which is often the case with LCD. There are many measurements about oled tv constrasts. Take a look at all the links provided in this thread.

Sent from my RM-940_nam_att_200 using Tapatalk
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post #42 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I'm saying that todays OLED displays have to compensate contrast to properly show current videos (including blu rays) properly, for us to still see some detail in the dark shades.
In case you missed it, you'd probably be interested in looking at Scott Wilkinson's "webinar" on Dolby's proposed "PQ" replacement for gamma, SMPTE Webinar: Dolby Vision PQ EOTF.
Quote:
In a PQ-based display, more values are allocated to shadow detail at all peak light levels, and the range of values allocated to typical objects and whites remains more constant as the peak brightness increases.

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post #43 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 01:25 PM
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I tried to explain this months ago and came under fire by Vegas OLED

The solution seems to be to render at a very high bit depth and use a debanding filter, why they didn't have this for plasma all these years I have no idea but there are other issues running parallel to this issue to consider, for example how do you handle the problem of losing shadow detail in ambient light? personally that has never bothered me and I prefer some light in the room always but in that same situation alot of people think it is important to use a lower gamma to "bring out" those details, I am not saying that is wrong but I always preferred to raise gamma and just recently while watching the world cup football I noticed that clipping detail which is barely visible gives a significant boost in contrast and does not hurt much of anything, especially for casual viewing.

For now the best most of us can do is take 16-235 input and interpolate to 0-255 but one day there should be better things coming, this is far more important than resolution itself because real life as we see it is not full of hard edges that call to our attention, that artificial look is one of the tricks the sales force have used to sell crap flat panels over the years and they are doubling down again with 4K, unfortunately many are easily fooled with those edge popping demos which move at a snails pace and once HFR recording becomes commonplace people will start really missing plasma.

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post #44 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Hard to tell but that looks like 5-bit, I performed a reduction and the contours match pretty closely
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post #45 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Actually I have touched 3 separate "High Contrast" issues.

1. Too much contrast hurt my eyes when night watching.
To make myself more comfortable, I (dare I say it on AVS Forums) LOWER contrast using the contrast slider on me TV or PC.

You are talking about light output/peak brightness, which is indeed manipulated by the Contrast control. I don't think anyone disagrees that too much light output can be a bad thing, but too much contrast (as in contrast ratio)? No, I don't think there is such a thing as "too much contrast" unless the display in question employs dubious techniques to achieve its contrast ratio, which can create its own issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Too much display contrast can render the shadow detail invisible due to our eyes limitations.
This happens because all home videos, internet, etc... where mastered for a typical 8-bit 1000:1 display,
but when they are watched on an OLED display steps 1 to 10 can be to dark to see anything if the OLED display calibrated to perfect power curve.
Again, too much light output can cause this. There is nothing wrong with your black levels being very low or nonexistent (black levels being much more important to contrast ratio than light output) - as long as you are not crushing detail and your gamma is appropriately set, which many ultra-high contrast displays are capable of, particularly high-end plasmas and OLEDs.
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post #46 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 04:20 PM
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When something is mastered on a 1000:1 display for an 8-bit audience they might make the decision to remove certain picture elements that would otherwise be visible, so what the end user will see when looking on his OLED is a big black void of nothing and the steps in between black and "whatever" are not rendered in a realistic fashion because they do not exist. Think about tree branches rising out of the shadows, without enough steps of gradation it will sure look impressive but not really believable, that is the importance of color depth on a high contrast display (well actually gradation is separate from color but not with RGB matrix)
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post #47 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 06:43 PM
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None of that has anything to do with contrast ratio being "too high".


The fact is, all else being equal, better black levels (and thus contrast ratio) always contribute to a better picture when viewed in a proper environment. Light output is much more about personal preference/comfort.
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post #48 of 89 Old 07-08-2014, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Beyond a certain CR, your eyes will not be able to discerne shadow detail no matter what your source of information.
You can easily test is with some movies and the simple test image in the first post.

I can post some pictures to prove the point even better.
You can post 10,000 pictures. Not one of them will prove that 1000:1 contrast is the limit of the human eye, because it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post
You are talking about light output/peak brightness, which is indeed manipulated by the Contrast control. I don't think anyone disagrees that too much light output can be a bad thing, but too much contrast (as in contrast ratio)? No, I don't think there is such a thing as "too much contrast" unless the display in question employs dubious techniques to achieve its contrast ratio, which can create its own issues.
This is pretty much spot on.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #49 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 04:05 AM
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Thanks. I had read the hdtvtest review before, but didn't notice the part about banding. Regarding the other two reviews, it's
difficult to judge from the review if the banding happens in the source or the TV.

In my viewing, I've only noticed banding due to poor grading (House of Cards) or bitrate starved sources.
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post #50 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post
Regarding the other two reviews, it's
difficult to judge from the review if the banding happens in the source or the TV.
The source is bluray in all of them...

-SiGGy
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post #51 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
The source is bluray in all of them...
Saw this in the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
That French review is not alone in their findings. Take a look at this one:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1388765934
Quote:This is one area where LG actually leaves room for improvement. While the OLED TV reproduces most color steps very nicely, our gradation tests also revealed some vertical lines, which means that not all colors are reproduced flawlessly. LG’s OLED TV still operates with 8-bit colors, so LG should move to 10-bit in future version of OLED TVs if they want to take it to the next step (and hopefully content makers will do the same). We certainly do not mean to suggest that color gradation is bad, on the contrary it is excellent, but it is not perfect yet.
Well that explains it.
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post #52 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 05:49 AM
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blu ray have banding too. but not banding like this shown in the picture. i can't believe this picture i mean they can't sell a TV with this problem and take money for it. no black is worth this much banding...

this must be an error with the camara or photoshop they simply can't take money for something like this
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post #53 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post
Saw this in the other thread:



Well that explains it.

yes, i know Glad were on the same pages now. Still not a huge issue; just mentionable since the competition appears to be 10bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Mentioning the banding is pointing out it's a 8bit display not a 10bit. It's a 1st generation product, and to boot it's competition from Samsung did not do this. Which I also mentioned.

-SiGGy
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post #54 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
blu ray have banding too. but not banding like this shown in the picture. i can't believe this picture i mean they can't sell a TV with this problem and take money for it. no black is worth this much banding...

this must be an error with the camara or photoshop they simply can't take money for something like this
Ya, I had the same feelings at 1st. However it's not photoshop or camera limitation. I thought maybe the BR player is in the wrong output mode and the TV's processing is choking. Doubtful though.

Until someone else tries the same segment I'll have to believe that video just exacerbates the limitation of the TV. Lots of complex dark gradients and complex colors.

-SiGGy

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post #55 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 06:16 AM
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In many plasmas if you do not turn contrast to 100% you lose some gradients in the final output, I wonder if it is the same with LG OLED
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post #56 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
In many plasmas if you do not turn contrast to 100% you lose some gradients in the final output, I wonder if it is the same with LG OLED
ya, thats anther possibility. Quite possible it's just some tweaks to the settings; someone will have to find this same segment and see if it reproduces on their set.

However, with just about every professional review mentioning the banding it it's hard to imagine they all got it wrong. But it's quite possible if the set is tweaked wrong it could get worse and exacerbate the issue since it is a 8bit display.

-SiGGy

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post #57 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
The "so-called" banding this is viewing a BR; which the source has no banding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
blu ray have banding too. but not banding like this shown in the picture. i can't believe this picture i mean they can't sell a TV with this problem and take money for it. no black is worth this much banding...
Plenty of Blu-rays have banding to this degree encoded on the disc. It's why many players - and even some displays - have debanding functions built into them.
There is every possibility that it's the display at fault too - but that would not be a result of high contrast, it would be a result of LG's crap image processing.
Just because they can build an OLED display which costs a lot, does not mean that they can build a high-end display. Sharp and Toshiba's LCDs have been notorious for this sort of problem too.
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post #58 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 08:53 AM
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i know banding issue existing but have a look at the picture again i never saw banding issue like this. not even my very old and very cheap pc lcd has any issue like this. i saw a lot of banding on disk but nothing comes close to this nothing at all.
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post #59 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 08:56 AM
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a while ago I made some images to reveal banding on my displays, let me know if these work for you


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post #60 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 09:13 AM
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i see banding in all of them but that normal you have created picture with banding (a lot less then the picture posted btw.)

to test your Tv for banding you need to create picture like this in high bit deep and dither them down to 8 bit and them present them presenting banding on a TV to see if it is banding is not the right way.

here a light debanded version of red and them dithered most of it is gone so yeah you should see banding in these picture no matter what.
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