Value Electronics 2014 Flat-Panel Shootout Live Stream - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post
Joe Kane was awesome! A true wealth of video knowledge and expertise and the fact he was correct about the sample/hold non-issue with the LG OLED and using the camera speed to prove it as the camera functions as a retina in proving his point - the old gentleman was wrong - the mind/brain controls the eyes not the other way around as they couldn't work without the brain/mind.

It's physics and anatomy not measurements from a tool in a ISF Kit. Joe Kane wins his argument IMO - hands down.

Kind of pissed me off that D-Nice just couldn't let another year go by without his plasma bias and arrogance and denial of anything better than his 5 puny Kuro's and how he talked down to the Engineering Pro's and if he as a TECH knows better than the CREATORS of the TECH.

Though Robert Zohn has joined the game understanding if he doesn't and fails to sell he has no business to operate unless there's a cemetary for plasma. Nice job in presenting all these giant panels Robert and especially Joe Kane - the True Video Guru!

I disagree with you completely here. D-Nice has a reputation as a straight shooter and he always calls it as he sees it. Kinda the bad cop sometimes but let's be real- we need someone like him (Have we already forgotten the panny black level fiasco from a couple of years back and his contribution there?). I watched the disaster Sat night where not a legitimate real question was brought up during the final Q & A (Seriously? 4K Blu Ray release dates and streaming? Don't we have press releases for those?) The fact that he called out those sets for their lack of overall PQ without dissecting and tearing each one apart was pure restraint on his part. I have a lot of respect for Robert and completely understand his role as a good cop here where he talked up their overall improvement this year (he has to sell em after all) but let's be real: some of these sets were in the $25,000- $100,000 range. I actually thought the reps got off real easy. At least I hope one of the calibrators talked down to em on a private one one one and hope they were given 'the gospel' to take back with them and share feedback with their R & D depts.

I don't know. Maybe I'm the only one who's pissed that not a single one of those uber expensive sets got any extra attention from the attending crowd or respected calibrators while plasma sets that were getting cheaper and BETTER are/ will no longer be around.
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post #272 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 02:02 AM
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Joe Kane said this clear the 4k TVs need a new connector.

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post #273 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So having returned from the shootout, a few observations on the LG OLED:

* I arrived early and was chatting with D-Nice in front of the LG. I wondered why the LG, which had no input signal, was not black, but rather a dark gray. D-Nice indicated he's seen this sporadically with both the 2013 & the 2014 models. It's not typically there, but does occasionally show up as I saw. He wasn't sure if this behavior was a form of overheating after showing high APL material or just a software glitch. He pointed it out to LG.

* When showing the Power Point slides, the ABL kicked in big time! I asked the question of the LG rep, why is the ABL so aggressive? Is it to minimize the IR since it's unlikely a power supply issue? The LG rep said it was to extend the lifespan of the set and yes, to minimize IR. Although the ABL was worse than I've seen with most plasmas with very high APL scenes (really!), I didn't see it during actual video content.

* There are apparently some color decoding or gamma issues, resulting in cyan not being displayed properly. Well, I'm used to that with my Sharp Elite. The error was very obvious with a scene of a car whose color was obviously off relative to the other displays.

So with all these issues, I obviously was turned off to the LG, right? WRONG! The LG clearly blew away, IMO, every other display there. I've seen the 2013 LG many times, but never in a dark setting. The 2014 was just gorgeous, warts and all!

I'm anxious to see the 4K OLEDs, especially after seeing the HD version.

Just a quick thought about the Samsung OLED. From my seating position (middle of the room), I was shocked at how poor the viewing angles were. Really not much better than LCD. The picture took on a significant reddish hue. In fact I asked D-Nice, who calibrated the display, why the gray scale looked so whacky. Dr. Weber told me it was the construction of the Samsung that created this off-axis issue. Viewed head on, the red push was gone.

For me this would be a deal-breaker as one of the touted advantages of OLED is viewing angles. So why give that up?

It's late here, but just wanted to share these thoughts.

I know some have been skeptical of this shootout, but I thought it was another great job by Robert and family as well as the speakers and calibrators. I also had a great talk with Joe Kane prior to the show. You won't find anyone more knowledgeable about video than Joe. We had a discussion about the wisdom and/or fear of buying a UHD TV today for fear of obsolescence tomorrow. His thoughts reaffirmed mine. More on that tomorrow if anyone is interested.

Thanks Ken! I was just curious why everyone was shy this year in bringing these relevant questions to the manufacturer reps. I was really extremely disappointed with Sat night's live streaming and therefore did not get around to tonight's version but like you I'm keeping a close eye out on the upcoming 65 inch 4K OLED to replace my current 65VT60. Grey scale uniformity and ABL issues as well as BFI Insertion for motion improvement were some of the things the online community wanted to know if the 2nd gen LG OLEDs improved on during the Q&A part of sat night's session. Sadly it didn't happen. Was this ever brought up on last night's shootout?

Are you still considering the 77 inch LG 4K Oled as your next set?

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post #274 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 02:55 AM
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Didn't get a chance to watch any of the stream, but from reading this thread I'll just say I'm relieved that I picked up a ZT60 last year. This year seems to be a bust, but it's good to hear that OLED is improving at the rate that it is. Hopefully LG keeps up and makes improvements, and maybe by next year or the year after, we'll be graced with a semi-affordable, 4K, reference-quality OLED display.

I will say that it's a bit disheartening to come to the conclusion that the best displays available this year don't perform definitively better than the $1K MSRP ST60 I got last year.
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post #275 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 04:40 AM
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@Chere : Lyris (David) wrote down the forum questions so those DID come up in the Q&A of the sunday session. Check the last few pages of this thread.
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post #276 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post
I made a similar comment: sure, it has always been a shootout to crown the best on the market, period. It's just that best on the market used to be until last year based on technology that truly produces the best picture quality and happened to be on sets that were in "normal" price ranges too - this gave the entire shootout a lot of value and relevance to most consumers as well. Since this has now changed, I also suggested that it would be better to have at least 2 categories in the shootout: a "mortal" one and a "price no object" one, simply because it gives the shootout back its relevance to the consumers while still also determining best of the best regardless of price.

Sure, I could also still afford to go out and buy any of these TV's, but I just can't justify that price tag for a TV. This was also a part of my suggestion to determine a price range that most consumers could ever justify spending on a TV, not necessarily afford. Even if I can afford it, but could never justify doing it, the TV may as well be $500K, makes no difference as no one will buy it...

I just wouldn't go as far as saying that your Sony LCD beats the F8500 (let alone by a big margin), which simply isn't true. That's a nice set from Sony, no doubt, but what does it beat the F8500 in: black levels? motion handling? screen uniformity? viewing angles? colors (which on a Sony cannot even be calibrated)? That's why the experts are reviewing these TV's to point out the things consumers like yourself don't yet know (but could hopefully learn from such reviews) to perceive and evaluate (no disrespect intended , just analyzing what you clearly exhibit with your statement). You must realize how silly it sounds that one should look at an uncalibrated demo TV (usually set on torch settings) at Best Buy instead of relying on a professional review with calibrated sets and measured results...
Why would I want to rely on someone else's opinion about what color looks best to them? In my opinion color is a very subjective thing. There may technically be a right and wrong, but just like audio it's subjective to the viewer/listener. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people vote in shootouts. One thing I've learned over the years is I don't necessarily like perfectly calibrated color. The F8500 was the most disappointing TV Ive ever bought, and I bought it solely based on expert reviews, a mistake I won't make twice. I will rely on my own opinion of what looks good for my content. My sony 65XBR850A beats the F8500 (again in my opinion) in color, brightness, resolution and features. If it didn't, I wouldn't of taken back the F8500 and paid double for the Sony.

You don't have to watch the TVs at a store in "torch mode", ask for the remote and tinker with the settings, that's what I do. It's not going to be calibrated sure, but I don't have my sets calibrated anyways and neither do probably 99% of people, so you must realize how silly it sounds to be having someone else judging sets that your going to watch using professionally calibrated settings people are unlikely to use on sets they are unlikely to be able to afford

Of course you could go a step further and bring a calibration disc with you to the store if you really wanted.
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post #277 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I understood it as thier bt.1886 was based on 2.4. This means at higher stimulus it will be 2.4. I assumed they couldn't hit those 2.4 targets.

If they post the calibration charts it will be easy to tell...
Based on calibration charts I have seen, the 9800 oled can hit the 2.4 targets
Peak brightness was also different than what was reported on the 9300
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post #278 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 05:22 AM
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I'll give you my impressions of the X950B if you are interested. I was at the shootout Saturday night, and have been to every shootout starting in 2009.

The 85X950B was capable of very dark black level. In the very good plasma level or Sharp Elite level - that kind of black even with some light on the screen so not totally shut off (of course it is locally shut off/dimmed). By far darker blacks than any other LCD there, and to my memory only the Sharp Elite LCD had comparable black levels for an LCD. But, the X950B had significant blooming around any light objects such as an "A-B" visible in the black bars of a movie they were showing (no idea what that was or how there) or even during real content such as Harry Potter Deathly Hallows scene. Totally affected the perceived contrast ratio, and took away from the great black level a lot. The Sharp Elite remains the best example of an LCD with very dark blacks and very minimal blooming. This Sony was not close to that by my memory of the Elite which I haven't seen in over a year.

Other big issue with the Sony - bad motion resolution. I thought both Sony's at the shootout were the two worst TVs with motion resolution and very similar. In the case of the 85X950B, pretty disappointing in a $25,000 TV.
I think they only resolve full res with impulse mode on, which they said it was not engaged because was too dim.
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post #279 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
Why would I want to rely on someone else's opinion about what color looks best to them? In my opinion color is a very subjective thing. There may technically be a right and wrong, but just like audio it's subjective to the viewer/listener. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people vote in shootouts. One thing I've learned over the years is I don't necessarily like perfectly calibrated color. The F8500 was the most disappointing TV Ive ever bought, and I bought it solely based on expert reviews, a mistake I won't make twice. I will rely on my own opinion of what looks good for my content. My sony 65XBR850A beats the F8500 (again in my opinion) in color, brightness, resolution and features. If it didn't, I wouldn't of taken back the F8500 and paid double for the Sony.

You don't have to watch the TVs at a store in "torch mode", ask for the remote and tinker with the settings, that's what I do. It's not going to be calibrated sure, but I don't have my sets calibrated anyways and neither do probably 99% of people, so you must realize how silly it sounds to be having someone else judging sets that your going to watch using professionally calibrated settings people are unlikely to use on sets they are unlikely to be able to afford

Of course you could go a step further and bring a calibration disc with you to the store if you really wanted.
You do bring up some good points, but you are not always able to view a TV in store the way you would like. I mostly watch TV in the dark or with very little light. Unless the TV is displayed in a dark environment, I have to rely on reviews or a store that has it displayed properly.

A perfect example is the sony experience in best buy. They really do not show off the differences between the 850b, 900b, and 950b b.c of the lighting. Get them in the dark, and the TVs are clearly very different.
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post #280 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 05:37 AM
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I don't (currently) own a KURO, but I have no plans to get rid of my Panasonic plasma. Replacing that will require a tech better than LCD.
So when OLED fails that means no more TV for you

I stumbled upon a april 2012 post of you a few days ago in which you say that according Pioneer it is normal that blacks turn red on their Plasma's.

I was under the impression that only on a small percentage of them blacks turn red. Or do you think that their blacks turn red on all their Plasma's over time ?
http://forums.hdtvtest.co.uk/index.php?topic=4897.0
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post #281 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 05:41 AM
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Noob Q: How do you feel about the 85HU8550 having the 8 zones? Any downside to this at all?
It is poor man's S9
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post #282 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
Why would I want to rely on someone else's opinion about what color looks best to them? In my opinion color is a very subjective thing. There may technically be a right and wrong, but just like audio it's subjective to the viewer/listener. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people vote in shootouts. One thing I've learned over the years is I don't necessarily like perfectly calibrated color. The F8500 was the most disappointing TV Ive ever bought, and I bought it solely based on expert reviews, a mistake I won't make twice. I will rely on my own opinion of what looks good for my content. My sony 65XBR850A beats the F8500 (again in my opinion) in color, brightness, resolution and features. If it didn't, I wouldn't of taken back the F8500 and paid double for the Sony.

You don't have to watch the TVs at a store in "torch mode", ask for the remote and tinker with the settings, that's what I do. It's not going to be calibrated sure, but I don't have my sets calibrated anyways and neither do probably 99% of people, so you must realize how silly it sounds to be having someone else judging sets that your going to watch using professionally calibrated settings people are unlikely to use on sets they are unlikely to be able to afford

Of course you could go a step further and bring a calibration disc with you to the store if you really wanted.
If you want to experience content in the manner that the content creator wants you to, you want it calibrated to a standard. You can't get there by eye or fooling around with a calibration disc. You are free to do what you want wih your set, but you are not watching the content the way the creator wants you to. The 8500 looks uperb calibrated. I wouldn't trade one for my 141 but it offers a superb picture.
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post #283 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:19 AM
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No way. Either the set was faulty or D-Nice flubbed the calibration.

From HDTVtest review:

"Our review unit had no stuck or dead pixels, and exhibited excellent uniformity without any evidence of image retention or dirty screen effect (DSE) during normal viewing. Together with the wide viewing angle (it’s as good as plasma’s) and effective anti-reflective filter, these factors contribute to a very lucid,“looking out of window” experience."
Or HDTVtest flubbed the review. OLED is known to have viewing angle issues. It was not calibration related, viewing angles never are..

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post #284 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
Why would I want to rely on someone else's opinion about what color looks best to them? In my opinion color is a very subjective thing. There may technically be a right and wrong, but just like audio it's subjective to the viewer/listener. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people vote in shootouts. One thing I've learned over the years is I don't necessarily like perfectly calibrated color. The F8500 was the most disappointing TV Ive ever bought, and I bought it solely based on expert reviews, a mistake I won't make twice. I will rely on my own opinion of what looks good for my content. My sony 65XBR850A beats the F8500 (again in my opinion) in color, brightness, resolution and features. If it didn't, I wouldn't of taken back the F8500 and paid double for the Sony.

You don't have to watch the TVs at a store in "torch mode", ask for the remote and tinker with the settings, that's what I do. It's not going to be calibrated sure, but I don't have my sets calibrated anyways and neither do probably 99% of people, so you must realize how silly it sounds to be having someone else judging sets that your going to watch using professionally calibrated settings people are unlikely to use on sets they are unlikely to be able to afford

Of course you could go a step further and bring a calibration disc with you to the store if you really wanted.
Except that color is not a matter of opinion. Color is a science. If, in your opinion, inaccurate color is better than accurate color, then you are critiquing the director and cinematographer's choices. Your experience with the F8500 could have been quite different if you pursued accuracy.

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post #285 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SimonBirchNYC View Post
Noob Q: How do you feel about the 85HU8550 having the 8 zones? Any downside to this at all?
There will be if you put it next to a Vizio and compare the sticker price.

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post #286 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:32 AM
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They more or less answered all questions, thank you!


LG rep: LG Display is listening. Hopefully they do.

According to d-nice who was the one calibrating the LG OLED certain contrast and OLED light numbers are needed to properly calibrate the LG oled by using the 20 point isf.
He didn't tell us the exact numbers though.
Kevin mentioned some clipping issues.

Apparently 2 stuck pixels according to Robert.
LG rep encouraging to contact LG if there are any problems with subpixels and he hopes that customers are satisfied with LG customer service.

While he admits that OLED black is impressive, he'll keep his 5 kuros.

Now I am looking forward to your review, David.
It is rumored that D-nice's will requires that he be buried with the Kuros.
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post #287 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:34 AM
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Or HDTVtest flubbed the review. OLED is known to have viewing angle issues. It was not calibration related, viewing angles never are..
Only issue with off angle viewing with the lg oled is a slight yellowing of whites when viewing from the side
Are there other issues? Having watched my oled from angles, I can say it's very much like plasma
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post #288 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:39 AM
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It's as if you didn't read my post at all. I explained in pretty clear detail the math differences here.

As for the Kuro, it hasn't been manufactured in many, many years. It got popular once when it was sold off on closeout.

Your knowledge of the shootouts is pretty limited, but when they were won by $3,000 TVs, let's say those are akin to 7-series BMWs and S-class Mercedes. Those each sell more than 10,000 units per year in the U.S. Each. Add in another pile of Tesla Model S sedans (outselling either of those), the Panamera, the Audi 8, the Lexus LS and you get a market well past the 50,000 range. If we look at the total of luxury sedans like those, we're going to close to 0.5% of the total U.S. auto market. In the case of the TVs, as I demonstrated above, all of these models together aren't close to that.

Quite frankly, even though those cars are unaffordable for most people, you've made my point: They represent a real fringe of the market. The TVs being shown at the shootout -- all put together -- won't sell in those numbers by any stretch of the imagination.

Incidentally, in a car shootout, it's pretty unlikely a big sedan would win, except maybe the Tesla.

ok.....I dont much about the shootout?

well
did you have a time frame in what you stated in shoot out history?...did your statement mention just the last 2 years?

The Kuro was popular before it was sold on closeout..
Not sure what litmus you are using for that statement

by the way...didnt the $6K Sharp elite win the shootout?
http://www.cnet.com/news/sharp-elite...hdtv-shootout/


On the car deal...you need to have placed the word " lease" where I bolded the word sell
The overwhelming majority of those cars are leased
That creates a significantly different business plan for a manufacturer...when the item comes back 24-36 months later and then is resold under one of their programs

if you look at the pile of cars you mentioned( i am not sure about the tesla and their programs)...and their buying programs compared to those in much lower price points...ie...the mass market....you will see a great shift in the way the item is purchased

TV's..not so much

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post #289 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:41 AM
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Only issue with off angle viewing with the lg oled is a slight yellowing of whites when viewing from the side
Are there other issues? Having watched my oled from angles, I can say it's very much like plasma
Yes, viewed from an angle it performs very much like a miscalibrated plasma. I did not just see a slight yellowing of whites, I saw a complete shift in color temperature when viewing off angle. Simply put, current OLEDs are not 100% color accurate, unless viewed (relatively) straight on.
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post #290 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:47 AM
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I watched the disaster Sat night where not a legitimate real question was brought up during the final Q & A (Seriously? 4K Blu Ray release dates and streaming? Don't we have press releases for those?)
You don't think people eyeballing 21:9 sets might want to know if there are any plans for anamorphic 21:9 content in a 4K physical disc format? I must have missed the press release, can you link please?
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post #291 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 06:49 AM
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Yes, viewed from an angle it performs very much like a miscalibrated plasma. I did not just see a slight yellowing of whites, I saw a complete shift in color temperature when viewing off angle. Simply put, current OLEDs are not 100% color accurate, unless viewed straight on.
ill see if I can see a complete color shift next time i watch it
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post #292 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:22 AM
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My apologies for not reading the entirety of this thread in case this appears previously. I watched some of the live stream on Saturday and caught Joe Kane's presentation. The man has a good plan. My hope is that the regulators and manufacturers can get on board with him and his 20 year vision.
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post #293 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:27 AM
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Yes, please.

Also, any observations regarding the Sony X950B would be appreciated.

Several folks including David Katzmaeir were very impressed with the X950B when they saw it at CES in January, calling it the best LED/LCD TV they had ever seen, but it hardly got any mention here on the AVS shootout thread - how did you think it measure up (both against the other LED/LCD TVs and the OLEDs)???
So I asked Joe Kane his opinion on the wisdom of buying a UHD TV today and he was quite vocal about it. He thought people were far too concerned about obsolescence related to any upcoming standards. He said he would have zero reservations about buying today. I thought his logic made a ton of sense as he explained. First, regarding Rec2020, as I had mentioned before after reading an article he had written in Widescreen Review, he doesn't think it will happen for a variety of reasons. He feels it's asking for trouble given how easy it will be for errors to be introduced into the system. He also addressed this during his talk on Sunday. Further, even if it does come to fruition, it's very likely it will actually improve current UHD TV's color. So for Joe, this was pretty much a non-issue.

Next is HDR. Again, Joe's attitude is 'good luck with that'. There are many issues surrounding a successful implementation of HDR and it would be years before we ever saw it...if at all. Display technology would have to be advanced far beyond what we have now. OLED isn't even close to having the capability to do HDR. To do HDR the way some envision it would likely cause discomfort among many viewers. Again, in terms of buying a UHD TV today, pretty much a non-issue.

I'm sure this will do little to quell the fears of those that are already paralyzed with concern, but it pretty much confirmed what I had already felt about this and had discussed in other threads. I abandoned the primary thread where this discussion was touched upon because that just became an insane 'bickering thread'.

As for the Sony X950B, very impressive. In some scenes the blacks gave the OLEDs a run for their money. However, as expected, viewing angles were very bad with some colors more impacted than others. When a full screen red was put up, the Sony's off-angle color was totally whacked and appeared as a light orange. In fact in that regard it seemed the worst of all the displays. I have no idea why that would be, but it was that one color. It wasn't quite as bad with regular program material, but it wasn't good either.

For me the biggest issues was blooming. In low APL scenes where there were a number of point sources of light, the point source was less of a point source than some of the other displays. The OLEDs were clearly superior in this regard. Every point source of light was just that, a point source...no extraneous light surrounding it.

With that said, viewed heads on for most material, it was stunning.

The 79" Sony, which I had been seriously considering prior to its release, was a huge disappointment for me. The black levels just could not keep up and were probably the worst of any of the displays. Bright scenes looked beautiful, dark scenes not so much. The Sony Rep was sitting next to me and I asked him why they went with an IPS panel for this display. Essentially, once Sony decided they wanted a 79" class display, the options were limited to the LG panel. No surprises there. He acknowledged it was a great 'bright room' display and I'd probably agree with him.
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post #294 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:37 AM
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Ken, how did the latest and greatest LCD's compare to your Elite?
Andy, the XBR950 was better in some regards and worse in others. It was better in achieving a blacker black, but I'm really nit-picking here. But by getting those blacker blacks and shutting off the LEDs, Sony introduces blooming...something I rarely see on my Elite.

In the area of color, the nod would go to the Sony. As was discussed, despite not having a CMS, the Sony achieves a better color accuracy with fewer means of achieving a fine calibration. I kidded the calibrators that they should charge less of calibrating a Sony since it should take less time. As for the Elite, it's no secret about the Elite's handling of cyan and some other colors at low luminance levels.

Overall, if someone wanted to trade an 85" XBR 950B for my 60" Elite, let me know where I should meet you.
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post #295 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So I asked Joe Kane his opinion on the wisdom of buying a UHD TV today and he was quite vocal about it. He thought people were far too concerned about obsolescence related to any upcoming standards. He said he would have zero reservations about buying today. I thought his logic made a ton of sense as he explained. First, regarding Rec2020, as I had mentioned before after reading an article he had written in Widescreen Review, he doesn't think it will happen for a variety of reasons. He feels it's asking for trouble given how easy it will be for errors to be introduced into the system. He also addressed this during his talk on Sunday. Further, even if it does come to fruition, it's very likely it will actually improve current UHD TV's color. So for Joe, this was pretty much a non-issue.

Next is HDR. Again, Joe's attitude is 'good luck with that'. There are many issues surrounding a successful implementation of HDR and it would be years before we ever saw it...if at all. Display technology would have to be advanced far beyond what we have now. OLED isn't even close to having the capability to do HDR. To do HDR the way some envision it would likely cause discomfort among many viewers. Again, in terms of buying a UHD TV today, pretty much a non-issue.

I'm sure this will do little to quell the fears of those that are already paralyzed with concern, but it pretty much confirmed what I had already felt about this and had discussed in other threads. I abandoned the primary thread where this discussion was touched upon because that just became an insane 'bickering thread'.

As for the Sony X950B, very impressive. In some scenes the blacks gave the OLEDs a run for their money. However, as expected, viewing angles were very bad with some colors more impacted than others. When a full screen red was put up, the Sony's off-angle color was totally whacked and appeared as a light orange. In fact in that regard it seemed the worst of all the displays. I have no idea why that would be, but it was that one color. It wasn't quite as bad with regular program material, but it wasn't good either.

For me the biggest issues was blooming. In low APL scenes where there were a number of point sources of light, the point source was less of a point source than some of the other displays. The OLEDs were clearly superior in this regard. Every point source of light was just that, a point source...no extraneous light surrounding it.

With that said, viewed heads on for most material, it was stunning.

The 79" Sony, which I had been seriously considering prior to its release, was a huge disappointment for me. The black levels just could not keep up and were probably the worst of any of the displays. Bright scenes looked beautiful, dark scenes not so much. The Sony Rep was sitting next to me and I asked him why they went with an IPS panel for this display. Essentially, once Sony decided they wanted a 79" class display, the options were limited to the LG panel. No surprises there. He acknowledged it was a great 'bright room' display and I'd probably agree with him.
Thank you for your detailed analysis. I find you as one of the most fair and balanced of all "industry insiders" on avs

what was your opinion of the sammy sets?
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post #296 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:40 AM
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Yes, viewed from an angle it performs very much like a miscalibrated plasma. I did not just see a slight yellowing of whites, I saw a complete shift in color temperature when viewing off angle. Simply put, current OLEDs are not 100% color accurate, unless viewed (relatively) straight on.
Unfortunately, Mark is 100% correct. I have been very disappointed with the offaxis viewing of the Sammy and LG OLEDs. Nowhere near as god as with a plasma. They better get better at it to get me interested. Seems to me that tvs have taken a step backwards this yer.
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post #297 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:43 AM
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No way. Either the set was faulty or D-Nice flubbed the calibration.

From HDTVtest review:

"Our review unit had no stuck or dead pixels, and exhibited excellent uniformity without any evidence of image retention or dirty screen effect (DSE) during normal viewing. Together with the wide viewing angle (it’s as good as plasma’s) and effective anti-reflective filter, these factors contribute to a very lucid,“looking out of window” experience."
Viewing angle should have nothing to do with calibration. These are two different things. Off-axis viewing is inherent in the panel's construction. Dr. Larry Weber had a good explanation as to why the Samsung OLED exhibited this and not the LG, which had a much better viewing angle. It was really surprising how bad the Samsung was in this regard and it initially prompted me to think that it was either a red push or a calibration error. But when I got up and walked in front of the panel, the issue was gone.
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post #298 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:44 AM
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I attended yesterday's afternoon session. Unfortunately I had to leave early as it was running long and I had to be somewhere.

My impression:

First of all, Robert and Wendy Zohn cannot be anymore gracious. This is truly a Mom and Pop (and kids) operation and should be supported. Robert made a great point about how they compete with the Big Box stores. Paraphrasing: The price of a set, such as those he sells, is usually dictated by the manufacturer, so why not go to him. And I agree.

I too am in agreement that the LG OLED [55EC9300 / 1080p] (much to my surprise) was clearly the best. Its blacks easily outclass all the other sets. Last years winner was on hand but was mounted way too high to be judged. But from what I saw it held its own, of course. The Samsung rep also mentioned that they will determine its availability as long as there's a demand for it. But we all know the demand for Plasma is waning. So I don't see it being available next year.

My only quibble, and I can't believe I am saying this, is that it's too technical a presentation when it comes to the evaluating part. I rather see real content than patterns. For instance, they showed a (dark) scene being looped from a Harry Potter movie that really made the LG OLED shine. That's was very informative. Unfortunately, I cannot recall which HP movie it was.

I was eager to meet Joe Kane and actually brought my Video Standards LD for him to sign. He couldn't be a nicer or accommodating (I attached the pic of the LD with his sig). His presentation was great. Very informative (of course) and funny at times.

Enjoy the Pics!









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post #299 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:46 AM
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It's not only not grayed out, it's not even a menu option.

This is an improvement on last year's LG OLEDs where the DNR was constantly on but listed as "Off" in the menu, which is simply incorrect.

The gist I got was that the current OLEDs will stay DNR'ing everything but after this event, LG will do away with it (or make it optional) on future models. I can't imagine why they would continue shooting themselves in the foot and not delivering all of the detail in the source when their biggest competitor has had this down for years.
Dave, with the pressure you 3 guys will apply to LG, they'll have no other choice but to cry "UNCLE!". They will submit.
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post #300 of 632 Old 08-18-2014, 07:48 AM
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I don't (currently) own a KURO, but I have no plans to get rid of my Panasonic plasma. Replacing that will require a tech better than LCD.
Hmm, thought we had that already.
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