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fafrd's Avatar fafrd 05:52 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
They should have tilted that TV. Everyone is going to ignore that TV because it will be a pain in the neck.

It's going end of life soon - Samsung has an interest to assure that it does not win this year...

turnne1's Avatar turnne1 05:56 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
[ rant]
I am seriously a fan of Robert and what he does, but it's hard to imagine a more useless event than this....

2 1080p OLEDs, one of which hasn't been manufactured in many months and is de facto discontinued
A plasma that is also essentially discontinued
2 Sony LCDs, one of which is $25,000... the other of which is $8,000, higher priced than any winner of the shootout by far, larger by far than any winner, and edge lit
3 Samsung LCDs, one of which is completely absurd at $120,000, more pricey than a well equipped Tesla Model S... a second of $10,000 and 85 inches, features and prices that rule it out for 99.99% of buyers for one or both reasons... oh, and it's also edge lit (despite claims to the contrary)... the third is still $8,000 (see above), still too big for the vast majority of buyers, still edge lit

It's never been less consequential who wins, finishes second, etc. These TVs represent bad technological choices (1080p!), bad size choices for the vast majority of buyers (78, 85, 105 are dealbreakers straight up for 99% of people), and unrealistic prices for a similar percentage of people. This is a shootout for the 0.01% who honestly have more money and space than taste.

If you really want to burn a small fortune on a TV, at least wait for a 4K OLED.

[ /rant]
while I understand what you are saying

if you really want to take the shootout to a reality check position

They have always catered to the smallest upper percentile of TV's in both price and volume
I would speculate that any TV in the shootout...in any year...represented less than 5% of the market

many times that particular model( or platform) was a "one and done" since it was such an obvious money loser for the manufacturer
Well tested and regarded...but not a profit maker

So..how far you think they should take this is your own opinion

However..please dont think by any stretch that what they have tested in the past represents anything close to a product that a mainstream buyer is looking at

They have NEVER had TV in the shootout that represented the mainstream buyer

Warren
NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky 05:58 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I will just note that the F8500 screen filter limits vertical viewing angles. The TV is over 12 feet high with no downward tilt. That is not right.
That ain't good, not fair.
fafrd's Avatar fafrd 05:59 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
where do you get this type of information from?

the same place you got those sales percentages you posted the other day......

BUT...if you are right about the 19 pallets...it sounds like Walmart is gearing up to be flush with new Vizio product



Warren

You really need to get out more, Warren :-) - Check out post #4973 of this thread: 2014 Vizio Thread All models


And as for your conclusion, good chance for Walmart, but Costco for sure...
fafrd's Avatar fafrd 06:01 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
while I understand what you are saying

if you really want to take the shootout to a reality check position

They have always catered to the smallest upper percentile of TV's in both price and volume
I would speculate that any TV in the shootout...in any year...represented less than 5% of the market

many times that particular model( or platform) was a "one and done" since it was such an obvious money loser for the manufacturer
Well tested and regarded...but not a profit maker

So..how far you think they should take this is your own opinion

However..please dont think by any stretch that what they have tested in the past represents anything close to a product that a mainstream buyer is looking at

They have NEVER had TV in the shootout that represented the mainstream buyer

Warren

And with the disqualification of the 65" Vizio M this year, they have kept that perfect track alive...
imagic's Avatar imagic 06:02 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
They should have tilted that TV. Everyone is going to ignore that TV because it will be a pain in the neck.
Due to seating position the audience cannot make a full proper assessment of the LCDs. Just not possible without getting up and moving for every TV.
fafrd's Avatar fafrd 06:06 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
That ain't good, not fair.

Northsky, you seem savy enough to know that life is not fair :-)

I think the results are a foregone conclusion:

Samsung KN55S9 wins the 1080p category

Samsung 105S9 wins the 4K category

In exchange for providing VE the first-ever public evaluation of a >100"-class TV, they will be sure to get the outcome that is best for them(which includes no accolades for a 2013 product which is being discontinued :-(
imagic's Avatar imagic 06:39 PM 08-16-2014
The LCDs look horrendous in the dark.
losservatore's Avatar losservatore 06:49 PM 08-16-2014
That's smart that they use a test pattern like this to test the blacks.


Black image with a white border.


Attached: New Image.jpg (6.6 KB) 
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 06:54 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
You really need to get out more, Warren :-) - Check out post #4973 of this thread: 2014 Vizio Thread All models


And as for your conclusion, good chance for Walmart, but Costco for sure...
lol...and like your other quotes...suspect

who is the person saying this?

I dont see those credentials that would me take this as gospel

somewhat like your percentages of Tv's sold in the United States

where did you "get out" to know those figures to be accurate?

I...and at least 4 others asked for those credentials...do tell ,as I didn't see you post your source to validate your credibility

...and excellent chance for Walmart...if there is any verifiable merit to those figures

Warren
turnne1's Avatar turnne1 06:59 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
And with the disqualification of the 65" Vizio M this year, they have kept that perfect track alive...
they test the best of the best

while the Vizio is probably quite a good performer....i have not seen one yet....it doesnt meet the criteria of upper echelon players that are contenders in the shootout

perhaps they need to have another one for more mainstream products...that people are really buying in numbers

Though ..I am sure the ST60 would have taken that award all day long last year

Based on what I read about the picture quality and the price point...Vizio has a serious winner on their hands with the M series this year

Warren
NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky 07:01 PM 08-16-2014
Well then, once more life ain't that impressive. ...I'll go play with the kids in the garden. ...There the view is just fine, and we're all happy.
music_to_my_ear's Avatar music_to_my_ear 07:04 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The LCDs look horrendous in the dark.
What about the Samsung HU9000? That one looked to have the deepest black levels even with the input selection menu in the centre of the screen, I didn't see any blooming

Whereas the other two leds beside it, the black levels were grey-ish-blue-black
music_to_my_ear's Avatar music_to_my_ear 07:08 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The final participant list has just been posted by HDGuru: http://hdguru.com/2014-shootout-for-...nd/#more-14099


"Zohn provided HD Guru with the set-up photos. The competing UHD 4K models are:
Samsung
UN105S9 curved panel 105-inch 21:9 aspect ratio back-lit LED LCD with local dimming . This is the most expensive model in the competition selling for $120,000
UN78HU9000 curved panel 78-inch edge-lit LED LCD with local dimming
UN85HU8550 flat panel 85-inch LED LCD back-lit with local dimming
Sony
XBR85X950B flat panel 85-inch LED LCD back-lit with local dimming
XBR79X900B flat panel 79-inch edge-it LED LCD with local dimming

Competing HDTV models are
Samsung
PN64F8500 flat panel plasma
KN55S9 curved panel OLED
LG
55EC9300 curved panel OLED



There will also be a Vizio M652i-B2 flat panel back-lit with local dimming LED LCD HDTV on-hand. However, it will not be voted on as it did not perform well enough to be included in the final group."

So the Vizio M will be there but will not be voted on (which is too bad :-( but there will be a 105" $120,000 Samsung FALD LED/LCD to represent the class :-)
What tv is the one second from the right?
fafrd's Avatar fafrd 07:18 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
lol...and like your other quotes...suspect

who is the person saying this?

I dont see those credentials that would me take this as gospel
If you are asking about the source of the shipments / pallets information, I don't know them personally. But last time around when everyone was waiting for availability of the M Series, similar information on shipments into the US ended up predicting availability in the channels including Amazon and Costco pretty accurately...

If you are asking who I am, you are welcome to send me a PM any time - it would be a pleasure to know you.

I dont see those credentials that would me take this as gospel


Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
somewhat like your percentages of Tv's sold in the United States

where did you "get out" to know those figures to be accurate?

I...and at least 4 others asked for those credentials...do tell ,as I didn't see you post your source to validate your credibility
Most of my high-level information on the overall TV market has been borrowed from Rogo (who I have a great deal of respect for), though I have also seen similar numbers thrown around in various industry reports from displaysearch, IHS, and others.

I'm up to 3000 posts, mostly all since CES this year. I generally post links to my sources when I first discover them (and then just refer to similar figures from memory). If you want to wade through all of my posts since CES, you will probably find posts from 3rd party sources confirming most of the loose figures I have thrown around. I unfortunately don't have the time for that now - this is something I do for fun and not for work.

That being said, if there is a particular number that I've thrown out regarding the US TV market, if you can let me know which one, I'll be happy to see what I can dig up with a bit of google research...

While I may be able to validate the 'credibility' of my sources, I just an Average Joe enthusiast like you - no industry connections or anything else I can point to to convince you that I am any more credible than the next guy. I'll let my track record here on the Forum speak for itself...


Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
...and excellent chance for Walmart...if there is any verifiable merit to those figures

Warren
Because I visit Costco fairly regularly (every couple of months or so), I feel like I have a handle on their approach and how it ties to availability at other mainstream channels including Best Buy and Amazon.

I don't really know enough about Walmart to have an opinion - the few times I have been to Walmart, they seem to have had the lowest common denominator stuff and often I see TVs that are not only horribly calibrated but sometime just not working period (ie: defective).

So while I think you are right that Walmart is likely to offer the Vizio P Series TVs before yearend, I am not confident as to whether that will be in the form of store inventory or special-order / online-order status.
fafrd's Avatar fafrd 07:22 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
What about the Samsung HU9000? That one looked to have the deepest black levels even with the input selection menu in the centre of the screen, I didn't see any blooming

Whereas the other two leds beside it, the black levels were grey-ish-blue-black

Music_to-my-ear, are you there in person??


I'm curious as to how the black levels of the Sony X950B measure up against the edge-lit set from Sony and Samsung...
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 07:27 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
[ rant]
I am seriously a fan of Robert and what he does, but it's hard to imagine a more useless event than this....

2 1080p OLEDs, one of which hasn't been manufactured in many months and is de facto discontinued
A plasma that is also essentially discontinued
2 Sony LCDs, one of which is $25,000... the other of which is $8,000, higher priced than any winner of the shootout by far, larger by far than any winner, and edge lit
3 Samsung LCDs, one of which is completely absurd at $120,000, more pricey than a well equipped Tesla Model S... a second of $10,000 and 85 inches, features and prices that rule it out for 99.99% of buyers for one or both reasons... oh, and it's also edge lit (despite claims to the contrary)... the third is still $8,000 (see above), still too big for the vast majority of buyers, still edge lit

It's never been less consequential who wins, finishes second, etc. These TVs represent bad technological choices (1080p!), bad size choices for the vast majority of buyers (78, 85, 105 are dealbreakers straight up for 99% of people), and unrealistic prices for a similar percentage of people. This is a shootout for the 0.01% who honestly have more money and space than taste.

If you really want to burn a small fortune on a TV, at least wait for a 4K OLED.

[ /rant]
as a business owner, I would agree he's not making the best decisions that will lead to the most sales. but as a videophile, these are the TV's on the market, the ONLY TV's on the market, that warrant a spot in this competition.


the f8500 'has' to be there as the reigning champ should be 'dethrowned' before a new champ can truly be crowned. and really, I think learning what 2014 model is best is meaningless unless I also know it's better than the 2013 model.


I think it would be a pretty sad shoot out if it was between some LG plasmas, and cheap edge-lit lcd's. I'd say that's like the special Olympics version of the shoot out, but that would be really unfair to compare the competitors of the special Olympics to such low end TV's...


no, most of us are not likely to buy the tv that wins this shootout. but that's not Robert's fault, it's the sad state of the market currently. you can choose from the cheapest versions of the old tech(all the good plasmas and FALD lcd's aren't being made anymore) or the prohibitively expensive new tech. what I want, I can't afford, and what I can afford, I don't want.
rogo's Avatar rogo 07:35 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
while I understand what you are saying

if you really want to take the shootout to a reality check position

They have always catered to the smallest upper percentile of TV's in both price and volume
I would speculate that any TV in the shootout...in any year...represented less than 5% of the market
So let's agree that the shootout caters to a sliver of the market (it does!). But there's a difference between a sliver and a vanishingly small, nearly undetectable sliver.
Quote:
However..please dont think by any stretch that what they have tested in the past represents anything close to a product that a mainstream buyer is looking at

They have NEVER had TV in the shootout that represented the mainstream buyer
The number of people for whom a 65-inch, ~$3000 is affordable and "living-room-able" is quite literally orders of magnitude greater than the number of people who would even consider the models in this year's shootout.

And the winner typically has been a ~$3000 TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
as a business owner, I would agree he's not making the best decisions that will lead to the most sales. but as a videophile, these are the TV's on the market, the ONLY TV's on the market, that warrant a spot in this competition.


the f8500 'has' to be there as the reigning champ should be 'dethrowned' before a new champ can truly be crowned. and really, I think learning what 2014 model is best is meaningless unless I also know it's better than the 2013 model.


I think it would be a pretty sad shoot out if it was between some LG plasmas, and cheap edge-lit lcd's. I'd say that's like the special Olympics version of the shoot out, but that would be really unfair to compare the competitors of the special Olympics to such low end TV's...
I'm not a fan of analogies that poke fun at the disabled, whether that was your intention or not.
Quote:
no, most of us are not likely to buy the tv that wins this shootout. but that's not Robert's fault, it's the sad state of the market currently. you can choose from the cheapest versions of the old tech(all the good plasmas and FALD lcd's aren't being made anymore) or the prohibitively expensive new tech. what I want, I can't afford, and what I can afford, I don't want.
I think you're correct. It's not Robert's fault that a videophile class display that people actually might put in a normal-sized family room is not for sale anymore. But to that end, I see no reason to have this shootout at all. It would have been an interesting statement to go ahead and cancel it.

Running this hedge-funder shootout makes no sense to me at all.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 07:41 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I will just note that the F8500 screen filter limits vertical viewing angles. The TV is over 12 feet high with no downward tilt. That is not right.
Well we can't have it winning again and upstaging the vastly more expensive LCDs at Samsung's showcase event here can we?
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 07:46 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The LCDs look horrendous in the dark.
What are you talking about? This year's crop of LCD TVs are nothing like the LCDs of previous years.

I read it on the internet. It has to be true.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 07:48 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
That's smart that they use a test pattern like this to test the blacks.

Black image with a white border.

If you want to handicap the edge-lit "local" dimming sets, yes. How much real world low APL content do you know of that is like that though?
Janibrewski's Avatar Janibrewski 07:48 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattopotamus View Post
Interesting they went with the 79" 900B which is an IPS panel and not as good as the 65" VA
As an owner of the Sony 79X900B, I'm thrilled that they've included it.

It's going to get killed, though.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 07:53 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janibrewski View Post
It's going to get killed, though.
And it will be a bloodbath.
Janibrewski's Avatar Janibrewski 08:00 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
And it will be a bloodbath.
I'm hoping they've got a calibration magician that can make lemonade out of it. And then come to my house.
losservatore's Avatar losservatore 08:37 PM 08-16-2014
Robert was trying with the marketing talk to justify those large TVs that were performing pretty bad,I guess that picture quality doesn't matter anymore just pixels.






How can he said that if you look for the best ,this right here are the best and the calibrators were quiet but at the same time saying some contradictions but !!!! They stepped back to not cause him trouble lol.
shoek's Avatar shoek 08:56 PM 08-16-2014
A few comments after watching all of the live stream tonite:

- Samsung 85" 8550; the guy from Samsung seemed to indicate it was "direct backlit local dimming" which seemed to confirm what HDGuru has been saying. It is unclear how many zones that is, and why they don't call it FALD
- The Sony's looked terrible on the stream, perhaps because of their motion interpolation setting at Clear+? I saw terrible flicker
- The HU9000 looked really good, but that could have been because of the camera angle being more direct on it
- The F8500 looked very good, even way up high
- The OLED's were too hard to see because they were so low, blocked by the seated audience
- They seemed to indicate that OLED's have off-axis viewing problems too that I did not think was a big issue
- Why include the 120K TV? Silly
- Would have been nice to have the Panasonic AX800 there
- I really liked that test pattern with the white around the edges; it really showed the differences in handling dimming
tubby497's Avatar tubby497 08:59 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoek View Post
A few comments after watching all of the live stream tonite:

- Samsung 85" 8550; the guy from Samsung seemed to indicate it was "direct backlit local dimming" which seemed to confirm what HDGuru has been saying. It is unclear how many zones that is, and why they don't call it FALD
- The Sony's looked terrible on the stream, perhaps because of their motion interpolation setting at Clear+? I saw terrible flicker
- The HU9000 looked really good, but that could have been because of the camera angle being more direct on it
- The F8500 looked very good, even way up high
- The OLED's were too hard to see because they were so low, blocked by the seated audience
- They seemed to indicate that OLED's have off-axis viewing problems too that I did not think was a big issue
- Why include the 120K TV? Silly
- Would have been nice to have the Panasonic AX800 there
- I really liked that test pattern with the white around the edges; it really showed the differences in handling dimming
+ little OLED discussion
+ 4K and Blu-ray

I was hyped up for this years shootout but feels bit disappointed after watching it. Maybe tomorrow shootout will be better.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 09:06 PM 08-16-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm not a fan of analogies that poke fun at the disabled, whether that was your intention or not.


what I said was 100% serious, not trying to be funny or sarcastic about it. I actually have a lot more respect for the athletes in the special Olympics than a vizio lcd... I just couldn't think of a good way to make my point, but simply put doing a 'shoot out' for the 'best' display would mean nothing if there was some limitation that prevented the 'best' displays from competing. whether or not YOU find it useful, I understand.
Yappadappadu's Avatar Yappadappadu 09:09 PM 08-16-2014
It was a bit disappointing that they didn't answer any questions from the online crowd that was posting in the livestream chat.
Would have liked to know from the calibrators if gray scale uniformity of the LG OLED has been improved compared to last year's EA9800. And also why they think LG didn't include BFI to improve motion resolution.
fierce_gt's Avatar fierce_gt 09:10 PM 08-16-2014
so I guess it isn't my imagination that Samsung has issues with maintaining hdmi connections... what's up with that anyway? my f8500 needs to re-establish handshake every time I fart it seems. so unstable.


and so far, oled better not die. please don't give up on oled lg, I will forever buy TV's from you as long as you keep making oled and everybody else sticks with lcd...
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