2014 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results Are In - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 599 Old 08-19-2014, 11:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Luckily there are tons of TVs available that are optimized for bright living rooms. There are far fewer that are optimized for dark room viewing of letterboxed cinematic content. That said, I have not seen the F8500 exhibit grayish blacks during the day. Perhaps my studio is not bright enough.

My plasma bias is based on nothing other than reality.
Bring an f8500 to my living room and if you would with a straight face give an f8500a 9 in black levels during the day, I will give you $100. Yes your plasma bias is based upon your plasma, this is fine but people need to know just because someone writes for the forum (and very Well I might add) they do have their biases As we all do. That's what a people choice is thou and everyone should vote how ever they want.

I purchased a f8500 and was so thrilled at night, excellent colors, not OLED contrast but excellent. I went to sleep so happy I gained screen size and everything was great. The next morning I went to watch the f8500 and was shocked at the difference. That being said plasmas are Excellent choices if you are not dealing with direct sunlight like I am. I still miss the Tune-in radio app that I only found on the F8500.

I liked the f8500 so much I almost purchased black out drapes and kept it.
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post #332 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
Bring an f8500 to my living room and if you would with a straight face give an f8500a 9 in black levels during the day, I will give you $100. Yes your plasma bias is based upon your plasma, this is fine but people need to know just because someone writes for the forum (and very Well I might add) they do have their biases As we all do. That's what a people choice is thou and everyone should vote how ever they want.

I purchased a f8500 and was so thrilled at night, excellent colors, not OLED contrast but excellent. I went to sleep so happy I gained screen size and everything was great. The next morning I went to watch the f8500 and was shocked at the difference. That being said plasmas are Excellent choices if you are not dealing with direct sunlight like I am. I still miss the Tune-in radio app that I only found on the F8500.

I liked the f8500 so much I almost purchased black out drapes and kept it.
I'm also biased by the fact that I grew up watching movies in darkened rooms, and I consider that the proper way to watch cinematic content.

Don't forget that I have two LCDs in my studio, including one that is UHD. The F8500 is no worse than either LCD in bright light.
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post #333 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
just test it. it is easy:
http://testufo.com/

the motion blur problem of sample and hold displays doesn't look totally unnatural in most cases. so you will very fast see what I mean when you see the test on a normal PC display and the tons of motion blur with it is nothing you can't notice.
Katzmeier had a hard time seeing the difference between 300 lines and 1080 lines in actual content when he tried to. Lots of people have. It is fine that the Shootout has a Motion Resolution test but for lots of people in the real world with actual content 300 lines is not much of a problem.

Motion blur is a natural phenonomen to say that motion blur looks unnatural is a akward statment. Wave your hand in front of your face, take a look at natural blur. Having no blur is not natural..

Having a bit of blur in actual content is not how it suppost to be but it is not much of a problem for lots of people either..
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post #334 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post
I have a ten-year old commercial Panasonic Plasma.... Panasonic TH-50PHD7UY....zero motion issues....zero problem with dimness..........no buzz unless ear is 1/4" from back of set (never heard a buzz in 10 years until tried to put my ear that close to the back of the set due to comments regarding buzzing on this forum)...... fabulous inky blacks....great detail.....great daytime viewing, albeit some minor reflections.
I have the previous year's Panny plasma and am just as thrilled.

Every time I read the reviews I come away realizing that moving to a newer set just isn't justified yet.
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post #335 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Katzmeier had a hard time seeing the difference between 300 lines and 1080 lines in actual content when he tried to. Lots of people have. It is fine that the Shootout has a Motion Resolution test but for lots of people in the real world with actual content 300 lines is not much of a problem.

Motion blur is a natural phenonomen to say that motion blur looks unnatural is a akward statment. Wave your hand in front of your face, take a look at natural blur. Having no blur is not natural..

Having a bit of blur in actual content is not how it suppost to be but it is not much of a problem for lots of people either..
The amount of blur should reflect the choices made by the cinematographer, not the limitations of the TV.

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post #336 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm also biased by the fact that I grew up watching movies in darkened rooms, and I consider that the proper way to watch cinematic content.

Don't forget that I have two LCDs in my studio, including one that is UHD. The F8500 is no worse than either LCD in bright light.
No complaints with black levels in my living room, which can get pretty bright

It's a ****** cell pic but still get a very good pic with the drapes open

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post #337 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
The next morning I went to watch the f8500 and was shocked at the difference. That being said plasmas are Excellent choices if you are not dealing with direct sunlight like I am. I still miss the Tune-in radio app that I only found on the F8500.

I liked the f8500 so much I almost purchased black out drapes and kept it.
Your experience doesn't make much sense as higher ambient light constricts the pupil making blacks appear blacker. Calibrators often aim for lower gamma (increase of shadow detail/etc) for day-modes in bright ambient light, because blacks can look crushed otherwise.

Heck, my CCFL lit LCD appears to have excellent blacks in the bright ambient light of my living room .... turn the lights off and it's a terrible blue-glow. My PN60F5300 plasma has pitch black looking blacks in my calibrated cal-day mode and a very very slight glow in its cal-night mode in no ambient light.

To say the F8500, with blacks in the .002 fL - .005 fL range, turns "grey" in the living room makes absolutely no sense.
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post #338 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm also biased by the fact that I grew up watching movies in darkened rooms, and I consider that the proper way to watch cinematic content.

Don't forget that I have two LCDs in my studio, including one that is UHD. The F8500 is no worse than either LCD in bright light.
Kinda patronizing him aren't you?

I too owned a f8500 for a day. I too have walls of windows opposite the Tv. Black level wise both appear about the same during the day. The 100fL without ABL from the LCD I purchased is FAR easier to see during the day. No comparison.
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post #339 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
Bring an f8500 to my living room and if you would with a straight face give an f8500a 9 in black levels during the day, I will give you $100. Yes your plasma bias is based upon your plasma, this is fine but people need to know just because someone writes for the forum (and very Well I might add) they do have their biases As we all do. That's what a people choice is thou and everyone should vote how ever they want.

I purchased a f8500 and was so thrilled at night, excellent colors, not OLED contrast but excellent. I went to sleep so happy I gained screen size and everything was great. The next morning I went to watch the f8500 and was shocked at the difference. That being said plasmas are Excellent choices if you are not dealing with direct sunlight like I am. I still miss the Tune-in radio app that I only found on the F8500.

I liked the f8500 so much I almost purchased black out drapes and kept it.

Why are you taking marks votes so personally. They are his opinion. If you went to the event then you could have voted how you saw things. There is no need to qualify his vote since it didn't fit your needs. Who cares how one person voted, honestly does it hurt you that Mark voted the way he did? His vote for black level wasn't "black level in a bright room" it was black level in a critical viewing environment compared to the rest of the competition. The f8500 might have still done well in a bright room black level test as the competition might have done worse.

You're so gung-ho about OLED yet keep flip floping on which set you want. You proclaim that one set is the best until the defects prove otherwise and then the next set is the "best ever". The only "bias" I see is from you as Mark has been open with his voting and the reasons behind it.


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post #340 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Kinda patronizing him aren't you?

I too owned a f8500 for a day. I too have walls of windows. Black level wise both appear about the same during the day. The 100fL without ABL from the LCD I purchased is FAR easier to see during the day. No comparison.
Just relaying what I observe, I have two LCDs and the F8500 side-by-side, so I can perform a valid comparison between the F8500 and an LCD at any time. Right now, it looks just as bright and crispy as the LCDs, in a room with daylight coming through the windows.
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post #341 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Kinda patronizing him aren't you?

I too owned a f8500 for a day. I too have walls of windows. The 100fL without ABL from the LCD I purchased is FAR easier to see during the day. No comparison.

Mark already said it was for his particular set up. So for his brightest room the F8500 has done no worse. Of course his opinion might change if he was at someone else's house


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post #342 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:40 AM
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Mark already said it was for his particular set up. So for his brightest room the F8500 has done no worse. Of course his opinion might change if he was at someone else's house


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It might, but I've quite a few F8500s in numerous settings and I have yet to see it fail to look as good as the best LCDs do, even in a bright room. You're getting into situations that make no real sense if you need to calibrate your TV to 100 fL in order to watch it comfortably due to the ambient light. That's even more of a niche than dark-room viewing is.

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post #343 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Just relaying what I observe, I have two LCDs and the F8500 side-by-side, so I can perform a valid comparison between the F8500 and an LCD at any time. Right now, it looks just as bright and crispy as the LCDs, in a room with daylight coming through the windows.
Ambient light is not the same as direct daylight. Especially direct daylight which is opposite the TV. I.E the TV is facing into the direct daylight.

It's like the difference of shining a flash light at the wall behind you vs shining it directly in your face. Location and direction of light makes a big difference.

There is a reason you see LCDs used for outdoor TVs at theme parks and such...

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post #344 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It might, but I've quite a few F8500s in numerous settings and I have yet to see it fail to look as good as the best LCDs do, even in a bright room. You're getting into situations that make no real sense if you need to calibrate your TV to 100 fL in order to watch it comfortably due to the ambient light. That's even more of a niche than dark-room viewing is.
Not really, just about all of the newer houses built out here have walls of windows in the family/great room. Depending on what lot you buy and the direction it faces you may be one of these people. Some of the walls of windows go up 30' and are 30' wide. That's a lot of black out blinds! And a really pissed off wife... Lol

100fL from even a large TV is nothing compared to sunlight.

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post #345 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Ambient light is not the same as direct daylight. Especially direct daylight which is opposite the TV. I.E the TV is facing into the direct daylight.

It's like the difference of shining a flash light at the wall behind you vs shining it directly in your face. Location and direction of light makes a big difference.

There is a reason you see LCDs used for outdoor TVs at theme parks and such...
Why watch a TV that has sunlight falling directly upon it if you are indoors? Anyhow, if that's something you need then an LCD in torch mode is just about your only choice.

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post #346 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 07:00 AM
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[QUOTE=imagic;26681489]I figure I'll share my votes here:





Mark,
Shouldn't have the hu9000 with pur color scored higher on color accuracy than the hu8550?


Thanks
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post #347 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Why watch a TV that has sunlight falling directly upon it if you are indoors? Anyhow, if that's something you need then an LCD in torch mode is just about your only choice.
Same conclusion I came too I saved this battle for a hobby car; which I got green lighted... so in the end I'm happy

Ya, unfortunately for us the only time of the year where this is intolerable is the winter months when the sun is deep in the south during the day.

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post #348 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It might, but I've quite a few F8500s in numerous settings and I have yet to see it fail to look as good as the best LCDs do, even in a bright room. You're getting into situations that make no real sense if you need to calibrate your TV to 100 fL in order to watch it comfortably due to the ambient light. That's even more of a niche than dark-room viewing is.
No. No mark. My f8000 is tremendously better for a bright room. You know i love the f8500 and constantly suggest the set.

It is the best daytime plasma ive seen.

But it is not as good as the best lcd in daytime viewing. No. Just no. Come on man.
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post #349 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Katzmeier had a hard time seeing the difference between 300 lines and 1080 lines in actual content when he tried to. Lots of people have. It is fine that the Shootout has a Motion Resolution test but for lots of people in the real world with actual content 300 lines is not much of a problem.

Motion blur is a natural phenonomen to say that motion blur looks unnatural is a akward statment. Wave your hand in front of your face, take a look at natural blur. Having no blur is not natural..

Having a bit of blur in actual content is not how it suppost to be but it is not much of a problem for lots of people either..
.....Precisely why I try to avoid motion blur as a term these days. It's too vague, and doesn't properly describe the motion issues (discomfort) we get from displays.

Cogito ergo sum makes a fundamental mistake because it ignores the implied existence of the narrator. Descartes might as well have said "A rose is red, therefore I am".
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post #350 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Why watch a TV that has sunlight falling directly upon it if you are indoors? Anyhow, if that's something you need then an LCD in torch mode is just about your only choice.
This has always baffled me. Maybe it's because I grew up with CRT. Maybe it's because I don't assume I'm going to put a tv in every room. In either case when I'm choosing where to put a tv in a room I'm not placing it where it has the least advantage to excel. I don't care how bright your display can get or how matte your screen is-- having to compete with direct sunlight sucks and I'm not exactly sure why anyone would voluntarily handicap their display in that way? Now, before the LCD-for-life brigade blasts me as a 'plasmaphile' who lives in a cave, doesn't own lamps and paints their walls black-- we do have TVs in rooms that I wouldn't consider optimum for 'cinematic' consumption. Probably the most glaring (pun intended) is our FL room, essentially a sealed in deck, that we have a tv in. We still chose the spot that would offer the best view with the least amount of direct sunlight. Btw-- it's an LCD with a matte screen. It still can't compete with the sun!
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post #351 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:14 AM
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[quote=Bassplayer6;26727370]
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I figure I'll share my votes here:





Mark,
Shouldn't have the hu9000 with pur color scored higher on color accuracy than the hu8550?


Thanks
Many sites including this one beg to differ. Maybe they had a setting on like warm 2 which many owner's refuse to use but comes up constantly when calibration is discussed.
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post #352 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:28 AM
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Many sites including this one beg to differ. Maybe they had a setting on like warm 2 which many owner's refuse to use but comes up constantly when calibration is discussed.
The irony of you, of all people, telling him that what he sees with his own eyes is wrong and that he should trust some websites instead isn't lost on me.
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post #353 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:35 AM
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The irony of you, of all people, telling him that what he sees with his own eyes is wrong and that he should trust some websites instead isn't lost on me.
Actually your right. I cant say he wrong. His eyes are what he sees.


But i still must say i agree with the former post i have never seen a plasma outside.

But your right.
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post #354 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:39 AM
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The amount of blur should reflect the choices made by the cinematographer, not the limitations of the TV.
agree but that is why i said ''not how it suppost to be''.

Plasma has its motion problems to. According hdtvtest with nearly all Plasma's they have tested smooth gradients can break into contours during very stressful motion.
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post #355 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:53 AM
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The irony of you, of all people, telling him that what he sees with his own eyes is wrong and that he should trust some websites instead isn't lost on me.
It is actually impossible to 'like' this comment harder than I am right now.
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post #356 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 08:54 AM
 
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agree but that is why i said ''not how it suppost to be''.

Plasma has its motion problems to. According hdtvtest with nearly all Plasma's they have tested smooth gradients can break into contours during very stressful motion.
That is because they use moving dither patterns, there is a lot not to like about how useless the user options on plasmas are given how they actually work
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post #357 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 09:13 AM
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My plasma bias is based on nothing other than reality.
Perfectly put.
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post #358 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 09:22 AM
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agree but that is why i said ''not how it suppost to be''.

Plasma has its motion problems to. According hdtvtest with nearly all Plasma's they have tested smooth gradients can break into contours during very stressful motion.
This is more an issue with samsung and LG. You'd be hard pressed to demonstrate this behavior on a panasonic without 'pixel peeping'. I'd still gladly take this over what I see on LCD-- my test is to pop in mw2 on my xbox 360, turn my sensitivity up and hold the stick left or right. With an LCD in game mode (all the motion processing off) things get messy fast.
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post #359 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 09:33 AM
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This is more an issue with samsung and LG. You'd be hard pressed to demonstrate this behavior on a panasonic without 'pixel peeping'. I'd still gladly take this over what I see on LCD-- my test is to pop in mw2 on my xbox 360, turn my sensitivity up and hold the stick left or right. With an LCD in game mode (all the motion processing off) things get messy fast.

I see this very easily on Zt60's and VT50's from 14ft away when watching 24p content in either the 48hz or 96hz modes. No pixel peeping necessary - that's something I don't do. I also see the phosphor trails, but I'm not annoyed by them, only the motion issue. Especially dislike it when I see the edge of someone's face start to fall apart. In 60hz mode there's enough blur where I don't see it, but then I'm annoyed by the extra blur.
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post #360 of 599 Old 08-20-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
I see this very easily on Zt60's and VT50's from 14ft away when watching 24p content in either the 48hz or 96hz modes. No pixel peeping necessary - that's something I don't do. I also see the phosphor trails, but I'm not annoyed by them, only the motion issue. Especially dislike it when I see the edge of someone's face start to fall apart. In 60hz mode there's enough blur where I don't see it, but then I'm annoyed by the extra blur.
What's interesting is I don't see phosphor trails or even the rainbows on the DLP. But I can spot an overdriven LCD panel from a mile away. I guess this goes to show that everyone sees things differently.
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