Emissive HDTVs Beat Transmissive UHDTVs in Value Electronics 2014 Shootout - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by THX1720 View Post
Unless the actor is standing in your room you have no idea what their skin really looks like...
Exactly, plus you have to factor in makeup and lighting. I really can't begin to fathom some of the comments here. Oh and I forgot to add color choices. In films color timed to give everything a teal look, skin tones are orange, with the first transformers bing an obvious example. Most people who don't use skin bronzers don't have orange skin but if that is what the director intended, that is what you set should deliver.

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Old 08-21-2014, 10:52 AM
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At the shootout, I noticed how obvious the dimming zones are on larger LCD UHDTVs. Based on my experience with the FALD (full-array local dimming) on Sharp's Elite and Vizio's P-series LCDs, I thought the current crop of UHDTVs would offer some tangible improvement over the flashlighting artifacts that plague edgelit designs. Instead, I witnessed obvious halo artifacts and pulsating shadows, even on the most expensive UHDTVs at the shootout. To my eyes, it was apparent that the FALD UHDTVs do not have backlit arrays with enough dimming zones to produce a plasma- or OLED-like image, one that is free of flashlighting and halo artifacts.
This is very useful to know. Great write-up as per usual, Mark!
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
To add to the examples I've mentioned above, here's another example. Some TVs have skin color controls. In my experience, they are not very useful, but why are they there at all?
Because of historical reasons, relating to NTSC broadcast.

As Joe Kane reminded us at the shootout, there is no need for a tint/skin tone/whatever control in a Component video system at all (and I would assume the same goes for composite PAL in the areas where that's still in use). It's there because it's something to put in the menu. "Honey, we should get this one, it has a flesh tone control".

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Old 08-21-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by THX1720 View Post
Unless the actor is standing in your room you have no idea what their skin really looks like...
What the actor's skin actually looks like is not what matters. It should look like a real person's skin, unless there is some artistic reason for departing from that. What factors are involved in what the skin turns out to look like on screen are complicated, no doubt. But whatever makeup or lighting is involved in making skin look like skin, we viewers are the judges of whether it works. Does the skin look like skin? We can tell.

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Old 08-21-2014, 11:33 AM
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^^^

time to move on please
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please take the high road in every post
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
.


The two winners, the PN64F8500 (top right) and the 55EC93000 (bottom right), also had the widest viewing angles.
is it just the picture of were some sets having uniformity issues with red? If so, is that typical with LCD sets?
Thanks
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
is it just the picture of were some sets having uniformity issues with red? If so, is that typical with LCD sets?
Thanks
You can definitely see that the two LCDS in that picture have uniformity issues.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lyris View Post
Yes there is - sample and hold. If that point isn't somehow addressed, you'll get low motion resolution.
There is a thread on AVS devoted to sample and hold as it relates to OLED. Sony OLED monitors do a better job with motion resolution than the LG OLED. The point is OLED technology is very capable of producing a display with good motion resolution but, yes of course, it needs to be addressed. Some vendors will choose to do more to improve that parameter while others will focus on other parameters.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
What the actor's skin actually looks like is not what matters. It should look like a real person's skin, unless there is some artistic reason for departing from that. What factors are involved in what the skin turns out to look like on screen are complicated, no doubt. But whatever makeup or lighting is involved in making skin look like skin, we viewers are the judges of whether it works. Does the skin look like skin? We can tell.

These debates will just never die.


It should be extremely simple:


The goal of calibration is to ensure that you are seeing what is being sent to your display exactly as it exists on the media being viewed. It has nothing to do with achieving real-life images for all content. It has everything to do with achieving accuracy to a standard that all professional studios adhere to.


If you desire all of your content to look like real life, you'll be constantly altering settings for everything that you view. Besides, most of you see on TV isn't supposed to look like real life to begin with.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
There is a thread on AVS devoted to sample and hold as it relates to OLED. Sony OLED monitors do a better job with motion resolution than the LG OLED. The point is OLED technology is very capable of producing a display with good motion resolution but, yes of course, it needs to be addressed. Some vendors will choose to do more to improve that parameter while others will focus on other parameters.
Yes, the Sony OELD has some sort of scanning. I'm guessing that info is duplicated in the thread you just discussed.

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Old 08-21-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by XPSTester View Post
It really makes me smile when people say: "plasma is dead".

I bought my Kuro when it was declared the best out there and kept it since because I DID NOT FIND YET a better set in all aspects:
- LIFELIKE picture (as watching life through a clean window)
- STUNNING UPSCALING: we watch plenty of TV sent in in only 720p and plenty of YouTube videos ranging from 360p to 1080p. They all look SO MUCH BETTER on my Kuro than on my Dell Ultrasharp monitor (the FHD that followed did not have as good SD upscaling!!!)
- we watch the TV during the day (we got TON of windows) and night always with some background lights.
- the Panasonic plasma, despite buying some of Pioneer patents, NEVER, until ZT60 has any good upscalling (tested few weeks ago)

So after over 6 years since I own the set, my wife and I we agreed to keep this (built like a tank) set till it completely dies!

When I recently compared Panasonic, Samsung and Sony best TVs, surprisingly to me though, I found the MOST LIFELIKE looking TV that I would proudly take home was the Sony XBR65X950B!!!

I am positive if that TV was put near the 55" OLEDs and the 64" plasma, the appreciation of that 65" set would have been higher!!!

ANY set (lcd, plasma or oled) when blown to huge sizes such as 79" or more is so much easier target for the human eye to spot imperfections on TEST MATERIAL.

I challenge people to spot the differences in a BLIND TEST while watching some TVstations, nature programing or regular movies (forget the Harry Potter one scene! OK
Imperfections = reality. It is just showing what was actually filmed...warts and all. If you don't want to see the make-up when not perfect on an actor or anchor, or razor stubble, then by all means buy a smaller set. But nothing inherent in a 1080i or 1080p signal that is degraded when going from 50" to 64" and most likely to 77". Am I wrong in this statement?

In that vein, what is the largest screen you can have before 1080i or 1080p signal is not sufficient? I would think an apt analogy could be made to size of a photo allowable given the number of megapixels in the camera.

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Old 08-21-2014, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post
Imperfections = reality. It is just showing what was actually filmed...warts and all. If you don't want to see the make-up when not perfect on an actor or anchor, or razor stubble, then by all means buy a smaller set. But nothing inherent in a 1080i or 1080p signal that is degraded when going from 50" to 64" and most likely to 77". Am I wrong in this statement?

In that vein, what is the largest screen you can have before 1080i or 1080p signal is not sufficient? I would think an apt analogy could be made to size of a photo allowable given the number of megapixels in the camera.
Digital IMAX movie theaters are still only 2K. The answer is any screen size you like, since viewing distance is always a part of the equation.

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Old 08-21-2014, 01:39 PM
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"...DeWayne Davis (D-Nice) said that his five Pioneer Kuros remain unbeaten in terms of image quality..."

I also have 5 pioneer Kuros ... although not nearly as well calibrated
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You know, it took a few years before anything that could even compete with a Kuro showed up. Given the fact you can still buy plamsa TVs right now, it's still relevant. You can even buy a ZT60 if you don't mind paying a huge premium for the honor.

Here's food for thought... I picked my PN64F8500 up for $2000. Is there any other TV that you can buy today that offer as much picture quality and screen size per dollar? The key is the fact that you won't be able to buy an F8500 for much longer. While I do look forward to LGs UHD OLEDs, the F8500 represents an opportunity to buy a truly world-class TV at a ridiculously low price, if you compare what it can do to current OLED and LCD offerings. I wouldn't be surprised if at this time next year NIB F8500s sell for what NIB VT/ZT60s sell for today.
I can buy a 50VT60 which equals KRP 500M PQ for €1400 - €1800 right now. I have been thinking about it for some time. Very tempting..
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Here's a shot during the Harry Potter clip. It's a worst-case scenario of dark room viewing angle mayhem.


This picture says a great deal.


I believe that is the F8500 plasma at the top and the Samsung and then LG OLEDs at the bottom correct? All have true black letterbox bars (even off-angle).


I assume the curved screen in the middle left with blue letterbox bars is the Samsung HU9000, correct? It is off angle and so probably looks more black than blue from head-on, but that kind of off-angle shift in black color and brightness would be a show-stopper for me (even if only off-angle).


What is the screen in the middle-right? LCD for sure, but is that the Samsung UN8550, the LG 9800, or the Sony X950B?


If available, it would be great to see how the other LCDs in general, and the Sony X950B in particular, displayed the same scene.


Assuming the F8500 is displaying the most accurate colors, the color shift from the Samsung off-axis is pretty apparent...
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:23 PM
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I have a F150 60 " Kuro in my family room and a 55" Samsung Smart LCD Tv in my bedroom. My Kuro beats the Samsung hands down. Having said that I like both sets as I'm not as nit picky as many on this board. My next set will probably be an OLED as I prefer emissive displays. Just hope OLED takes off and prices come down. I'm probably one of the few that would prefer a 21:9 ratio set to the 16:9 set.
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
is it just the picture of were some sets having uniformity issues with red? If so, is that typical with LCD sets?
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You can definitely see that the two LCDS in that picture have uniformity issues.
They did indeed. At those screen sizes it would be passing strange for an LCD not to have at least some uniformity issues. Some technologies just don't scale as easily/well as others.
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:26 PM
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But rogo, since everyone already owns a flat panel, buying a new one is predicated on replacing one's current TV.
So a comparison of the TVs we CAN BUY - e.g. the LCDS - to the current TVs we own is extremely relevant.
There's an awful lot of navel gazing. You couldn't give me a Kuro. Or a Sharp Elite for that matter. Either would be useless in my house.

The problem I have with these discussions is that many of them presume a choice we have today is to be compared against some other choice that no one has had for several years. If someone has a TV they love and they are on the fence about buying a new one, the answer is really simple: Don't buy one. Your TV is something that gives you joy. If you are here telling us about how you think maybe God's gift to TV isn't cutting it and maybe God's newer gift might be better, but you're pretty sure God's older gift is still better, well that's just a lot of A/V you-know-what. It's probably better kept in private.
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For the great many plasma owners, these LCD shoot-outs with plasmas are informative about the state of LCD vs plasma. Especially if you know you have a higher end plasma - and enthusiast forums like this tend to be populated by people who wanted to buy the better performers - controlled comparisons like these help the plasma owner in deciding whether to hang on to his current display, or whether there is something better now available in LCD to tempt him to upgrade.
There is no upgrade, unless you want a brighter image (in all senses of brighter... daylight viewing, ABL effects, etc.) or a bigger screen. Isn't that clear by now? Does it take 500 posts of the same nonsense? I mean the VE results speak for themselves.
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I don't see how this could be irrelevant, especially in a forum like this one, in which we gather not only to decide on our "next TV" but to also share information about AV technology.
Well, as someone who writes both professionally and casually, I can tell you that making the same point for the 500th time causes it to lose impact. In fact, it causes it to have negative impact. I want to hear D-Nice talk about his obsolete, half-decade-old Kuros about as much as I want to hear my uncle talk about those British speakers he bought back in college... I mean would anyone seriously acquire either Kuro when you can get an LG OLED for $3500? If so, there is probably mental-health help waiting for you.

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At the shootout, I noticed how obvious the dimming zones are on larger LCD UHDTVs. Based on my experience with the FALD (full-array local dimming) on Sharp's Elite and Vizio's P-series LCDs, I thought the current crop of UHDTVs would offer some tangible improvement over the flashlighting artifacts that plague edgelit designs. Instead, I witnessed obvious halo artifacts and pulsating shadows, even on the most expensive UHDTVs at the shootout. To my eyes, it was apparent that the FALD UHDTVs do not have backlit arrays with enough dimming zones to produce a plasma- or OLED-like image, one that is free of flashlighting and halo artifacts.
It's important to mention -- and I didn't see it in the thread though it might be here -- that there was no P-series Vizio at the shootout. Drawing conclusions about it based on a CES viewing (or other early viewing) when its launch is still yet to come -- albeit soon -- seems premature. It may be no improvement whatsoever in the state of the art. But we'll know in due time. Let's wait and see, yes?
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gunhed View Post
"...DeWayne Davis (D-Nice) said that his five Pioneer Kuros remain unbeaten in terms of image quality..."

I also have 5 pioneer Kuros ... although not nearly as well calibrated
Right, I heard him say that in the HDTV shootout stream. I know he loves the Kuro, but as he states the Samsung F8500 is just a whisper less in quality, you would think he would have at least one larger set....after all, the Kuro is "only" 50". Perhaps size not of concern?
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:59 PM
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Right, I heard him say that in the HDTV shootout stream. I know he loves the Kuro, but as he states the Samsung F8500 is just a whisper less in quality, you would think he would have at least one larger set....after all, the Kuro is "only" 50". Perhaps size not of concern?
Hi the Kuro is either 42, 50 or 60 inch but the best 2 models are 50 inch.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:15 PM
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The problem is that everything is a matter of compromise. Sure, plasma and OLED have better image quality, but 65" is just not big enough anymore for many people including myself. In the mean time, modern LED/LCD picture quality is more than just "pretty good", and you can pick up the latest 84" LG or 85" Samsung 4K sets for between $8K and $9K. If I'm going to watch sports or movies, it has to be on something in that size range. Like (almost) everyone else, I love the superior PQ of OLED. But until OLED sets are marketed in the 80"+ size category for under $10K, IMO it is a non-factor.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
There's an awful lot of navel gazing. You couldn't give me a Kuro. Or a Sharp Elite for that matter. Either would be useless in my house.

The problem I have with these discussions is that many of them presume a choice we have today is to be compared against some other choice that no one has had for several years. If someone has a TV they love and they are on the fence about buying a new one, the answer is really simple: Don't buy one. Your TV is something that gives you joy. If you are here telling us about how you think maybe God's gift to TV isn't cutting it and maybe God's newer gift might be better, but you're pretty sure God's older gift is still better, well that's just a lot of A/V you-know-what. It's probably better kept in private.


There is no upgrade, unless you want a brighter image (in all senses of brighter... daylight viewing, ABL effects, etc.) or a bigger screen. Isn't that clear by now? Does it take 500 posts of the same nonsense? I mean the VE results speak for themselves.


Well, as someone who writes both professionally and casually, I can tell you that making the same point for the 500th time causes it to lose impact. In fact, it causes it to have negative impact. I want to hear D-Nice talk about his obsolete, half-decade-old Kuros about as much as I want to hear my uncle talk about those British speakers he bought back in college... I mean would anyone seriously acquire either Kuro when you can get an LG OLED for $3500? If so, there is probably mental-health help waiting for you.



It's important to mention -- and I didn't see it in the thread though it might be here -- that there was no P-series Vizio at the shootout. Drawing conclusions about it based on a CES viewing (or other early viewing) when its launch is still yet to come -- albeit soon -- seems premature. It may be no improvement whatsoever in the state of the art. But we'll know in due time. Let's wait and see, yes?
Well, the results of the HDTV shootout last weekend ended in a tie between the Samsung F8500 and the LG OLED. And many still prefer the Kuro to the Samsung. Are you totally disputing the results of the shootout?

Further, the LG OLED is curved, which most do not like, and costs more, although the disparity is less. Given that, however, speculation is that next year the Samsung Plasma will cost more than the LG OLED.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:27 PM
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Hi the Kuro is either 42, 50 or 60 inch but the best 2 models are 50 inch.
Ok. Thanks, was not aware of the larger size. Perhaps D-Nice has a 60" model in his collection. Seems like I recall that sources said that the Kuro had an inherent advantage in the shootout last year because it was "only" 50"; therefore, they had to somehow make adjustments to level the playing field.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:36 PM
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AFAIK it is time to move on. Time to fully support OLED and forget about Plasma.

I agree. Or said another way: 'Plasma is dead - long live OLED' :-)
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post
Ok. Thanks, was not aware of the larger size. Perhaps D-Nice has a 60" model in his collection. Seems like I recall that sources said that the Kuro had an inherent advantage in the shootout last year because it was "only" 50"; therefore, they had to somehow make adjustments to level the playing field.
As I recall, DeWayne can do the same tweaking on some of the later model 141's that he can do on the 500M.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:39 PM
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Appears the new upcoming OLED's will go from curved to flat at the touch of a button, making everybody happy?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/06/l...urved-oled-tv/
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:42 PM
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All this talk doesn't take the fact that Plasma and oled offer the best picture quality, I knew that this thread was going to hurt some people's feelings.


Emissive display is a better tech than transmissive display ,like or not. You can put whatever you want behind the LCD layer its been proven that it will still fail to give the best picture quality.




Now bring me oled you will be welcome to my home.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:43 PM
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LG, the manufacture of the co-winning OLED display, still makes a plasma TV and as far as I know have not announced it's end of life. Assuming they still make it in 2015 it will be the best new plasma on the planet.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Why is there such a fervor from some members to see plasma dead and buried? Where does that come from? Don't they understand that competition breeds innovation and excellence? Plasma disappearing from the market is a bad sign for TV in general-- especially LCD. One can only hope that OLED sees continued development.

I agree with everything you have said regarding the value of competition and how unfortunate it is that Samsung is pulling out of plasma like Panasonic did a year ago.


Having both of those manufacturers continue to offer plasma (even without investing in further improvements to the technology) would have made me (and most others, I suspect) happy.


So I think you are misreading this 'fervor' to see plasma dead and buried. The reality is that plasma is dying and will be gone soon, and this means anyone buying into plasma now is buying into a dead technology with no future. There is nothing more to it than being aware of and understanding that reality (at least for me :-).


OLED faces many daunting challenges before it reaches a long-term sustainable position in the marketplace, but OLED has much more of a future than plasma. Right now today, those are the facts.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:11 PM
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^ Rich: The same argument applies to LCD owners. I have a 70" Sharp Elite and none of the LCDs in the shootout had as good numbers as it does. (Cyan is not an issue fro me: my Lumagen Radiance fixed that easily.) If other LCD owners have a 4-6 year old set, the new ones could easily provide a significant improvement even if they are second rate to the last remaining plasma and OLED. My conclusion from the shootout confirmed what I was already thinking; the 77" OLED is the only possible replacement at this point. How it performs in the real world will determine if this is true. Hopefully waiting.

I know they were different shootouts, but if you have then, it would be interesting to compare the scores of the Elite to the Sony X950B (the best of the LED/LCDs in the shootout) to see where the Sony underperformed versus the Elite.
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