on the issue of flags:HDCP - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 321 Old 01-05-2003, 12:53 PM
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Mark,

Great post. My oh my, busy little beavers aren't they. If all this comes to fruition and they down rez, make me purchase a license (for something I already purchased) to use my equipment or watch a movie then I say:

I for one will not succumb to their "GREEDINESS". If that means no more Home Theater, then so be it. There is so many more important things in life anyways. I think that anybody that goes out and buys all this new equipment or whatever is needed is a fool. I have already invested a considerable amount of money for Home Theater- Fool Me Once Shame On You- Fool Me Twice Shame On Me. I will not give Hollywood any more of my hard earned money, nor buy any additional A/V Components since the manufactures did not have the BALLS to stand up and tell Hollywood to go to HELL.

And I hope you will remember this the next time you go and vote for a politician who is/was a lawyer and a millionaire that says I want to represent the AVERAGE AMERICAN. Money talks and B...S... walks.

Dave

"Appeasment only makes the Aggressor more Aggressive"
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post #92 of 321 Old 01-05-2003, 06:02 PM
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Dave,

I admire & respect your position. I would like to think that both you & I could stand by those convictions, no matter what. But alas, even if that were true, I'm afraid that we would be in the minority, hardly a blip on the radar of the armada we face.

Chucko
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post #93 of 321 Old 01-06-2003, 06:37 PM
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Hi All,

I have been really enjoying these forums for a few weeks and pulled the trigger on a Panny SD 42" plasma. I love it, but I'm wondering if the HD down-rezzing will take signals down below my best resolution? Is the SD Panny's max resolution 480p, or somewhere above that and below 720p or 1080i? I know it does it's own down-rezzing on higher rez inputs, but is the native resolution better than 480p? I'm about to pull the trigger on a massive DirecTV, HDVR2, OTA HDTV system and am concerned.

John
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post #94 of 321 Old 01-06-2003, 06:41 PM
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I agree with Alan on this PPV stuff. In my neighborhood a PPV movie on DirecTV costs about the same as Hollywood video rents a DVD for 5 DAYS, and does not get released any sooner. In terms of convenience there is no comparison, (try stopping a PPV to long enough to fetch a cold bottle of Budweiser.) Since the Chinese are great hackers and do almost all the copying anyway, (and WON'T follow our laws, no matter what we threaten them with), this HDCP stuff is all a joke !! - HD movies in any form WILL be copied. IMHO, the real battleground for DVI-HDCP "down-rezzed" content will be for HD-DVD players in 2-3 years. If these don't offer analog component video outputs, then the class action lawsuit will be joined, and Hollywood will buy all us early adopters brand new DVI-HDCP compatible displays, (make mine a Sharp XV-Z10000U).

Vision without Action is daydreaming,
Action without Vision is a nightmare !!
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post #95 of 321 Old 01-06-2003, 07:30 PM
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Here's my prediction for the next few years.
I think EVERYONE out there who bought dvi/hdcp or not will still be
very happy with their purchase. Nothing is set in stone yet and nothing
will happen over night. When DVD first came out people said it was hard or impossible to copy them, look at it now!! There's always innovation to accommodate the changing technology! I bought a panasonic superflat
tv 4 years ago and I'm still a happy camper. I'm not going to be paranoid
and wait 1-2 years for a standard that may or may not happen. There's going to be a whole lot of debate before it's set in stone. 6 months is not going to change anything!!
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post #96 of 321 Old 01-06-2003, 08:42 PM
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Dust,

Go forward with your plans. The Panny SD is 480p no matter what you do. Its one of the reasons so many of us think DVDs look so good with a Progressive player- 480p to 480p. Its a natural.

dcbingaman,

One other thing that people are forgetting about is HAV-i (5c/Firewire). But I guess this will be the new DVI-HDCP Thread in about a year or so after everybody has spent all their money trying to comply with DVI-HDCP. Go figure.

kqnjml,

I will keep my legs, eyes and fingers crossed that calmer heads will prevail.

Dave

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post #97 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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some good news on the CP front

from the New York Times 7 Jan 03



Norwegian Teen Acquitted in DVD Case
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


Filed at 7:58 a.m. ET

OSLO, Norway (AP) -- A Norwegian teenager was acquitted in a key test case Tuesday of violating computer break-in laws with his program that circumvents security codes on Hollywood's DVD movies.

Jon Lech Johansen was 15 when he developed and posted his program, called DeCSS, on the Internet in late 1999, enraging the film industry because it feared the software would allow illegal copying of its films.

The three-member Oslo City Court found Johansen, now 19 and a household name as DVD-Jon in Norway, innocent on all counts in a unanimous 25-page ruling in the latest setback for the film industry's drive to prevent film copying.

``I'm very satisfied. We won support on all points. I had figured that we could win, but it can go either way,'' said Johansen after the verdict was read out.

The prosecution said it would decide in the next two weeks whether to appeal. Johansen said he expects another round because this is the first such case in Norway.

``But clearly, winning the first round means a lot,'' said Johansen after the verdict.

Prosecutors had called for a 90-day suspended jail sentence, confiscation of computer equipment and court costs, all of which were rejected in the ruling.

Johansen became a folk hero to hackers, especially in the United States, where a battle still rages over a 1998 copyright law that bans software like DeCSS.

The film industry developed the Content Scrambling System to encrypt and prevent illegal copying of DVD films. However, the system, usually called CSS, also prevents DVD films from being played on unauthorized equipment.

Johansen's program, which pieces together security codes and other programs sent to him by fellow hackers, breaks the CSS barrier, allowing films to be played and copied on computers.

The short program is one of many readily available programs that can break DVD security codes.

In January 2000, the U.S. Motion Picture Association and the DVD Copy Control Association filed a complaint with the Norwegian economic crime police against Johansen.

Prosecutors later charged Johansen under Norway's data break-in laws and for being an accessory to others making illegal copies of films by posting his program on the Internet.

Johansen had claimed he posted the program for others to test it.

Head judge Irene Sogn, in reading the verdict, said no one could be convicted of breaking into their own property, and that there was no proof that Johansen or others had used the program to access illegal pirate copies of films.

``The court finds that someone who buys a DVD film that has been legally produced has legal access the film. Something else would apply if the film had been an illegal ... pirate copy,'' the ruling said.

It found that consumers have rights to legally obtained DVD films ``even if the films are played in a different way than the makers had foreseen.''

Johansen said that was the key part of the ruling.

``As long as you have purchased a DVD legally then you are allowed to decode it with any equipment, and can't be forced to buy any specific equipment,'' he said.

end--------------


note especially the judge said "no one can be convicted of breaking into their own property..."

Mark

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post #98 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by markrubin


note especially the judge said "no one can be convicted of breaking into their own property..."

Mark

Hmm... more deep thinking.

You know, I'm realizing that Hollywood wants movies to be just like software. When you go purchase a copy of Microsoft Office, you don't "own" it... you are purchasing a "liscense" to use it. That's why
you have this big ass liscensing agreement that basically sums up what you
can and can not do with the software. They usually read "You can make a copy only for backup purposes, but if the software gets loaded on more than one machine then we ownz joo, joo goin' to jail."

DVD's usually have a copyright notice that merely says "Don't make
ILLEGAL copies of this disk, or you will potentially get $100,000 fine or
3 years in jail." All these court cases are going WAY beyond that
copyright notice mandate.

My gosh, I never thought Hollywood would be more anal than Bill Gates,
but that's what it seems like is the case.

Man, I want to have fun like Hollywood. I think I'm going to write a book
just so that I can sue people when I find illegal copies in China. Heh heh...
I have a pretty good voice too. Maybe someone will put my song on napster and I can get in on that big lawsuit. MILLIONS COMING MY WAY!! WOOT.

Dreamaster
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post #99 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 08:10 AM
 
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Even if my plasma display is not HDCP compatible, as long as my set top box is compatible do I still have a problem? Does HDCP require me to use DVI connections all the way thru to the display? Sorry if this is a dumb question...
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post #100 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Dreamaster

apropos of your comments- check out this one

New York Times 7 Jan 03:

Microsoft Moves to Strengthen Its Position in Digital Media
By AMY HARMON


In a bid to secure a central place for itself in the new gadgets that are increasingly the preferred platform for digital media, Microsoft said yesterday that it would license its Windows Media technology to consumer electronics makers at lower prices and better terms than its main competitors do.

Makers of digital music players, for instance, can now license Microsoft's media encoding and decoding technologies for 50 cents for each device, about half of the licensing fee many now pay for MPEG 4 video, one of the dominant industry standard format.



Will Poole, corporate vice president of Microsoft's Windows New Media Platform division, said the company's goal was not to reap huge profit on the royalties but to ensure that PC's that run the Windows operating system work well with devices like camcorders, DVD players and portable media players that consumers want to use with them.

"Strategically, what we get from this is that the consumer will have a better experience with compatibility with all these devices," Mr. Poole said.

Analysts said the deal was likely to be attractive to consumer electronics makers. "They've come up with a licensing program that is bound to shock the industry in the first hours of the Consumer Electronics Show," said Richard Doherty, research director for the Envisioneering Group, a technology market research firm in Seaford, N.Y., referring to the annual trade show that opens this week in Las Vegas.

Mr. Doherty said the reasons for Microsoft's move would be clear in the devices being shown at the show: PC's with media playback functions sell for about $1,500, while stand-alone devices that cannot process a spreadsheet but can play music and video cost far less.

The more prevalent its playback and security technology is on consumer electronics devices, the better position Microsoft is in when it tries to sell its technology — and Windows operating systems — to media companies that want to deliver material to consumers in digital form.

END_______________

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post #101 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by straymutt
Even if my plasma display is not HDCP compatible, as long as my set top box is compatible do I still have a problem? Does HDCP require me to use DVI connections all the way thru to the display? Sorry if this is a dumb question...
Yes you still have the problem: your DISPLAY must also be HDCP compatible, so even if your display has a DVI connector, if it is not DVI-HDCP it will not work as Hollywood intended.

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post #102 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 09:55 AM
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Mark,

My question is- since this is not here in the States, how or will this affect us in our CP struggles?

Dave

"Appeasment only makes the Aggressor more Aggressive"
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post #103 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 10:15 AM
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I have followed this discussion with extreme interest.
Where is it carved in stone that HDCP will ultimately use DVI? In point of fact the FCC agreement spells out Firewire as its means of HDCP. Whoever pointed out that next year this debate could be about whether your programs would be downrezzed if your plasma wasn't compliant with Firewire.
The content providers are going to shoot themselves in the foot no matter what technology provides for content protection. The lesson of Napster wasn't sufficient. CD sales were actually promoted by "free" auditions of the content not the opposite.
As a consumer, the best wisdom seems to have two distinct paths. Either become an early adopter and enjoy it now bcause the jackasses will never (at least for a long time) figure out that strangling the goose will never get themthe golden eggs or wait until the trend becomes clear(er.)
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post #104 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by cheridave
Mark,

My question is- since this is not here in the States, how or will this affect us in our CP struggles?

Dave
I don't know that it will help us but I like the way it was handled - with fairness and logic

Mark

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post #105 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 12:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by markrubin
Yes you still have the problem: your DISPLAY must also be HDCP compatible, so even if your display has a DVI connector, if it is not DVI-HDCP it will not work as Hollywood intended.
Thanks for the info. Since this topic was opened as a "buyer beware" to the uninformed, I'm going to risk one more dumb question. Both the Pio and the Panny 5UY models have an available DVI card. Neither are currently HDCP compatible. There's rumor of 3rd party cards for the Pio that will have HDCP but not for the Panny. Also the current Panny card is DVI but no component. Am I right so far? Ok... My question is - is there anything inherent in the Panny display that would prevent a DVI-HDCP card in the future?
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post #106 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lcrim
Where is it carved in stone that HDCP will ultimately use DVI? In point of fact the FCC agreement spells out Firewire as its means of HDCP.]
I believe that you're mistaken. I scanned that agreement, and what I noticed was that it required that all DTVs have DVI/HDCP or HDMI connections by the end of a certain period. It does not require that they have Firewire (1394/DTCP) connections at all. (The original HDCP license agreement required that receiving devices not have any kind of output--this would preclude the inclusion of Firewire, it being an isochronous interconnect, capable of equal speed input and output).

HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Copy Protection) is a protocol standard designed around DVI--the content that it protects is the raw digital video raster (what you get when you fully decode the compressed MPEG2 data stream that is digital television). DTCP (Digital Transmission Content Protection) was designed around interfaces like 1394 (but is not specific to it) and protects the MPEG2 itself. The metal firewire that DTCP has been implemented in thus far has a bandwidth of 200 Mbps, which is fine for the compressed data: you could simultaneously move multiple MPEG streams through a home network over 1394. DVI, on the other hand, has a bandwidth of 5 Gbps--about 25 times that of the 1394 being used in AV devices. I believe that a decoded 1080i raster (assuming 30-bit color) requires a bit over 1.7 Gbps.
.
The reason that the MPAA likes DVI/HDCP is that, even if it is hacked, what you get is a stream of data whose sheer volume would be impossible to deal with using consumer priced equipment, today (though how long this will be true is anyone's guess).

None of these protection schemes is intended to prevent the determined professional from copying protected content--their developers openly admit that. They're meant to make it very hard for casual, not-for-profit hackers with much more limited budgets to copy protected content into files and post them for download on the net, ala BearShare, KaZaA, et al, or even just to share them with their friends.

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post #107 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 03:48 PM
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Does a DVI-HDCP compliant monitor _require_ HDCP input?

I want to buy an HDTV set with DVI connector primarily to be able to use it with my computer (DVI digital output or VGA->DVI-I adapter).

Looking at the Sony KV-34XBR800 tube tv the other day, their manual specifies that the DVI input is "not intended" for use with computers. Is this an HDCP issue, or is it just an issue with display settings/configuration for HD modes? (ie, 720p rather than XGA or WXGA)

I'm wondering if they would disallow non HDCP input because it would allow the viewing, even if not capture, of unlicensed material.

thanks
Doug
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post #108 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 04:08 PM
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Doug --

It is a display settings/configuration issue. The 34XBR800 has the opposite problem of the Pioneer 503/433/Pro 800/1000 family that have the 5002 cards. The XBR will work fine with DVI/HDCP STBs but not with computer monitors. the 5002 DVI connection works for computers but lacks the HDTV video timings (and HDCP!) to work as a HDTV monitor.

straymutt --

The difference between the Pios and the Pannys is that Pioneer supports 3rd party card development and Panasonic does not. Could Panasonic design a DVI/HDCP-compatible card? Probably. Will they? Most probably not.

-- Gary
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post #109 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 04:33 PM
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Gary -

(thanks for replying)

I've found HDTV standard mode settings online for vga cards, presumably for use with powerstrip or some other custom-mode utility:

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Sup...ffnotes_17.htm

Is this enough (provided the vga card can do it) to use the Sony tv (or any dvi set), or have I misunderstood you?

Sorry for tangenting off topic here.

Doug
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post #110 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 06:15 PM
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Very interesting discussion here, wish I would have read it 2 weeks ago when I bought my new Toshiba 50H82. This set does not have a DVI input, does anybody know if Toshiba will offer a module or "upgrade" of some kind to current owners without DVI inputs when HDCP becomes the standard?
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post #111 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 06:37 PM
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It would be hard to design an upgrade to support of DVI/HDCP which would past the tamper-proof "robustness" requirement of the HDCP license agreement. After all, such an upgrade module would have a DVI/HDCP connection on one end and some way to pass decrypted raster data out of the other--how could you prevent someone from externally powering such a module and using it to defeat HDCP?

Evidently, Mitsubishi's upcoming "Promise Module", which is not user-installable, satisfies the equivalent requirements in the DTCP agreement. Their TVs, however, were designed for it.

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post #112 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 07:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaeltscott
It would be hard to design an upgrade to support of DVI/HDCP which would past the tamper-proof "robustness" requirement of the HDCP license agreement.
And if that's the case, wouldn't the same be true of any OEM or after-market card for any of the current plasma displays? If I understand what you're saying correctly, if it's user installable or, more to the point, user uninstallable, it won't fly. So if the display you buy today is not HDCP compatible today, don't count on any upgrade path. Would that be a correct statement?
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post #113 of 321 Old 01-07-2003, 11:30 PM
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Doug --

What Powerstrip does is create the output timings for all the various "legal" HDTV modes so that a HDTV monitor can be used with a computer, providing a larger desktop. I'm realy not sure if this applies to the DVI connection. I'm guessing it probably does.


-- Gary
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post #114 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 08:49 AM
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I'd really like to hear the answer to straymutt's question (2 posts above). From my perspective, he is leading this discussion in the most practical direction -- that is:

If a HDCP/DVI compliant input must be located in the display device, and if that input cannot be subject to manipulation by the consumer, then how can any existing display device be "upgraded" to include a compliant HDCP/DVI input?

In my case, I was about to pull the trigger and purchase the Pioneer 433 (over the Panasonic HD) because many on this forum have written that the Pioneer has an upgrade path and supports the creation of an new card which may give the display a HDCP/DVI compliant input. But if such a card is easily inserted into the display, then can't it just as easily taken out and manipulated by someone seeking to subvert the copy protection scheme?

If, in fact, the answer is that any HDCP/DVI compliant input must be installed during the initial construction of a display, then the Pioneer 433 (and most other displays) will never be able to have an HDCP/DVI input.

I'm sure there's someone on this forum who can address this issue. Thanks in advance.
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post #115 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 11:14 AM
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Don't know about the plasmas, but Pioneer apparently put in a triple-whammy protection circuit on its DVI/HDCP-enabled x30 series RPTVs. If you go in through the back or do something else not kosher, the unit disables itself and can only be reset by qualified service personnel (or someone that paid up the $25 for the service manual<g>!). FYI

Austin

Quote:
Originally posted by Marshall88
I'd really like to hear the answer to straymutt's question (2 posts above). From my perspective, he is leading this discussion in the most practical direction -- that is:

If a HDCP/DVI compliant input must be located in the display device, and if that input cannot be subject to manipulation by the consumer, then how can any existing display device be "upgraded" to include a compliant HDCP/DVI input?

In my case, I was about to pull the trigger and purchase the Pioneer 433 (over the Panasonic HD) because many on this forum have written that the Pioneer has an upgrade path and supports the creation of an new card which may give the display a HDCP/DVI compliant input. But if such a card is easily inserted into the display, then can't it just as easily taken out and manipulated by someone seeking to subvert the copy protection scheme?

If, in fact, the answer is that any HDCP/DVI compliant input must be installed during the initial construction of a display, then the Pioneer 433 (and most other displays) will never be able to have an HDCP/DVI input.

I'm sure there's someone on this forum who can address this issue. Thanks in advance.
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post #116 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 11:34 AM
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The draft documents of the cable agreement are here (in a Acrobat PDF file encapsulating scanned images of pages, which therefore cannot be searched--jerks :rolleyes: ). On PDF-absolute-page 67, it begins going through the robustness rules for DFAST, the standardized headend-to-STB content protection method, which uses point-of-deployment (POD) cards, like DirectTV and Echostar STBs, but is a much harder to defeat system, since it is an active two-way protocol. The rules for HDCP and DTCP are very similar (the specific rules for HDCP start at PDF-absolute-page 42 of this document).

The only way that I can see to upgrade to DVI or HDMI with HDCP (DVI|HDMI/HDCP) would require that the device be designed for the upgrade. A plug-and-play DVI|HDMI/HDCP module would have to have a secure interface to the upgraded system, using a protocol at least as secure as HDCP--in this case, what comes out of the upgrade card wouldn't be any more useful than what you could read off the DVI connection. If the internal handling of the decrypted video is compliant with the HDCP "Robustness Rules", then I can't see where there would be a problem. I'm sure, though, that the security of the DTV-to-upgrade-module connection would have to satisfy the HDCP authorities.

It may be that some manufacturers have designed their DTVs to be upgradeable using this kind of secure upgrade-module connection as an interrim measure while agreement on this security stuff was being hashed out. They could have made the module have either DVI|HDMI/HDCP or 1394/DTCP connections--whichever was decided on (but not both, since the HDCP compliance rules for "presentation devices"--at the bottom of PDF-page 39 of this--would not allow the presence of a Firewire connection).

There is a possibility of an in-factory upgrade of the enclosure and electronics of DTV to add a robustness-compliant DVI|HDMI/HDCP interface. It would probably be expensive, but possibly worth it to owners of $5000+ sets. Whether the manufacturers will offer such upgrade programs is anyone's guess.

-- Mike Scott

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"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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post #117 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 11:47 AM
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In the subject USA Today article which lauds the upcoming debut of ESPN-HD, there is the following passage which while not all that thorough seems to say a whole lot about where the DVI-HDCP situation is heading. The passage is:

“Studios and networks, fearful that movies and series might end up being downloaded and traded online, are pushing hard for bulletproof copy protection. CBS parent Viacom believes so strongly in a protective technology called the broadcast flag, which would prevent the uploading of content onto the Internet, that it delivered an ultimatum to the FCC last month threatening to stop HDTV broadcasts if the flag isn't adopted by summer. Disney, parent of ABC, also filed similar concerns, though in less terse language. CEA's Shapiro says there's "a consensus that the broadcast flag makes sense, and I think government will enact it."â€

While this does not answer my question of whether a novice new user of HDTV like me will be affected because my Samsung 3098WHF tube monitor only uses component inputs and would be vulnerable to down-rezzing, what it does suggest is that Hollywood and its powerful lobby through the use of an ultimatum appear to have convinced the FCC and the CEA that DVI-HDCP is the way to go. Further, what it suggests is that general viewing of OTA HDTV is at risk and that if down-rezzing is implemented, the large majority of early adopters of HDTV could be deprived of all programming. I understand a need to protect PPV movies and special events from digital copying but I agree with many other commentators on this forum who don’t see any applicability for down-rezzing in general programming and sporting events.

That being said, I am offended that there could be any consideration of such a scheme. The CE industry and the US Government have put a huge amount of effort forth over many years to bring this technology out and upgrade national communications. It is patently absurd to now with the stroke of a pen take away all the progress that’s been made. Provided that the FCC promulgates rules providing for the adoption of a DVI-HDCP standard that dictates down-rezzing to be required on all HDTV STB “component video†outputs and “non-HDCP DVI†outputs, the investment of most early adopters will be lost as will the many tax dollars spent on the public’s behalf to bring HDTV to the masses. Not only will such a rule deprive me and many like me of the investment in an HD set-up, it will again place the technology out of the reach of the general public at least for another few years until the cost of a compliant monitor and STB come down to a reasonable level (i.e. well below the present $2.5-4k plus for a quality monitor, plasma or top end tube type). Frankly, why should the general public be required to try to figure out what the standards are and if they’re going to change? It is up to the government to make this work and we are paying tax to ensure that it does. What appears to be happening certainly does not fit this concept.

Now is the time to let the FCC and Congress know that such a broad use of DVI-HDCP is unfair and simply the wrong thing to do before rules are promulgated or laws are passed. I encourage all to let our government know how negative such a path would be! If not, this will undoubtedly end up in protracted litigation which may or may not protect our rights to fully use and enjoy the technological advances and equipment we have paid for.
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post #118 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 12:14 PM
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At the end of the first paragraph on PDF page 3 of of the draft cable agreement documents, it states:
Quote:
With the exception of unencrypted broadcast television, the proposed rules do not address down-resolution of programming. However, the lack of such a provision should not be construed as an indication that down-resolution should or should not be permitted, but rather that the Commission should resolve this issue.
So, the FCC is undecided as to whether they'll allow the content providers to use down-rezzing as a part of their attempt to close what they call "the analog hole".

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post #119 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hdspartan
Further, what it suggests is that general viewing of OTA HDTV is at risk and that if down-rezzing is implemented, the large majority of early adopters of HDTV could be deprived of all programming.
The "broadcast flag" is embedded information in the ATSC video stream to indicate the broadcaster's intention that a particular program not be copied over the Internet. It's full implementation would require laws forcing computer equipment and software makers to somehow detect this in files being transmitted over the net. IMHO it cannot work--you'd only need to run a program to apply some arbitrary hash function on the file, which would render the flag undetectable, transfer it and de-hash it on the other side.

CBS has been the biggest booster of US DTV from its inception--it's difficult to believe that they'd actually cease broadcasting programs in HD. Note that neither ABC or NBC is making any such threat.
Quote:
If not, this will undoubtedly end up in protracted litigation which may or may not protect our rights to fully use and enjoy the technological advances and equipment we have paid for.
Exactly who would be sued? The CE manufacturers? I believe that most of them put disclaimers in the documentation for their sets (if not on the cartons) stating that no standard for HD cable connection had been established and that your set would not necessarily be compliant with whatever came up. The broadcasters? They never promised that you could view their HD programming through analog connections and timeshifting of OTA DTV programming cannot be prohibited.

The FCC, before any DTV was broadcast in the US, assured the MPAA that technology to protect their digital IP would be developed. In response to this, a draft 1394/DTCP standard was proposed in February 1998 (US DTV broadcasting began in November of that year)--development of it must have started significantly before that. FCC Commissioner Susan Ness delivered this speech one year after DTV broadcasting began, which talks about the need for copy-protection. Interestingly, she states the following, in support of timeshifting PPV, which the draft cable agreement allows providers to disallow:
Quote:
But the family I described in my “pitch†wants to be able to view the programming of their choice regardless of what kind of electronics they own. If they want to “time shift†programming -- to record a show and view it later, to be able to record a pay-per-view movie and watch it later -- they should be able to do so. The Supreme Court has said as much and consumers have come to expect it.
So this stuff has been in the works all along. Of course, it wasn't very widely advertised.

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post #120 of 321 Old 01-08-2003, 07:35 PM
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I have a deposit down on a HLM507 with a DVI-HDCP connection. PDF states "This DVI HDTV interface is compatible with the next generation name, HDMI."

This part is good, but........How am I supposed to record HD if the only HD sets I've seen capable of this have D-VHS firewire connected to the sets or daisychained to a firewire satellite box.

http://www.scientificatlanta.com/news/02Dec03-1.htm
shows there Explorer 4200HD (for HD cable). I found this paragraph interesting:

The Explorer 4200HD home gateway will be able to display video at user selectable scan rates of 480i, 480P, 720P, or 1080i out of the HDTV outputs. In addition, the user will be able to stretch and zoom the video picture to maximize the viewable area on HDTV displays and scale HDTV video within the program guide. The Explorer 4200HD home gateway will be capable of simultaneously displaying an HD image while down-converting it to SD via the NTSC outputs. This will allow subscribers to output HD content to their VCRs in SD format. Plus, the Explorer 4200HD complies with the EIA-708 closed captioning specification. The new home gateway will include a USB port, an optional DVI HDTV digital interface with HDCP high-bandwidth digital content protection and an optional IEEE 1394 digital interface with 5C copy protection capability.

What I am curious about- Would I be able to purchase a recording device like a Firewire D-VHS and plug it in to this HD cable box to record an HD signal that I'm watching? Then play it back through the box and out on the DVI-HDCP TV? This would apply to satellite boxes or? STB's? is that the right abbrev.?

I've already told the salesman that I might have to cancel my order unless he or I or someone can find the facts out about legally recording content without an IEEE1394(firewire) TV.

I've asked and used search several times here about this and haven't seen anything factual one way or the other about whether this would work.

BTW, our local cable company (cox in OKC) is selling $499 HD cable boxes through local stores and it's the 3100hd or 3200hd which only outputs component, which I'm guessing I should wait on that for the moment. The sellers don't know anything about them. I'm gonna' call cox tommorrow and see if they will ever get the 4200hd model.
thanks for any help. I'd just like to be careful and know that this could be an option with this set in the future.
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