the JERSEY SHORE SHOOTOUT: Fujitsu Vs Pioneer - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 181 Old 01-23-2003, 11:19 PM
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Just picked up my 50" and HD200. Very excited, even more when I get hands on more HD source.

One thing I noticed, the fujitsu had a slight buzz (I didnt have audio) that seemed louder with brighter video. Is this normal?

Thanks to all on this forum - helped me pull the trigger after 2 mos of lurking. Now I've got the HD bug.

Ron
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post #92 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 04:05 AM
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Ron, I haven't noticed it on mine or Mark's. Considering how quiet the fans are, I would think I'd hear it if it were there.
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post #93 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken Ross and I met Cliff Plavin today: Cliff ISF calibrated both shootout displays

both needed adjustments: the Fujitsu was measured very hot out of the box ( 9929k on 480p input with 100 hours on it) ; the Pioneer was 6314k after 1784 hours: (Pioneer was last calibrated at approx 1000 hours, where it was essentially unchanged from initial calibration when new)

after both were ISF calibrated, my initial observations remain:

Fujitsu has better blacks
Fujitsu measured approx 11% brighter
Fujitsu has HDCP

most other comparisons were a draw: the Pioneer is an excellent display in most every aspect

most interesting was Cliff's acceptance of the new Fujitsu

details to follow- what an interesting day

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post #94 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 03:55 PM
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I want the new fuji now. What to do?

I promised myself that my next plasma should be at least in the 65" to 75" range. Getting a similar picture size is not what I want but the new fuji is tempting...

What do you think???
MAB
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post #95 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 04:28 PM
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My 2 cents:

MAB, How far back from the screen is your seating position?

For years I've had a barco graphics 800 on a 60" widescreen. For the last few days I've had the Fugi 50".

The picture is incredible to the point I don't notice the loss of size which surprised me.

If your within 10 - 12 feet I don't think you can wait for the 65"+.

You need this display so bad you can taste it!
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post #96 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 05:12 PM
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O.K. Mark was a bit tame in his comments on Cliff's reaction post ISF. Cliff (who by the way did a fantastic job in the calibration on both displays) actually began with a distinct bias TOWARDS the Pioneer and ended up the session saying he would choose the Fujitsu. After calibration Mark played a couple of DVDs and the Fujitsu displayed a picture with obviously greater depth as the result of the superior blacks. In looking at both displays simultaneously showing the same DVD, it was almost as if a veil had been lifted when your eyes gazed towards the Fujitsu. There was a still a bit more detail in the dark areas on the Pioneer, but the Fujitsu's increase in picture depth and black levels, more than made up for it IMO. I continue to be amazed at how good the Fujitsu is. But again, the Pioneer is no slouch.

Now a note on the Pioneer. Cliff's calibration rendered the colors on the Pioneer very neutral. This was the first time I've seen a Pioneer with no obvious color bias. Cliff indicated that the aging of Mark's Pioneer manifested itself in a somewhat quicker aging of the blue phosphors as opposed to the green or red. This resulted in the color bias we all saw prior to the calibration. It didn't take Cliff very long to get the Pioneer back in spec.

It was a very fascinating day. I again thank Mark for his hospitality...where else would you get to see two calibrated displays of this level displaying the same picture simultaneously? This was truly a videophile's dream. Thanks Mark!
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post #97 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 06:15 PM
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If you could post the access codes for the service menu that would be very helpful.
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post #98 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 06:46 PM
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John, nobody knows of any service codes for the Fujitsu. In the user menu there are numerous settings including RGB controls. These are the controls that Cliff used for ISF adjustments.
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post #99 of 181 Old 01-24-2003, 09:19 PM
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Great post guys. Thanks for the special 411.

I agree that unless you see the systems calibrated side by side, you can't really be sure WHAT you are looking at. But, really, how many stores have these panels ISF calibrated side by side?!? I guess only Mark's home has this offering! Dude, you should sell tickets. ;)

Regardless of my previous comment, do you think that a calibrated Panny would be similar in results to the Fuji due to the same glass or, would the renowned Fuji scaler makes a big difference?

Also, was the Fuji doing native res when it was hooked up to the DVI or not. Would that explain the similar picture you got with the component?

Thanks again for the rare insight. -Brad
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post #100 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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the Fujitsu, as noted, does not have an integrator mode: this means the settings are done in the user menu which can be saved in memory

each input is calibrated using a DVD source with AVIA test disc: typically the first adjustment is defaulting all settings to factory settings, adjusting grey scale, then putting up an 80 IRE window and using a probe - which allow precise adjustment of color temperature to 6500K nominal

then we put in various DVD's to look at the picture:

The Fifth Element (Superbit)- freeze it on Leeloo's face in chapter 8: also look for detail in the policemen's uniforms (ribbing in the sleeves)

Roy Orbison: Black&White Night (thanks to jlm) : not for Bruce Spingsteen who accompanies, but for details in black levels and brightness of whites

Gladiator- great source of blacks on armor and colors in arena scenes


I used the Samsung 165, which is an OTA stb with DVI-HDCP output, because it has component video inputs- so I connected an RP-82 DVD player as a calibration source for Fujitsu DVI input: this did allow setting up AVIA but showed some serious issues with my early version of the Samsung

posting calibration settings is like posting photos: calibration settings are going to be DIFFERENT for every display- even of the same model- and is also influenced by line voltage, cabling, sources, hours on display, and other factors:

ISF calibration by a pro is highly recommended- to me it is essential- especially after seeing the improvements made yesterday to both shootout displays

the Fujitsu settings for Component video input RGB 3 with 480p source:

Brightness +9
Contrast -5
Color 0
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Picture Mode static
Precision settings:
red 241
green 253
blue 200
Noise reduction OFF

K = 6496




Pioneer settings for Component video input 2 with 480p source (settings in integrator mode):

Contrast 118
Brightness 134
Mode 1

Hi Low

R 255 R 123
G 237 G 126
B 252 B 127

K = 6524


many plasma displays are calibrated very hot out of the box (very bright) or not calibrated at all from the factory and when displayed in a showroom, it is easy to see one as appearing better : you can only make a valid comparison after calibration:

screenshots are affected by the camera: digital cameras have their own color temperatures/white balance settings. etc which will add "bias" to what you see posted

Mark

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post #101 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 07:46 AM
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Side Note: The Pioneer "Technical Manual" is the only one that I have seen so far that says the "White Balance" (Greyscale) needs to be checked every 1000 hrs. Your findings at 1000 hrs. and again at 1700+ hrs. is interesting indeed. I wonder what Pioneer is trying to tell us?

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post #102 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 09:10 AM
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How do you load a memory preset to a specific video input?

I'm trying to load mem1 into SVHS and mem2 into RGB but having no luck.
It puts whatever preset I last loaded and associates it with all inputs.

The manual is vague concerning "Load" and "Save" and they seem to have the same effect ie it saves those settings into memory presets but does not associate a particular preset with a particular input.

Also concerning "sharpness" setting in Comp Vid and SVHS inputs. I can't seem to get rid of "ringing" around text no matter where I set the control. Most noticable on CNN Headline News and such. Any hints.
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post #103 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 09:11 AM
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thanks guys

great info
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post #104 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaelrosato
My 2 cents:

MAB, How far back from the screen is your seating position?

If your within 10 - 12 feet I don't think you can wait for the 65"+.

You need this display so bad you can taste it!

I have the PRO1000HD which is a 50" plasma from Pioneer and seating at around 12 feet.

I was debating to get the new fuji but it does not make sense to have the same size display only with better blacks.

Will wait for next generation 60"+.
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post #105 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 09:51 AM
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Michael, the procedure is to first get the correct setting you want to store. You then go in to the "save" settings NOT the "load" settings. You then highlight whatever picture memory # you want to save your current settings to. So, for example, you highlight "memory 1" and then press the center "enter" button. You have now saved those settings in "memory 1". NOW, whenever you've changed your settings, you go to the "load" settings and highligh "memory 1" which will now load those settings you previously stored. Repeat the same procedures for whatever devices you wish to save settings for. Hope that clarifies things.
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post #106 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 09:53 AM
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What cable are you using for the DVI from the Samsung to the Fujitsu?
I too have the Samsung SIR-T165 stb and the manual says to use a 25 pin DVI-D connector. The Fuji brochure says its DVI input is a 15 pin connector. Is this a VGA connector? My Samsung did not come with a DVI cable and I doubt the Fuji comes with one either, so what would be a good source for this cable?
My Samsung also is an early unit and screws up the colors big time on dvds coming into its component input, so calibration of the HD input on the plasma via dvd would be difficult.
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post #107 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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sfinnell

used a DVI cable from Samsung 165 to DVI input of Fujitsu: the Samsung ASTC picture looks good

but the component video inputs produced problems from the DVI output:

-had a red push
-had an image shifting problem: even with the max horizontal shift on the Fujitsu the picture was shifted to the right

I usually don't use these inputs on the Samsung so never really noticed it before

yes calibration was a problem with this source:

this was the first source we tried to calibrate on the Fujitsu and it made it look bad; we realized it was a problem with Samsung when we moved onto the next input/source.

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post #108 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 10:58 AM
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Mark,
I wanted to clarify that the Fuji end of the DVI cable is 15 pin? The Samsung is 25 pin, and I thought DVI-D cables were 25 pin on both ends. Do you know if the Fuji end is a vga connector?
Thanks,
Steve F
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post #109 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by sfinnell
Mark,
I wanted to clarify that the Fuji end of the DVI cable is 15 pin? The Samsung is 25 pin, and I thought DVI-D cables were 25 pin on both ends. Do you know if the Fuji end is a vga connector?
Thanks,
Steve F
I refer to DVI-HDCP between the Fujitsu and the Samsung: a direct DVI-HDCP link between the two- using DVI cable- there are both VGA and DVI connectors on both units: in this case DVI >DVI was used

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post #110 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 11:40 AM
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Ken,

How does Fujitsu new menu system compare to the old one?

Did you notice any differences with the third generation AVM and the AVM in your 5004?

Mark,

How is the SD on the new Fujitsu

How does the Fujitsu SD compared to the Pioneer SD?

TEE
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post #111 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 12:13 PM
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Why would you want to route your DVD players component cable through the Samsung STB? Why not just go direct to the Fujitsu?

Mark and Ken:

I have the 50x. I have read several posts that you prefer using the "static" setting as opposed to the "dynamic". Would you mind telling me why?

There! I've run circles of logic around you!
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post #112 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandrewk
Why would you want to route your DVD players component cable through the Samsung STB? Why not just go direct to the Fujitsu?

Mark and Ken:

I have the 50x. I have read several posts that you prefer using the "static" setting as opposed to the "dynamic". Would you mind telling me why?
my DVD player was routed through the Samsung as a way to run AVIA into the DVI connector of the Fujitsu for ISF calibration of the DVI input- normally DVD sources are not connected this way- this turned out to be a poor choice of sources and I only mention it so no one else tries it

static is the mode we chose to calibrate in: we could have used dynamic, and we could have selected other options in fine mode- not to say one is better than another or that static was the best choice- it was a point of calibration

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post #113 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
NOW, whenever you've changed your settings, you go to the "load" settings and highligh "memory 1" which will now load those settings you previously stored. Repeat the same procedures for whatever devices you wish to save settings for. Hope that clarifies things.
Thanks Ken but sorry, but I still don't get it. :(

When I select VID2 I want it to go to Mem1 automatically.
When I select RGB2 I want it to go to Mem2 automatically.
etc, etc

Could you clarify:
" whenever you've changed your settings, you go to the "load" settings and highligh "memory 1" which will now load those settings you previously stored."

I'll spare you how convuluted my interpetation of this statement is.:confused:
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post #114 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ebaugh
Ken,
How does Fujitsu new menu system compare to the old one?

Did you notice any differences with the third generation AVM and the AVM in your 5004?

Mark,
Here's a comparison between the 5004 and the new Fujitsu. It's a bit early, but ths is what I've found so far:

* The DVI works beautifully, absolutely no problems...gorgeous picture.

* You now have direct access to any input rather than cycling through them. You also have a choice in how bright the menu is. Those that have seen the old menu system know that it was VERY bright. The new style allows the old look or a much more subdued look. I've opted for the darker menu.

* The picture is brighter and therefore the blacks seem blacker, but I'm not sure if that's really true (blacks being blacker) or just an apparent "blackness" based on the whiter whites.

* As in the past, I would seriously recommend the "static" setting in the picture menu. This allows the contrast to stay at your set point rather than changing dynamically. It also allows for a more natural looking picture.

* I've found that calibrating the color is somewhat harder on the new unit. On my 5004 I just dialed in the "warm" color temperature setting and it looked perfect. The new unit is calibrated in "degrees" relative to a hot "standard" setting as opposed to the more common names of "warm" "cool" etc. The baseline setting is now called "standard" and the additional settings are temperature deviations from that point: -500, -1,000, -1,500 through -3,500. You have the same number of settings on the + side. The problem is that none of these settings looked correct to me. The same was true on Mark's set. That necessitated going in to the "user" R/G/B settings (now called "precision color"). By manipulating the R/G/B, I got the color balance to look virtually the same as my 5004. It's not really a big deal, but I would have preferred them keeping what looked like the correct gray scale in the "warm" setting. The same R/G/B settings are available on the 5004, but now you seem to need it. Of course you should seriously consider an ISF adjustment.

* 2 component inputs as opposed to one.

* Somewhat different look to the casing....no big deal.

* The unit now comes with some overscan built in. This is actually not a bad thing! I found with the 5004, several DirecTV SD channels would show up with some picture "hash" on the left and right sides due to the fact that the unit had virtually no overscan. Even when I maxed out the "size" settings at +4, some channels would still show this problem. I've seen it on all 5004s. So, the new unit allows you to go to -4 which basically is no overscan, BUT gives you additional range compared to the 5004 to remove any picture hash. Again, probably not a big deal, but that hash could bother some viewers at times. I don't watch much SD material on satellite, but it's nice to know you can now remove any picture hash if so desired.

* It seems the SD picture is somewhat better. I can't say precisely how, but it seems somewhat smoother. Possibly an improvement in the AVM?

* The new fans are WHISPER quiet, much quieter than the old ones. In fact, I was wondering if my fans were even running until I went right up to the unit.
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post #115 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 01:42 PM
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Michael, each input will retain the last setting that was applied to THAT input. Therefore you can have as many memorized settings as there are inputs that will be immediately recalled when you switch to that input. If you left input 1 with a contrast of "8" and input 2 with a contrast of "2", both individual settings will be retained for those inputs. In other words, settings are not "global". The 8 memorized settings in the "picture memory" are additional and can then override whatever settings exist when you switch to any given input. These are not tied to a given input and can be applied to any of the inputs. I know it sounds a bit complicated, but if you work with it you should make some sense out of it after awhile.
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post #116 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 02:08 PM
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Ken - I believe that if the resolution changes, you have to re-input the settings for that input.

Most of the time, if you use a STB, your resolution will be 1080 or 480, so it's not an issue.

If you use it as a computer monitor, you may find that setting only apply to a given resolution. IOW, if you change your rez from 800x600 to 1280x1024 (1360x768 etc.), your calibration settings will not remain the same even though its thru the same RGB input.

This comes into play with games. Many have set resolutions, or at least will be different from your default resolution. e.g. When I play Everquest on the plasma in wide-screen mode (looks awesome btw), the picture settings change if I revert back to 4x3.

There! I've run circles of logic around you!
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post #117 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 03:03 PM
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Having performed the calibration on Mark Rubins Fujitsu and Pioneer plasma panels was a revelation for me yesterday! I was a very staunch supporter of the 503/1000 Pioneer which is still a good product today. However upon calibrating both products to the same signal and viewing them in the same environment I would personally choose the Fujitsu in a heartbeat over the Pioneer today. The Black level is so much better that it is not even a close call for anyone to make. This aspect of the PQ improves the overall image substantially. By comparison the Pioneer looks very washed out.

The additiional detail which I thought the ten bit processor of the Pioneer would reveal was only better than the Fujitsu on the order of a few percent at best. Looking at the Fujitsu picture quality vs the Pioneer looked like you just cleaned off a dirty window and had a more saturated color level. The menu system in the Fujitsu is easy to navigate and has greatly enhanced memory capacity which is another area that was a previous shortcoming to the Fujitsu panels. Calibration results were extremely accurate and easily achieved.

I feel that having also calibrated Panasonic panels that the software is a bit better on the Fujitsu and the processor is also slightly better. I am not crazy about any of the internal scalers although the AVM processor is among the best of the bunch .For the cost is no object videophile I would select an external processor to enhance the image. This is really not an absolute necessity to any but the fussiest of videophiles as from a normal viewing distance (10-12 feet or better) the small artifacts are not clearly visible.

The static gamma setting provided extremely linear response for Grayscale calibration and required only a small tweak to the Contrast and Brightness levels along with the White Balance adjustment to achieve a ruler flat tracking response. I was very impressed with the picture quality of this panel after calibration and feel that this is clearly the panel to judge all other 50" plasma's by today.


Cliff Plavin
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post #118 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 04:06 PM
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Thanks for the great info, guys. One question. My Pro1000 does very well in a lit room and limits the reflections. how does the Fuji compare?

Steve
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post #119 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
I know it sounds a bit complicated, but if you work with it you should make some sense out of it after awhile.
Thanks, Ken!

I've got it going now. It really wasn't complicated but I found the manual vague about how to do this.

Sure appreciate the help.
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post #120 of 181 Old 01-25-2003, 05:31 PM
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For future upgrades, can the internal scaler in the Fuji be bypassed or replaced with an external scaler?

Dan
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Closed Thread Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

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