Panasonic TH-42PA20 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 01:35 PM
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Also, they removed quick access to picture size adjustments, and screensaver controls.

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post #92 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 01:40 PM
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do both the commercial and consumer come in the same casing? ie. do they look exactly the same? (6UY vs PA-20)
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post #93 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 01:44 PM
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Tally:

Enhancements:

DVI-HDCP Input
4000:1 contrast ratio
PIP
Multiple A/V Jacks
Built in Tuner
Built in speakers?


Unwanted side affects:

No Picture/Pos. button (horizontal/vertical adjustments)
No screen saver features
720p Support?
Horizontal A/V Jacks (may make for a tight fit when wall mounted)
Look of built in speakers/silver frame? (This is a subjective one)
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post #94 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 02:45 PM
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You won't like the answer, but NO, the TH42PA20U will NOT accept the 720P signal from my Bravo D1.... sorry guys.. more to follow when I get a chance...

As a side note, it does accept 480p, 1080i and the native 852x480 from the Bravo D1.
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post #95 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gingurus
do both the commercial and consumer come in the same casing? ie. do they look exactly the same? (6UY vs PA-20)
No. Only Consumer Plasmas have the new look with speakers and silver bezel. The new Commercial Plasmas will keep the old design.
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post #96 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jasonbanks
You won't like the answer, but NO, the TH42PA20U will NOT accept the 720P signal from my Bravo D1.... sorry guys.. more to follow when I get a chance...

As a side note, it does accept 480p, 1080i and the native 852x480 from the Bravo D1.
OUCH.

What happens? Do you get a blank screen? or an error message.
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post #97 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 06:35 PM
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Since this is the display I'm getting ready to purchase, I really wanted to find out about about the 720P issue.

1) Cabber posted on 7/14/03 at 3:09AM that the PQ was actually better on a 720P signal than on 1080I. "More vibrant."

2) I believe based on Jba's post on 7/17/03 at 9:48PM that he's using a feed via the component input.

I mention that because when I called Panasonic to inquire about this, the rep insisted that the display accepts 720P on it's own, without a STP doing a dance with the signal.
He said that it states such at the bottom of page 16 of the owner's manual in a box labeled "NOTE." It supposedly says that "through the DVI connection, the display accepts 1080I. 720P, and 480P signals." So perhaps the display accepts 720P signals only through the DVI?? A member here far more knowledgable than I should know if that could possibly be correct.

Since this was the third time I've called Panasonic with a question, and since I don't even own one yet, I felt like I was pushing my luck with any more questions. But I'd like to know more about the screensaver, and service menu issues. I'll try to call next week if I can find the time. You're generally on hold for about 15 minutes before anyone gets to you. In case people have to know before then, the phone number is 800-211-7262.

Warning: almost everything stated above could be incorrect!!
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post #98 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 06:59 PM
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Note for the DTV input is actually in page 17 in my manual. The note clearly says that: "The DIGITAL IN terminal can only be used with 1080i, 480i or 480p picture signals." There is no mention of 720p in the entire manual.

This is indeed a bummer. So does it mean we have to depend on the scaler on the STB rather than TV? Is there a trade off this case?

BTW, I am getting HD ABC from the comcast STB and it looks good. I could not notice anything wrong with the picture. So, hopefully this is not a major issue.
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post #99 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 07:30 PM
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Krammer,

Though I expected incompetence when I called tech support, not to this level. This rep was probably reading from the owner's manual of last year's model!!

I'm not knowledgable enough to really know what this means, but what counts is the PQ. Both you and Cabber are getting great pictures on 720P material. What I don't understand is why Cabber didn't mention this when he stated on his 7/14/03. 3:09 post that the 720P signal that he was watching actually gave him a better picture than 1080I.

Are you running DVI or component from your STB to your display? And do you notice a drop in PQ on a 720P signal as opposed to 1080I signal?
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post #100 of 211 Old 07-18-2003, 09:48 PM
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Arnie,

STB is connected to TV via Component. DVI output of the Motorola STB is not operational yet. The cable guy said that it needs a software update to activate it which is not available now.

I was switching between NBC and ABC to find any difference in picture quality. My STB is converting the ABC's 720p to 1080i, assuming that ABC is broadcast in 720p format. It is hard to tell any difference except that ABC is a little less sharp than NBC. But again, hard to say. ABC programming was all in the 4:3 format with black bars in the sides today. So, could not compare it with Jay leno and Law and Order, which definitely looked better in the 16:9 format. But quality of 4:3 programming of ABC and NBC are more or less the same. So, I am not too worried.
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post #101 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 12:16 AM
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Krammer,

Yes, ABC is 720P, so it's good news that 1080I and 720P PQ is about the same. As I said above, Cabber liked his 720 signal better than 1080.

I don't believe that any above posts indicate that anyone who was actually using the DVI had a problem accepting 720P. Not to say the display does accept 720 without the STB converting it, but until there is some one using the DVI with a 720 signal coming in, we won't really know. Although, your manual makes no mention of 720P, so it could very well be that it doesn't.

It's hard to believe that the rep I spoke to could have had the wrong manual in his hand, but it looks that way.
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post #102 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 12:25 AM
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Well, if the display does not accept 720p over DVI, then if I were using DVI and had a flexible STB, I'd let it do the downconversion to 480p and feed that in first. Because the alternative of sideconverting the 720p --> 1080i and then ---> 480p is a bit odd.

However, just as I write that, I realize that the "1080i" might well be more like 540p than 1080i in which case it won't likely make a huge difference either way.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #103 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 01:19 AM
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Some more speculation... I found two different info sheets for the PWD6UY which specify that the DVI and component inputs support 480p, 575p, 720p and 1080i. If one assumes that the hardware is really the same, then one could reasonably conclude that the 42PA20 should also support 720p.

http://www.nexnix.co.uk/pds/docs/Pan...Plasma%206.pdf
http://www.electronics-depot.com/Bro...D6UY_final.PDF
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post #104 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 06:52 AM
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Sounds like we still need some conclusive tests feeding this thing 720p, probably through both component and DVI to see if it displays it, or if it gives a scan error, or if it's just blank, or what.

Jason, have you had a chance to test any more from the Bravo, say via component vs dvi, etc? Also, what did the display do with the 720 signal?

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post #105 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 09:07 AM
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I got into the menu of my STB to see what signal it was outputting thro component. I found that it was set to 1080i. I changed it to 720p and the screen went into a white haze quite like how a regular NTSC TV would look like when it has no signal. The screen does not go blank. I also cycled thro 480p and 480i output on the STB which all worked fine except for 720p

So it is conclusive that 720p does not work with Component input. I cannot test DVI since I dont have a DVI source. It would be great if someone could test 720p with DVI-IN.
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post #106 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 11:12 AM
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Although it'll be good if someone can test 720p thru DVI, I am quite sure that it won't work given the very clear note in the manual. And, although I would ideally like the set to have the capability to receive 720p signals, I am not going to lose sleep over it--and I'm certainly not going to return it because of that. As I've mentioned, the display does very well with the HD feeds I've seen, including ABC shows that are fed into the TV in 1080i through the STB. So, people can test all they'd like, but I'm going to go back to enjoying the picture on my beautiful new Panny, with or without 720p support!
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post #107 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 04:11 PM
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Jba87: Right move.

All: This is vexing and odd. I am leaning back toward the commercial model -- if it does this magic. What is the overall input matrix of the commercial with DVI in the final slot vs. the consumer? Does the commercial have the advantage of VGA or not?

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #108 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 04:55 PM
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Vexing indeed. While I don't think of it as a rule breaker, it, combined with the other removed or moved features does take a bit of the appeal off for me.

Now comes the real kicker. The current models PD3 and 5UY are going fast, as well as dropping fast in price. So, does one wait for the 6UY to come out at the risk of missing a great price on the current, take the changes and go with the PA20U, or snag a current model?

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post #109 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 11:18 PM
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Moebius, I'm in the same boat as you. Ultimately my deciding factor is the HDCP issue which makes me conclude for myself: PD3/5UY will definitely have problems with HDCP and PA20/6UY "should" not. Downscaling by HDCP to 480p may not be that big of a deal for ED in theory, but there are some observations that the Panny's do a better job at scaling an STB's 1080i input to 480p compared to letting the STB scale to 480p. Seeing as the quality of the scalers in STB's will be unpredictable (depends on who your provider is and what models they support), I'm willing to pay the extra few C notes to get the 6UY/PA20U so that I have the option to choose the hardware that does the scaling. Of course, this option may or may not be important to you.
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post #110 of 211 Old 07-19-2003, 11:42 PM
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Screw the bogus downscaling issue -- that is just not even a feature of DVI/HDCP.

Let's talk about the breathtaking DVD pictures people are getting over DVI -- today. Any serious buyer needs DVI, even if HDCP fades away.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #111 of 211 Old 07-20-2003, 01:50 AM
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"Downscaling by DHCP to 480p" should be read as "Downscaling required by DHCP for a device outputting to a non-DHCP compliant device to 480p." I didn't mean to imply that DVI/HDCP itself does any downscaling.
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post #112 of 211 Old 07-20-2003, 07:27 AM
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"...there are some observations that the Panny's do a better job at scaling an STB's 1080i input to 480p compared to letting the STB scale to 480p. Seeing as the quality of the scalers in STB's will be unpredictable (depends on who your provider is and what models they support),.."

Are there D* HD STB that are known to have better scaling than others?

John
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post #113 of 211 Old 07-20-2003, 03:11 PM
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Consuetudo, I wish to be clear. The downscaling issue actually does not exist in any documentation regarding HDCP. It exists only in the Firewire/5C/DTCP documents, in the DirecTV set-top box rules, and, perhaps, in some form in the proposed broadcast flag rules (although I doubt the third of these is true).

HDCP is the only one of these that doesn't speak about the analog inputs and doing anything to them. That's a semantic point, but a true one.

Now, John asks a good question and quite candidly I have no idea right now.

But one bucking for the Panasonic might want to know because the old models did a wondrous job taking 1080i --> 480p but -- in truth -- were less good with 720p --> 480p (or at least seemed to be).

The good news is that while I always credited Panasonic for the excellent downconverts, recent data has indicated to me that up- and downconversion is not so expensive to get right. For reasons that defy logic, the upconverter in the Samsung 931 DVD players is better than the one in the Toshiba LCOS RPTV even though one costs 1/20th off the other.

Now, obviously, that's one anecdote (aka the singular of data), but it's a powerful one. As set-top boxes get more advanced, perhaps their downconversion will be every bit as good as Panasonic's. If this is true, then sending 720p out of an STB as 480p should do no damage.

We will need a local Bay Area buyer if someone wishes me to help test this out. We can feed the set some 1080i via the Zenith I have and then feed it the same broadcast over 480p to see how well it downconverts. That won't truly tell us how well it downconverts 720p, but, then I find that test somewhat impossible to achieve.

I suppose we could try the latter test -- and a 1080i test -- on an older Panasonic, however. It would speak to whether the Zenith's downconversion is better than, worse than, or equivalent to the Pansonic's.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #114 of 211 Old 07-20-2003, 03:43 PM
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Although I've admittedly scanned some of these posts quickly, I find this situation more than a bit odd. My 42" Fujitsu ED panel, which is based on the last Panny model, does take native 720p via the DVI. Additionally, as with the Fujitsu P50, the picture is somewhat better (sharper with more vibrant colors) when the STB is set to 720p for a native 720p broadcast as opposed to letting the STB output 1080i.

Could there be that much of an input difference between the Fujitsu 42 and the new Panny? Seems odd.
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post #115 of 211 Old 07-20-2003, 06:29 PM
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rogo, I agree with you 95%. HDCP is really just a content delivery protocol specification, and how it will be leveraged/used by the media industry is, of course, speculation based on marketing propaganda and historical references. I happen to take the position alongside some people here that contractually forcing content deliverers by the content providers to downconvert to 480p for non HDCP compliant devices is a very plausible scenario. Your point about the improving quality of STB may be the ticket to soothing the early HDTV adopters who have non HDCP compliant devices. Afterall, if the STB can scale 1080/720 programming to 480p at or above the quality currently observed in the Panasonic, then these early adopters may not really notice (or care about) any degradation on their sets due to the downconversion. But I am not as enthusiastic as you that these STB's scalers will dramatically improve in performance like DVD players or display devices have been doing. For the moment the consumer has no real choice in selecting the STB, and without real choice there is less competition and less likelihood that STB manufacturers will focus on quality.

But I fully admit that this is all pure, uninhibited speculation. :)

Ken, I really wish you hadn't brought up the Fujitsu. I have this nagging curiousity as to how the Fujitsu 42 ED compares with the new Panny in terms of PQ. Both are supposedly better than the old Panny, but nobody within 200 miles of me has a Fujitsu that I can look at. Maybe someone here could do a new shootout between the two.
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post #116 of 211 Old 07-21-2003, 03:04 AM
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<<I happen to take the position alongside some people here that contractually forcing content deliverers by the content providers to downconvert to 480p for non HDCP compliant devices is a very plausible scenario. >>

Not under HDCP, which doesn't discuss the analog outputs. It discussed shutting off the DVI output for non-compliant displays when material is HDCP encoded.

You are speaking of some other hypothetical, perhaps, like the "broadcast flag" perhaps? But there just isn't a chance in hell that the at least 10 million non-DVI HDTVs that'll be out on the market before all shipping models have DVI/HDCP are going to be unable to get HDTV.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #117 of 211 Old 07-21-2003, 05:27 AM
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Sorry, busy this past weekend, in reference to my 720P comment, I was unable to get a 720P signal through using my Bravo D1 through DVI. All I got was wavy lines, much like a CRT that is way out of sync.

I have not had a chance to try anything via Component.. I do not know if the Bravo outputs 720P through component..
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post #118 of 211 Old 07-21-2003, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
You are speaking of some other hypothetical, perhaps, like the "broadcast flag" perhaps? But there just isn't a chance in hell that the at least 10 million non-DVI HDTVs that'll be out on the market before all shipping models have DVI/HDCP are going to be unable to get HDTV.
I'd tend to agree there. The FCC has shown stupidity in the past (for example, look at the complete mess that HD turned into to begin with), but locking out that many users inside of 6 or 7 years seems unfathomable. As it is, it seems they've backed themselves into a bit of a corner by having all these different formats (18 at one point I believe) make it to the forefront. They'll have trouble weeding out the mess for several years yet I'd wager.

I've posted this before, but still like to read it for the occasional chuckle.

Brief History of HDTV

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post #119 of 211 Old 07-21-2003, 09:07 AM
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So what is going to happen if you cannot force a specific HDTV resolution and it happens to be 720p ?

I'm starting to be skeptical about this model now....
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post #120 of 211 Old 07-21-2003, 09:17 AM
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I think the lack of 720p is not a big deal. I can't think of a device that has only a 720p output. Some of today's cable boxes (including the infamous SA 3100HD) only output 1080i (leaving early adaptors with TV sets with no 1080i input in the dark). Newer cable boxes, however, can be configured to output 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. All DVD players output at least a 480p signal and usually can be configured to display a full range of other resolutions. Videogame consoles are not restricted to 720p either.

I appreciate that many people think that certain HDTV stations look better in 720p (if recorded in that resolution) than if upscaled or downscaled to a different resolution by the cable box. But who would go through the hassle of changing the output settings of their cable box every time they switch to a different channel??

:confused:
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