DVI board issues with Panny 6? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 118 Old 11-01-2003, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm considering getting a Panny 6 series 50", but I've heard there are issues with the optional DVI board.

I would really like to be able to connect a digital source to the DVI board at the native resoultion of 1366 x 768 (so that the pixels are mapped 1:1 and no scaling is required, for optimum picture quality).

Can someone please confirm that this is possible?
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post #2 of 118 Old 11-01-2003, 11:13 AM
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well it seems you can do it to 480p too low, 720p, 1080i no prob as for a custom setting you might want to go with the computer for custom settings or look into a dvd that will let you customize the output for1:1 like the bravo d1. As for other inputs same goes there really. As far as I know the dvi boards aren't the issue but the firmware or this eeprom setting for some edtv monitors is off. I highly doubt that a true hd monitor would be off as it is to display the higher res out of the box and is expected :)
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post #3 of 118 Old 11-01-2003, 03:31 PM
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Not sure if I'm understanding your point about the scaling. Most sources aren't going to be 1366 x 768 natively so some form of scaling will have to take place - either within the Panny itself or in your source device. Admittedly, the PQ technically should be better if you still use the DVI connection since the signal remains in the digital domain all throughout.

The DVI board has been getting a bad rep here in the forum lately but I'm sure that there are others that are using their DVI boards without problems as well ...

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post #4 of 118 Old 11-02-2003, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it is true that most sources won't be 1366 x 768 from the beginning.

However, the picture quality will be better if there are fewer steps of scaling. If a DVD player outputs the native resolution of the display, the image will be scaled only once and then sent to the display where it will match the pixels 1:1 - thus bypassing the displays built-in scaler.

This would also allow for external scalers with DVI output to produce very good results.

From my point of view, if the DVI input of the display is incapable of handling the native resolution of the display, it sucks. Yes, there won't be any D/A or A/D conversions, but the image will still be processed and scaled several times instead of only once.

What is the point of having a digital connection if you can't even send an image and have it displayed without modifications?
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post #5 of 118 Old 11-02-2003, 08:28 PM
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I am still waiting on my DVD "blade," but my understanding is that it has all of the same limitations as the D-sub 15 PC input for frequencies. So since I am driving D-sub 15 at a native resolution of 1366x768 @ 60hz from my PC, I expect to be able to do the same through the DVI connection.
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post #6 of 118 Old 11-02-2003, 09:52 PM
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But if the DVD player outputs the native resolution of the *source* (which should be 480p or 480i in the case of current DVDs, correct?), you're still only scaling once even if the plasma scales to native resolution. Plus, there's no guarantee that the DVD player would have a better scaler than the plasma scaler (though you bring up an interesting point with the external scaler idea). However, as IslandGuy has mentioned, people have mentioned about the probability of defining custom display settings ala Powerstrip to match the native resolution of the panel so this probably won't even be an issue ... :)

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post #7 of 118 Old 11-02-2003, 10:37 PM
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Well, you can output a computer at 1365/6x768 resolution no problems.

See www.imaginegraphics.co.uk -- I have one of these running a 852x480 Panny plasma, albeit with the VGA (analog) input.
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post #8 of 118 Old 11-03-2003, 07:34 AM
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IslandGuy - running PC's into the new HDCP enabled DVI or HDMI ports may be a problem. It appears that the manufacturers are supporting PC resolutions on the VGA port and video resolutions on their DVI ports. From what I've seen reported here, the HDCP ports on the Pannys and Fujis are only supporting 852x480 since that is essentially a 480p signal. Big Bummer. If anyone has contradictory experience, could you please post here?

The new Pio's may be a different story if there is a menu selection in the 2 HDMI ports such as "VIDEO HDCP" vs. "PC". One can only hope. It would be ashamed if Pio abandons the incredible result one gets with the Pio 503/5002 combo which supports 1280x768 NR PC resolution on its (non-HDCP) DVI input.
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post #9 of 118 Old 11-03-2003, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Well, you can output a computer at 1366x768 resolution no problems.
I know. The question is if you can input it to the DVI blade and get a 1:1 pixel match?

Quote:
But if the DVD player outputs the native resolution of the *source* (which should be 480p or 480i in the case of current DVDs, correct?), you're still only scaling once even if the plasma scales to native resolution. Plus, there's no guarantee that the DVD player would have a better scaler than the plasma scaler (though you bring up an interesting point with the external scaler idea).
Yes, that is correct. But the DVD player (or whatever) could have a better scaler. Why should the DVI board impose such totally unneccesary and, IMHO, stupid limits?

What if you want to connect a computer to it and display, say, your desktop?

Anyone who has seen an LCD monitor connected to a computer using DVI knows that the picture is far superior when the native display resolution is used. When another resoultion is used, the image looks softer. Trust me on this one.

But anyways, the DVI blade might work fine for all I know. I'm not bashing it. I just want to find out if the complaints I've read here and there are valid or not, before I shell out $7000 and buy the thing.
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post #10 of 118 Old 11-03-2003, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ph0sphor
Yes, it is true that most sources won't be 1366 x 768 from the beginning.

However, the picture quality will be better if there are fewer steps of scaling. If a DVD player outputs the native resolution of the display, the image will be scaled only once and then sent to the display where it will match the pixels 1:1 - thus bypassing the displays built-in scaler.

This would also allow for external scalers with DVI output to produce very good results.

From my point of view, if the DVI input of the display is incapable of handling the native resolution of the display, it sucks. Yes, there won't be any D/A or A/D conversions, but the image will still be processed and scaled several times instead of only once.

What is the point of having a digital connection if you can't even send an image and have it displayed without modifications?
You are right on the money here;)
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post #11 of 118 Old 11-03-2003, 01:25 PM
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Hm, I just ordered a 50" 6UY with the DVI Blade. Now I'm worried about the PQ when connecting it to my PC...
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post #12 of 118 Old 11-04-2003, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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kilmar: When you have received it, could you please test it and give us a report on how it works?

Anyone else here who has the DVI board?

I would really like to know if it can do 1:1 pixel mapping before I buy the display.
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post #13 of 118 Old 11-04-2003, 11:20 AM
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I'll gladly test and post results once I receive the unit
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post #14 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 11:35 AM
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Just received my DVI-D blade today.

According to the manual, it does allow input signals at a frequency of 1,366x768 @ 60Hz. I am excited since that is exactly what I was looking for.

So here is the list of the signals that it does accept:
480i/480p
575i/575p
720p
1080i
640x480 @ 60Hz
852x480 @ 60Hz
800x600 @ 60Hz
1024x768 @ 60Hz
1066x600 @ 60Hz
1366x768 @ 60Hz
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post #15 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 02:58 PM
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I bought a th-50phd6uy last month, and the dvi card. I have been unable to get my computer to output to the panny at any resolution higher than the standard 1024x768. Powerstrip reports that the max. resolution the display claims to support is 1336x752. (Not 1366x768 as claimed by the ty-42tm6d manual). I've tried configuring these settings via powerstrip custom timings, but after rebooting with these settings, I am still unable to select them in powerstrip (response is a beep and resolution reverts back to 1024x768).

Oh, and I've tried with both an ati radeon 8500 and a radeon 9600 pro, so I don't think the problem is with the video card.

There is thread over in the 'Home Theater Computers' forum about this, but speculation was that the user's 42" model couldn't do 1366x768 even tho the DVI card could. Since I have the 50", I should be able to get 1336-1368x768 but I haven't been able to figure out how.

Does anyone actually have this working?
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post #16 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bcc
I bought a th-50phd6uy last month, and the dvi card. I have been unable to get my computer to output to the panny at any resolution higher than the standard 1024x768. Powerstrip reports that the max. resolution the display claims to support is 1336x752. (Not 1366x768 as claimed by the ty-42tm6d manual). I've tried configuring these settings via powerstrip custom timings, but after rebooting with these settings, I am still unable to select them in powerstrip (response is a beep and resolution reverts back to 1024x768).

Oh, and I've tried with both an ati radeon 8500 and a radeon 9600 pro, so I don't think the problem is with the video card.

There is thread over in the 'Home Theater Computers' forum about this, but speculation was that the user's 42" model couldn't do 1366x768 even tho the DVI card could. Since I have the 50", I should be able to get 1336-1368x768 but I haven't been able to figure out how.

Does anyone actually have this working?
This exactly what I was waiting to hear. According to the tech support guy at VA, I was not able to do 1366x768 on my 42" because it was only for the 50" model. Didn't matter that the manual didn't mark certain res's with an asterik indicating 50" model only. What this means is DVI is BROKE or the manual is plain wrong and I was misled!!! I frankly want my money back. How can I contact Panasonic about this? I am past the 30 day window with VA. I am really pi$$ed now, because I can already see the "buck being passed" here. You should be able to get that res with Powerstrip, and you should be REALLY pi$$ed because you just paid a chunk of change.
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post #17 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 04:16 PM
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Have a look at the first page of the brochure listed below. You'll see a list of outputs and support for different resolutions. Look at the TY-42TM6D column for supported outputs. It's not very impressive compared to the unsual 15 pin D sub port.

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...H-50PHD6UY.pdf

Hope this helps,
Santo
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post #18 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snuci
Have a look at the first page of the brochure listed below. You'll see a list of outputs and support for different resolutions. Look at the TY-42TM6D column for supported outputs. It's not very impressive compared to the unsual 15 pin D sub port.

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...H-50PHD6UY.pdf

Hope this helps,
Santo
That chart shows 1366x768@60hz. as a supported resolution. So no, that does not help. It's the same information that is in the manual, and matches previous posts.
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post #19 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 04:31 PM
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It helps you with your arguement with Panasonic as to why it won't do 1366x768@60Hz when it's printed everywhere that it will :)

Santo
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post #20 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeepman
What this means is DVI is BROKE or the manual is plain wrong and I was misled!!! I frankly want my money back. How can I contact Panasonic about this? I am past the 30 day window with VA. I am really pi$$ed now, because I can already see the "buck being passed" here. You should be able to get that res with Powerstrip, and you should be REALLY pi$$ed because you just paid a chunk of change.
Ah yes, you were the user in the other thread (that I cannot seem to find right now).

I have a bit more information. My DVI slot is also connected to a MYHD card. The MYHD card claims to support resolutions including 1024x768p, 1360x768p, 1920x1080i, and 1280x768p. The 1920x1080i and 1024x768p work for me, but the 1360x768p and 1280x768p do not.

Yes, I paid $225 to VA for the DVI card, $188 for the PC video card to go with it, and $90 for MYHD DVI daughter card. It seems like Panasonic misrepresented things again, but I'm still not certain. I'm a bit used to this sort of thing as an early adopter.

I remember when panasonic claimed that their 2ghz phones were spread spectrum, but one reviewer was able to pick up the local end of the phone call in the clear. I think panasonic still markets their 2ghz phones as spread spectrum years later...
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post #21 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 06:06 PM
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Anybody know how to read raw EDID information? The following is from entechtaiwan's moninfo program. It seems to show the TY-42TM4D claiming to only support some basic resolutions:



Monitor
Windows description......... Plug and Play Monitor
Manufacturer description.... TY-42TM4D
Manufacturer................ Panasonic
Plug and Play ID............ MEIA005
Serial number............... 8 (133700008)
Manufacture date............ 2003, ISO week 37
EDID revision............... 1.1
Display type and signal..... Digital
Sync input support.......... Separate
Screen size................. 920 x 520 mm (~44")
Power management............ Not supported

Color characteristics
Display gamma............... 2.20
Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.345
Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.291 - Gy 0.635
Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.163 - By 0.093
White point (default)....... Wx 0.288 - Wy 0.296

Timing characteristics
VESA GTF support............ Not supported
Horizontal scan range....... 30-48kHz (est.)
Vertical scan range......... 48-60Hz (est.)
Video bandwidth............. 64MHz (est.)

Standard timings supported
640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA

Raw EDID (1)
00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 34 A9 05 A0 08 00 00 00
10: 25 0D 01 01 88 5C 34 78 08 DA FF A3 58 4A A2 29
20: 17 49 4B 21 08 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 00 00 00 FE 00 00 00 00 00 00
40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FE 00 00 00 00
50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FE 00 00
60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FC
70: 00 54 59 2D 34 32 54 4D 34 44 0A 20 20 20 00 2A

Display adapter
Adapter description......... RADEON 8500 SERIES
Adapter device ID........... 0x514C1002
Display settings............ 1024x768, 16bpp

User/computer information
Registered user name........ bcc
Registered organization.....
Network user name........... bcc
Network computer name....... HTPC
Windows version ............ Windows XP
Windows build .............. 5.01.2600 Service Pack 1
Installation date .......... 8/9/2103 12:18:17 AM
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post #22 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 09:31 PM
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Got it!!

After only playing around with it for around an hour (very annoying). I found that I could get a pretty close, but not exact 1366x768 resolution with a 1368x768 setting.

Using PowerStrip 3.47 with the advanced timing options, I found that setting the pixel clock to the dot clock frequency setting near 86.75, per the DVI-D blade manual, allowed the monitor to synch in. This actually results in a refresh rating of 59Hz. Go figure.

Bottom line, I am driving my 50PHD6UY at 1368x768 @ 59Hz via the DVI-D connection. My video card is a ATI Radeon 8500 Pro.
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post #23 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 09:44 PM
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Most graphics card can only handle resolutions that are divisible by 8.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #24 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 11:04 PM
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Not sure if I mentioned this here already, but Imagine Graphics in the UK makes a card that spits out perfect plasma resolutions --- www.imaginegraphics.co.uk. It's a bit tough to get in the US, fairly expensive (over $300), but it works great.
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post #25 of 118 Old 11-06-2003, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by IslandGuy
Got it!!

After only playing around with it for around an hour (very annoying). I found that I could get a pretty close, but not exact 1366x768 resolution with a 1368x768 setting.

Using PowerStrip 3.47 with the advanced timing options, I found that setting the pixel clock to the dot clock frequency setting near 86.75, per the DVI-D blade manual, allowed the monitor to synch in. This actually results in a refresh rating of 59Hz. Go figure.

Bottom line, I am driving my 50PHD6UY at 1368x768 @ 59Hz via the DVI-D connection. My video card is a ATI Radeon 8500 Pro.
Can you be more specific? I already tried 1368x768 with powerstrip and could not get it to work. I was using version 3.45, and I just tried again with 3.47, and still no luck.

Under advanced timings, if you modify the pixel clock setting directly it applies to the current resolution (1024x768). So overriding the value with 86.75 results in the panny claiming signal loss.

If instead you go to advanced timings->custom resolutions->predefined->1368x768, you can modify the pixel clock by changing the horiziontal or vertical refresh rates. (Powerstrip doesn't let you modify the pixel clock directly from this custom resolutions window). Lowering the vertical refresh rate from 60 to 59 drops the pixel clock from its default of 85.475 so this must not be what you meant.

Bottom line is I've tried the obvious things with powerstrip and all I can get is a windows "beep" out of it when I try to switch to a custom or predefined resolution that is higher than 1024x768.
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post #26 of 118 Old 11-07-2003, 04:36 AM
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bcc,

Let me see if I can describe everything. Again, there was a lot of playing around and not a lot of note taking on specific steps :-).

First, I should describe my initial state. I was running 1368x768 @ 60Hz through the VGA (DB-15) connection. I have been running this mode pretty much since I received the screen. To get to this state, I used PowerStrip to add in the resolution. I then let my video card and the ATI Catalyst drivers handle the rest and did not use PowerStrip at all. As a side note, I have read that you can also use the INF Plasma file from Imagegraphics to add the resolution for those that do not even want to install and use the PowerStrip tool. mdryja, you may know more on Imagegraphics and can comment on this given your previous update.

Now, getting from VGA to DVI-D... Contrary to what the TY-42TM6D manual says, I do not believe that the blade can really take the 1368x768 signal at 60Hz. If it did then switching connectors should automatically have worked and I would have saved over an hour of my time! :-). Anyway, after a bunch of messing around which led nowhere, I loaded up PowerStrip 3.47 while in VGA 1368x768 mode to more read the clock timing and frequencies than to actually play with settings. This is when I noticed that my horizontal frequency and dot clock frequency were higher than what was printed in the DVI-D manual (vertical frequency was near 60Hz). So I started using the PowerStrip buttons to change the horizontal frequency which automatically started to reduce the dot clock and the vertical frequency. I stopped this adjustment when I got the dot clock close to the stated 86.75MHz (the dot clock was close to 88MHz when I first started playing with these settings). The resolution still held, but looked a tad dimmer. Heck, maybe I was just tired :-). I saved the settings and then decided to switch over to the DVI-D output. Before cutting over, I set the resolution to 1024x768 @ 60Hz via the PowerStrip slider. Switching to DVI-D was very straight forward and I was soon staring at a 1024x768 @ 60Hz via DVI-D. I activated PowerStrip again and used the resolution slider to switch to 1368x768. The signal held though a little bit off on picture geometry.

So lastly, I used the advanced timing options to adjust the geometry and play with the frequencies more. Sure enough, as soon as I tried to inch towards the vertical frequency of 60Hz, the screen would not hold the signal. My final settings:

- Dot/Pixel clock = 87.932MHz
- Horizontal frequency = 48.653KHz
- Vertical frequency = 59.675Hz

Your mileage will vary. Note, my video card is a true ATI Radeon 8500 Pro and not a 3rd party card just using the ATI engine and chipset. Good luck!
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post #27 of 118 Old 11-07-2003, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by IslandGuy

Now, getting from VGA to DVI-D... Contrary to what the TY-42TM6D manual says, I do not believe that the blade can really take the 1368x768 signal at 60Hz. If it did then switching connectors should automatically have worked and I would have saved over an hour of my time! :-). Anyway, after a bunch of messing around which led nowhere, I loaded up PowerStrip 3.47 while in VGA 1368x768 mode to more read the clock timing and frequencies than to actually play with settings. This is when I noticed that my horizontal frequency and dot clock frequency were higher than what was printed in the DVI-D manual (vertical frequency was near 60Hz). So I started using the PowerStrip buttons to change the horizontal frequency which automatically started to reduce the dot clock and the vertical frequency. I stopped this adjustment when I got the dot clock close to the stated 86.75MHz (the dot clock was close to 88MHz when I first started playing with these settings). The resolution still held, but looked a tad dimmer. Heck, maybe I was just tired :-). I saved the settings and then decided to switch over to the DVI-D output. Before cutting over, I set the resolution to 1024x768 @ 60Hz via the PowerStrip slider. Switching to DVI-D was very straight forward and I was soon staring at a 1024x768 @ 60Hz via DVI-D. I activated PowerStrip again and used the resolution slider to switch to 1368x768. The signal held though a little bit off on picture geometry.
Thanks this info helps, but I still remain unable to configure 1368x768 with an ati radeon 8500 or radeon 9600 pro (made by ATI cards). The problem is I cannot get to the point where you tinker with the geometry, as the system merely beeps when I try to apply a 1368x768 resolution. Yes I've tried starting with dot clocks and frequencies that are within bounds of what the TY-42TM6D is supposed to support (or what powerstrip claims it supports). Consider yourself lucky that you only burned 1 hour with powerstrip :)

Any chance you could send your exact timings so that I can try those? Go to advanced timing options and click on the "copy timings to clipboard" icon which is next to the cancel button.
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post #28 of 118 Old 11-08-2003, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Not sure if I mentioned this here already, but Imagine Graphics in the UK makes a card that spits out perfect plasma resolutions --- www.imaginegraphics.co.uk. It's a bit tough to get in the US, fairly expensive (over $300), but it works great.
mdryja, have you tried their PixelPerfect card? Which PDP did you try it with?

They have drivers and a plasma.inf file available for download at http://www.imaginegraphics.co.uk/drivers/drivers.htm - I guess the plasma.inf could be worth a try for those of you who are unable to create a 1366 x 768 @ 60Hz mode in Powerstrip.

Here is a quote from their support FAQ:
Quote:
We strongly recommend using only the correct 'Native' resolution for your PDP, using any other screen resolution will produce greatly inferior picture quality.
I guess this confirms what I said in the beginning of this thread.
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post #29 of 118 Old 11-08-2003, 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by ph0sphor

They have drivers and a plasma.inf file available for download at http://www.imaginegraphics.co.uk/drivers/drivers.htm - I guess the plasma.inf could be worth a try for those of you who are unable to create a 1366 x 768 @ 60Hz mode in Powerstrip.
Their plasma.inf has no mention of panasonic DVI ports. In fact, its only panasonic references are to older models:

Monitor11="Panasonic TH-42PWD3"
Monitor12="Panasonic TH-50PHD3"

So I can't imagine how this could be worth a try.
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post #30 of 118 Old 11-08-2003, 11:48 AM
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Ah, the under-documented trick was to do:
Windows Display properties > Settings > Advanced > Monitor, then un-check "Hide modes...".
At this point, powerstrip stops failing to change to custom modes with nothing more than a beep for a diagnostic. (Why powerstrip cannot un-check this automatically I don't know). The default settings for 1368x768 result in a loss of sync when used out the DVI port so I had to dork with them like IslandGuy did. This basically requires connecting VGA & DVI at the same time to see when the DVI port finds sync. PIP mode on the plasma makes this a little less painful, as you can watch your blank DVI input while configuring via the VGA input. I've got a setting that is pretty close to working right for me now:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1368x768=1368,24,112,296,768,14,6,29,86661,2304

Generic timing details for 1368x768:
HFP=24 HSW=112 HBP=296 kHz=48 VFP=14 VSW=6 VBP=29 Hz=59

Linux modeline parameters:
"1368x768" 86.661 1368 1384 1496 1792 768 782 788 817 +hsync +vsync

Just have to figure out how to fix the screen width. The display seems about 12 pixels too short, but I've been unable to fix this by changing the hor. refresh rate.

Now if only I could get 1368x768 working with MYHD as well...
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