Beware burn in is possible with LCD panels: My Sharp Aquos 30" has burn in ! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I did not think this was possible.
I have XM satellite radio and it goes into a static screen saver after a few minutes.
This screen saver has burned into my screen. I watch a variety of content so this is not something that was left in place for weeks at a time. The set is turned off every night but does get a good workout through out normal daily viewing hours. Nothing out of the ordinary that I would expect this burn to take place.

The burn is not uniform across the screen. Its a vertical band off center to the left but if you get close you can see it faintly across the whole screen.
This vertical band is clearly visible on all dark content and at mid bright level content.

I will try to take some pictures and post them tonight.

Beware burn in is possible with LCD panels.
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post #2 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:11 AM
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This is very disturbing news.

Are you sure it isn't some type of temporary effect which LCDs have been known for?
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post #3 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Bishamon

Its been there for a few months. I mean to post this sooner but I wanted to make sure it was not something temporary.
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post #4 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:28 AM
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Since there is quite a larger number of people in this forum who purchased LCD's almost specifically for their lack of burn-in and in such likely run feeds that are highly burn-in prone (HTPC, certain video games, etc.) and this is the first reliable source that has mentioned burn-in for an LCD, isn't it likely that Alan's set is individually defective rather than the technology as a whole being subject to burn in. I'm glad the person who first experienced it is a person of reliability, otherwise the poster would likely get flames suggesting he was just trying to put down a technology. However, I will still contend that this is likely a defective panel, not an emerging trend. If there is any evidence to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it, but in the mean time, best of luck to Alan with his display.
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post #5 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:30 AM
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I also reported burn-in on a Sharp LC30 LCD a few months ago:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...68#post3117468

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post #6 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Bishamon

Its been there for a few months. I mean to post this sooner but I wanted to make sure it was not something temporary.
Damn. Just as had I decided to sell my 43" DLP and opt for a 30" LCD, my worst fear is realized.

I wonder if this issue is specific to a certain type of LCD technology? The quest for faster response times and greater color depths may have had an unwanted side-effect. :(
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post #7 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:34 AM
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Here is a product claim:
"Burn-in No image burn-in."


http://www.sharpusa.com/products/lcd...,2340,,00.html

Contact Sharp. They say, "no burn in" then they should replace the unit if it indeed has burn-in.

Btw, I suspect you are seeing something other than burn-in. It sounds as if your screen may be receiving low voltage which is keeping the image displayed.

Unplug the set for several hours, then see if the image is still there ....
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post #8 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:51 AM
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I was *just* watching "What's Kewl at CES 2004" on HDNet and they were featuring the Sharp Aquos. He was adamant touting you DO NOT have to worry about burn-in on LCD panels as with plasma... $0.02
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post #9 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:52 AM
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Program also stated Sharp is coming out with a 45 inch 1920x1080p flat panel LCD display. Wow...
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post #10 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 09:57 AM
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Don't know if this is relevant, but I burned in an Samsung LCD monitor -- ironically by letting SETI@Home run as a "screen saver" for hours at a time. (Boy, was I steamed). I always understood that LCD burn-in was possible, though a lot less likely.
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post #11 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 10:16 AM
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LCDs are prone to burn-in, but I'm unaware as to the exact technical details and the time the image must remain present is literally orders of magnitude higher than with phosphor-based displays.

For example, the menu bar on Apple Macintosh computers can burn in on Apple's LCD flat panel displays but only after thousands of hours of use; the official fix is to display an inverse image for an amount of time equal to the time the static image was in place...
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post #12 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I did not think this was possible.
I watch a variety of content so this is not something that was left in place for weeks at a time. The set is turned off every night but does get a good workout through out normal daily viewing hours. Nothing out of the ordinary that I would expect this burn to take place.
*IF* true, I don't see how characterizing LCD burn-in risks as "...the time the image must remain present is literally orders of magnitude higher than with phosphor-based displays..." can have merit.
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post #13 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 12:37 PM
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Right, Tom... If this is indeed a real risk, it makes the "plasmas are super prone to burn in and should be avoided" argument even less meritorious than it is now.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #14 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 01:48 PM
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So is it a matter of certain crystals being "locked into place"?
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post #15 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 01:52 PM
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Not so much 'locked' as 'stuck', perhaps?
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post #16 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 04:04 PM
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If anyone other than Alan or Mark reported this, the insults would be flying. Kinda funny how no one repsonded to Marks thread. I have personally seen LCD burn in on Samsung and NEC desktop LCD monitors. A while back, Dell had to replace a boatload of laptops that got burn in. I guess my desire of leaving a TV on 24/7 with something like myHTPC running is looking less likely.

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post #17 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 04:44 PM
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Very interesting news.

I have a Samsung 17" SyncMaster (175v) comp screen that I have on with the windows start menu bar over 16 hours a day since I got the screen for Christmas in 2003, and so far, no complaints, but I will moniter it more closely now.

Reality for me is that even if the start menu bar eventually burns in, it wouldn't matter anyway since I only use this moniter for work anyway, and the start menu will always be there when the comp is on.

Regarding the screensaver, I assume it is a static image? I didn't think too many screensavers were static (as I thought one of the reasons they were originally invented to stop things like this on a CRT).

Of course, this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong. -- Dennis Miller

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post #18 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Chemist
If anyone other than Alan or Mark reported this, the insults would be flying. Kinda funny how no one repsonded to Marks thread. I have personally seen LCD burn in on Samsung and NEC desktop LCD monitors.
Not really. I've read messages from people reporting LCD burn-in on AVS forums in the past. I've never seen anyone come out and insult them for this. I recall a specific thread where the person posted pictures of the burn-in.
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post #19 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 07:24 PM
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Sorry to hear about this Alan. I would be interested in hearing what SHARP has to say if you contact them.
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post #20 of 76 Old 04-13-2004, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Roper
*IF* true, I don't see how characterizing LCD burn-in risks as "...the time the image must remain present is literally orders of magnitude higher than with phosphor-based displays..." can have merit.
I can't speak for the Sharp TV, but with the Apple flat panel LCD displays I was speaking of, you need to have around two years' worth of 40 hour weeks on it before the menu bar becomes visible as an after image...
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post #21 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kucharsk
I can't speak for the Sharp TV, but with the Apple flat panel LCD displays I was speaking of, you need to have around two years' worth of 40 hour weeks on it before the menu bar becomes visible as an after image...
That's just 4160 hours of total usage. I would not think you would be seeing burn-in problems on CRT or PLASMA or LCD with normal usage in that time frame either, not that it isn't possible...
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post #22 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 12:23 AM
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All types of display technologies are prone to burn in, just some more than others. My father used to have an old IBM 12" CRT monitor that had several lines of text that were burned into it. It took the better part of a decade for the text lines to fade away.

I too have heard people who have complained about burn in on LCD monitors, but only very rarely. My own rule of thumb is that if you are going to be away from your display and or drawing a static picture for more than 30 minutes, just turn it off.

Nonetheless, I'd definately talk to SHARP about it and see what they have to say. Is it still under warranty?

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post #23 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 01:56 AM
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I'm very intrigued by this. Since LCD panels do not use phosphor, what exactly is "burning in"? This image retention cannot be by the same mechanism as a CRT and plasma. Does anybody know? I don't doubt that there is image retention in this case, but I do doubt it's burn in.

Pixels in LCD panel can definitely become "stuck" or "lit" (for example when the tranistor shorts). Two things can go wrong with pixels, they can become either a permamently turned on or never become active (e.g. a black dot).

For a pattern to appear, the individual pixels making up the image would go bad. From what I remember of my EE classes, generally speaking there is no reason for tranistors to go bad over time.

It seems to me that what is described earlier is either caused by pixels going bad or some other mechanism.

Since there is no way the pixels would fail randomly in the shape of an image and how would a tranistor would develop a memory (anyone?) if someone is suggesting this is caused by failed pixels, how is this occuring?

It is important to mind since LCDs (TFT that is) uses a completely different process to display images saying that LCDs burn in like CRTs but are just less likely does not make any sense without explaining how this occurs.

If this isn't a pixel defect maybe it's manufacturer related (seems unlikely but frankly everything seems unlikely).

I'm not saying LCDs don't retain images, but it's certainly not "burn-in" in a CRT sense.

Since this is an extremely widely used technology someone must know.
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post #24 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by genietime
Since there is no way the pixels would fail randomly in the shape of an image and how would a tranistor would develop a memory (anyone?) if someone is suggesting this is caused by failed pixels, how is this occuring?

Since this is an extremely widely used technology someone must know.
We know an independent flat-panel servicer who stays busy replacing LCD screens that burn in. The manufacturer [not necessarily the one named in this thread] contracts him out to trade out screens in transportation hubs and control rooms. The manufacturer made the "no burn-in" claim - along with lowball pricing - to win multiple-screen contracts. Now they find they must back up that claim the hard way.

I asked the servicer what caused the burn-in of the static lines, graphics and fonts onto the LCD screens. He believes it has something to do with the nature of LCD: twisting molecules that alternate states of translucence / opacity within each subpixel. Over time, if they've been too busy, the molecules loose their ability to get as translucent as quickly as when new.

He points out that the manufacturer's service department would not answer this question in their training. It's only his guess based on independent study.

We know that phosphor-based displays burn in if misused. 70 years experience helps us understand why. LCD's take longer to burn in and may be appropriate for applications requiring graphics or words to remain on screen for long periods. However, as we see from Alan's story, they are not the "worry-free" medium LCD screen makers claim them to be.

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post #25 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 03:48 AM
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I wonder if there is a contrast relationship as with uncalibrated plasmas. (Never had an issue with my plasma after long use and not extraordinary precautions, e.g., I always watch 4:3 material in OAR with balck bars). But if anyone had properly calibrated LCDs it would be Alan & rogo.

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post #26 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 06:42 AM
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I say, "play it safe" -- keep the stationary images off the screens. My concerns about LCD technology are related to the amount of heat these panels are subjected to both tempeature and cumulative. They get quite warm. Heat is not the friend of plastics and fragile technologies. Toshiba's 26" and 32" LCD screens have fans to draw the heat out though the top and the cabinets are a bit thicker than a lot of LCD TVs. While "thin is in", I suspect a little added distance between the backlight and the LCD panel is good thing and may contribute to some added longevity.
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post #27 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 07:30 AM
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Alan--- How old is the LCD panel?

If anything, you would expect that the Windows Start button would burn itself into a display. My work panel is a year old with 50 hours/week and I can't see a hint of the task bar. I've got an IBM LCD panel at home that is 3-4 years old, I'll look closely, but I don't think it has the taskbar burned in either.

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post #28 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 09:05 AM
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FWIW, from Keohi HDTV:

"Burn-in or Screen-Burn with LCD Monitors

Burn-in like effect does happen with LCD monitors but they are correctable as Guy explains below:

"The burn-in like effects refer to a memory effect which can affect LCD displays. It isn't a permanent effect like that which happens with emissive phosphors.

Basically, the liquid crystal displays work by using electrical forces to align liquid crystal molecules into a coherent direction which causes a predictable and controlled polarization of light. Combining that with crossed, fixed polarizers, light filters and a light source allows one to create the color images we see on LCD's. The one part of this which gets forgotten is that the relaxed, incoherent state of the liquid crystal must be returned to after the control charges are done.

If a LC panel holds a portion of the liquid crystal in the coherent state (black on screen) the liquid crystal material can temporarily develop a tendency to stay in a more organized manner than normal. Thus long term black on a LC display may create an area which holds a persistent image effect that looks like a phosphor burn. Fortunately, if the LC panel is allowed to be quiescent (off) for an extended time, perhaps one or two days, the liquid crystal regains its normal characteristics. The effect reverses and the apparent "wear" or "burn" goes away. Another mechanism I've run across, but haven't verified, is a temporary charge problem on the driving transistors. Again leaving the panel off corrects the problem."

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/exper...urnin_lcd.html


Like I said, unplug it for a while.
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post #29 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 09:35 AM
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Acura CL -- Now that makes sense. After my post, I saw that article this morning when I googled too ;)

I'd be really curious to see what the results were after having the panel completely disconnected for a couple of days.

-- Can you give that a shot and post the results?
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post #30 of 76 Old 04-14-2004, 09:59 AM
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I run a lot of 4:3 on mine. If anything should develop, I'd try the unplugging bit.

I'm not really concerned, however.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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