Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 2847 Old 07-11-2005, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subysouth
When objects go in motion the eye is darting around trying to track as much of the available motion as possible and its ability to finely resolve single points drops dramatically unless you are instucting yourself to focus on a particular area. In normal viewing of motion images your eyes perceived resolution drops.
You are absolutely right in this. Full resolution is only needed with very still (fixed) shots.
In fact the center in fovea in eye, where the sharpest vision is, has only couple of hundreds pixels of resolution per dimension.
It's just about where you point this sharpest area of vision (just few degrees of field of vision).

Actually, if everybody would always watch the same part of picture, it would be very easy to implemet very efficient adaptive resolution compression. But we are individuals...

And sorry if I sounded a bit too controversy, I'm not really trying to argue anything, just wondered a bit too much offtopic to chat about theoretics of "natural picture display"... :)
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post #362 of 2847 Old 07-11-2005, 07:14 PM
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For pixelated displays, the 1 arcminute rule seems to be a reasonable guide for getting the most out of your display. Too much closer and you are just seeing more pixellation. Too much farther and you are not resolving the image to the capability of the display.

Depending what your setup is, your seating distance and screen size will define a coordinate in the plane of the figure. For example, if you are at 12 feet, and have a 50" display, will having 1080 be any better than 720 ? On average, probably not.
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post #363 of 2847 Old 07-11-2005, 07:14 PM
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They say that Ted Williams had the best vision of anyone when he went into the service--20/12--and he claimed he could actually see the seams on a moving baseball. How much more resolution could you appreciate with such vision? Does anyone know what member of the animal species has the best still vision and moving vision? Is it an eagle or a falcon or a hawk? Could a cat see more shadow detail in a very dark scene than a human if the display was good enough? If a dog was buying a surround sound system would he want it to be able to deliver the sounds that he can hear that humans can't? If one day through bionic engineering our senses do come this acute will the Video Display Industry kill themselves?
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post #364 of 2847 Old 07-11-2005, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke
You are absolutely right in this. Full resolution is only needed with very still (fixed) shots.
In fact the center in fovea in eye, where the sharpest vision is, has only couple of hundreds pixels of resolution per dimension.
It's just about where you point this sharpest area of vision (just few degrees of field of vision).

Actually, if everybody would always watch the same part of picture, it would be very easy to implemet very efficient adaptive resolution compression. But we are individuals...

And sorry if I sounded a bit too controversy, I'm not really trying to argue anything, just wondered a bit too much offtopic to chat about theoretics of "natural picture display"... :)
Gotcha :cool:

ss
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post #365 of 2847 Old 07-11-2005, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
For pixelated displays, the 1 arcminute rule seems to be a reasonable guide for getting the most out of your display. Too much closer and you are just seeing more pixellation. Too much farther and you are not resolving the image to the capability of the display.

Depending what your setup is, your seating distance and screen size will define a coordinate in the plane of the figure. For example, if you are at 12 feet, and have a 50" display, will having 1080 be any better than 720 ? On average, probably not.
You'd have to have superior vision to see all the detail on the 1280x720 at 12', the 1920x1080 is out of the question at that distance.

Using my rather rough math, you'd want to be viewing that 720p 50" at about 9' to see all the detail.

ss
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post #366 of 2847 Old 07-11-2005, 11:01 PM
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Yes, the 768 line on the graph crosses the 50" y value at about 9'.
I just chose 12' as an example beyond the line, since some have better than 20/20.

For 20/20 at 12', to see all the detail on a 1366x768 display, you would need a 65" display.
For 1920x1080, you need a 95" display (a projector).
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post #367 of 2847 Old 07-14-2005, 03:02 AM
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http://www.areadvd.de/news/2005/2005...20050001.shtml

SED panel pilot production programme is scheduled to begin in August 2005 in Hiratsuka, Japan. Chain production of finalised SED devices will begin during the first semester of 2006, with an estimated capacity of 3,000 units/month. In January 2007, a second plant will be opened in Himeji, Japan, with an initial capacity of 15,000 units/month, which will ramp up to its full capacity of 70,000 units/month by the end of 2007.

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post #368 of 2847 Old 07-14-2005, 03:38 AM
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Not sure how up to date the area-dvd information is, since they still quote the "old" contrast ratio of 8k:1 instead of the new one of 100k:1.
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post #369 of 2847 Old 07-14-2005, 09:58 AM
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Whats a pilot program? Are people going to be buying those sets or are they just for testing puproses only and not sold to public?

If production starts in the first semester of 2006 how long will it take for the tv's to be sold in stores? Is there any chance of me walking into a retail store and seeing one of these displays in 2006?

Well even if I can't see them for myself I guess we will start seeing some more reviews and pictures.

Woohooo! This fantasy display of the future will be here soon! I know, I know they will be expensive and might have some initial problems but it's still exciting.
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post #370 of 2847 Old 07-14-2005, 10:42 AM
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These are the exact same dates we've read before.

FWIW, I imagine that at 3,000 units per month, a few might start coming to the U.S. at very limited outlets.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #371 of 2847 Old 07-14-2005, 01:00 PM
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Thats the exciting part, its still the same dates we heard before. No delays!

I don't want to buy one anytime soon, but I sure can't wait to see them.

Can't wait to see a HD-DVD (or bluray) player hooked up to a SED playing LOTR!
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post #372 of 2847 Old 07-15-2005, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srohde
Can't wait to see a HD-DVD (or bluray) player hooked up to a SED playing LOTR!
Yep after all the numbers are hashed, thats whats its all about. :)

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post #373 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
These are the exact same dates we've read before.

FWIW, I imagine that at 3,000 units per month, a few might start coming to the U.S. at very limited outlets.
Or maybe they expect the Japanese high-end market to absorb all that initial production run.

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post #374 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert
Or maybe they expect the Japanese high-end market to absorb all that initial production run.
Yeah, it might be easier to fix all the faults in the first shipments, if they are near the factory... ;)
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post #375 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert
Or maybe they expect the Japanese high-end market to absorb all that initial production run.
It's possible. Sharp is releasing its 65-inch LCD in Japan and then quickly following up with a U.S. release in small numbers. Toshiba has launced a new product -- LCOS -- here before.

I don't know their plans but they really need to establish the technology here in the minds of buyers and such, which is why I guessed it would come here in small numbers.

I think buying one in the first six months is entirely insane anyway.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #376 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry if this is a re-post (from 7/14/05):

TV Screens Face A Dazzling New Rival
SED displays rival plasma and LCDs, but mass production may be a problem

In the TV industry, no debate is better rehearsed than the squabble over the relative merits of plasma and liquid-crystal displays. Both are flat, but plasma proponents tell you their technology is better for larger TVs, while LCD lovers say their screens offer higher-resolution and lower power consumption. Advertisement

The debaters may have to come up with a new set of arguments. By yearend, SED Inc., a joint venture between Canon Inc. (CAJ ) and Toshiba Corp. (TOSBF ), will begin producing screens for a new kind of flat television. The companies say the technology -- called surface-conduction electron-emitter display, or SED for short -- offers better images than rival systems while consuming one-third the power used by plasma and about half that of LCDs. "We believe the partnership will be a big success," says Canon President Fujio Mitarai.

To prove it, Canon trots out a 36-inch prototype at its Hiratsuka plant near Tokyo. Dark colors appear richer than those on LCDs, while letters crossing the screen are far clearer than with plasma displays. The only place where SED appears less crisp than rivals is in brightly lit rooms -- the kind you might find at an electronics store. "In the living room, I don't think there will be a big difference," says Shunichi Uzawa, president of SED Inc.

With SEDs, the companies have combined the sharp resolution of traditional tube TVs with the size and weight of flat screens. While most experts say CRTs offer a better image than plasma or LCD, the picture tends to deteriorate toward the edge of the screen, and they look clunky next to sleek flat panels. CRTs use a single big picture tube that's almost as deep as it is high. SEDs, by contrast, give each pixel -- or dot of color -- its own tiny electron source, effectively creating thousands of CRTs. That means the screens can be just a few centimeters thick, and picture quality is as crisp at the corners as it is in the center. "The performance of SEDs is outstanding," says Hisakazu Torii, an analyst at market researcher DisplaySearch.

LESS IS MORE EXPENSIVE
Yet for all of SED's apparent advantages, rival technologies don't yet have much to fear. For one thing, it will take Canon and Toshiba years to reach mass production. The companies won't get beyond 75,000 SED TVs a month before 2008 and are predicting 250,000 a month in 2010. By contrast, Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. (MC ) alone plans to produce 400,000 plasma TVs monthly by the end of 2006. "SED is an excellent technology, but there is a long way to go before it can be mass-produced," says Takeshi Uenoyama, director of Panasonic's Advanced Technology Research Laboratories.

Size problems and manufacturing costs may be bigger concerns. SED Inc. will initially produce panels for 50-inch TVs and expects to make 40-inch models sometime later. But making smaller screens means squeezing each pixel and its electron gun closer together, which adds complexity and cost. And TV prices are in free fall. DisplaySearch expects 50-inch plasma prices to tumble by 30% this year, while LCDs are dropping even faster. "I cannot see [SEDs] selling alongside existing plasma technology for the same price for the same screen size," says Paul O'Donovan, an analyst with researcher Gartner Dataquest.

SED Inc.'s Uzawa says SEDs will be "competitive" but admits that their introduction has been postponed as Canon and Toshiba have struggled to bring down production costs. Indeed, Canon has been working on SEDs since 1984. Satomi Ushioda, an analyst at Nikko Citigroup (C ) in Tokyo, predicts there could be further delays -- especially since the companies aren't willing to share the technology with other manufacturers, which could help lower costs. That might disappoint consumers with an eye for great pictures. But it would give plasma and LCD makers lots of time to hone new arguments before SED makes its debut.



By Ian Rowley in Hiratsuka, Japan
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post #377 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 01:24 PM
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I think that some us nicely the very same skeptical arguments many of us have espoused for a long time:

(1) Volume won't come easy and it's comically small compared to competitiors. The corollary is that learning-curve pricing effects overwhelmingly favor plasma and LCD.

(2) Saying and doing are two different things.

(3) Delays could still come.

(4) Pricing will, indeed, be higher for the foreseeable future. The only way to get pricing down is volume.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #378 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
Sorry if this is a re-post (from 7/14/05):

TV Screens Face A Dazzling New Rival
......

"SED is an excellent technology, but there is a long way to go before it can be mass-produced," says Takeshi Uenoyama, director of Panasonic's Advanced Technology Research Laboratories.

.......

Satomi Ushioda, an analyst at Nikko Citigroup (C ) in Tokyo, predicts there could be further delays -- especially since the companies aren't willing to share the technology with other manufacturers, which could help lower costs.

.......


By Ian Rowley in Hiratsuka, Japan
I see an extended hand, I hope Canon/Toshiba do not wait too long to change their minds.

Best article I have read to date on the subject, thanks for linking wojtek.

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post #379 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 02:14 PM
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But making smaller screens means squeezing each pixel and its electron gun closer together, which adds complexity and cost.
Why not just make EDTV SED's and pass them off on unsuspecting buyers like they do with Plasma?

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post #380 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lorenzow
Why not just make EDTV SED's and pass them off on unsuspecting buyers like they do with Plasma?
I wouldnt mind ED or 1280x720 SEDs.

And I dont think ED plasma buyers are "unsuspecting," I would say "wise" in most cases.

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post #381 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subysouth
I wouldnt mind ED or 1280x720 SEDs.

ss
I would definitely consider 720p SED. Maybe, if there is a significant price differential, Toshiba would be smart to offer lower resolution. It might give them quicker acceptance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subysouth
And I dont think ED plasma buyers are "unsuspecting," I would say "wise" in most cases.
ss
Consumers may be wise if they know what they are getting and make an informed choice. That is not always easy for everyone to do and product labelling does not make it any easier. Many consumers are wowed by flat panel and buy based on price.

Larry
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post #382 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 07:30 PM
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The real genius stroke would be for Canon/Toshiba to buy out Fujitsu--keep the Fujitsu name on their plasmas and rebadge 1080p SED vToshiba/Canon versions with the Fujitsu name while having the 720p SED versions badged as Toshiba/Canon. Guaranteed market success! Hitachi probably wouldn't let it happen but say Hitachi merged with Canon/Toshiba/Fujitsu--I bet Panasonic would feel the pressure then! I don't think the cheap Koreans or the Chinese could challenge such a juggernaut and it wouldn't be easy for the remaining Japanese companies either! All of this is just pie in the sky speculation you say: Probably, but don't think there aren't buisness people at all of these companies who don't think about mergers and in the future maybe not the combination I've outlined here but surely consoliation of some point is probable to combat the Koreans/Chinese.
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post #383 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 08:07 PM
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My guess is that manufacturing issues related to starting to build a brand-new product at the very beginnng of the learning curve would make them expensive regardless of the resolution, so if you can make a 1080 panel it gives you something for "numbers conscious" consumers to use to justify the higher price. Plus, by the time they are able to make enough volume for it to really matter 1080 will likely be common with LCD and maybe even plasma; thus introducing a 720 panel would look like a backwards move in many consumers eyes.

None of these recent articles talk about panel life or burn-in, which seemed to be issues early on; and though they remarked that the panel is not as bright as plasma, they didn't quote any actual brightness spec. Anyone have any up-to-date info in these areas? A 50" 1080p SED would be perfect for me (assuming the cost isn't astronomically higher than plasma), and I will probably be waiting a while to buy anyway; but I am curious about any other possible downsides.

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post #384 of 2847 Old 07-18-2005, 09:31 PM
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My guess is that panel life will be inferior to plasma and LCD, at least for the first couple of generations. But I suspect they will quote 30K hours.

Burn in risk will be real, but limited, a la plasma.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #385 of 2847 Old 07-25-2005, 05:30 AM
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http://www.plasmareview.fr/print.php3?id_article=475

They do give 30,000-hour panel life, which is expected to increase eventually to 40,000.

Commercial release in Japan, end March 2006. No firm date for the rest of the world, but according to some "insider info", it'll be at the end of that year.

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post #386 of 2847 Old 07-25-2005, 05:48 AM
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Buying Fujitsu would get them a name and not much else. Fujitsu's marketing and distribution are pathetic.

As for SED starting with 40 and 50 inch models, they are playing to plasma's strength, a big mistake IMO. They need to start with 60-80 inch models, where their higher resolution will be more appreciated, the competition less, and the profit margin much higher.

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post #387 of 2847 Old 07-25-2005, 06:07 AM
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Not having to worry about burn-out would be great.

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post #388 of 2847 Old 07-25-2005, 10:10 AM
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I would imagine the panel life would be comparable to that of a modern tube CRT. Is there any reason why it would be lesser/greater?
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post #389 of 2847 Old 07-25-2005, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcalibur_255
I would imagine the panel life would be comparable to that of a modern tube CRT. Is there any reason why it would be lesser/greater?
While the SED approach is similar to CRTs in certain ways, the actual phosphors and technique of lighting them are different enough that the lifespans are not coupled with CRTs.

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post #390 of 2847 Old 07-25-2005, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901
As for SED starting with 40 and 50 inch models, they are playing to plasma's strength, a big mistake IMO. They need to start with 60-80 inch models, where their higher resolution will be more appreciated, the competition less, and the profit margin much higher.
If they were here six onths ago, 50" might have been good. You may be right that going higher now might be a better idea. However long term, the 50" panel IMO is gonna be the sweet spot for widescreen displays. Big but not too big.

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