Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband
Hi Mark
That graph shows that if you watch your set right at the middle of brightness (apl) the wattage is SED (125 watts) plasma (350 watts) LCD (200 watts) I would say that is one third of plasma power consumption. I would say that were going into an energy consious times and we need earth friendly devices. I have read that plasma is working hard in this area (lower energy consumption). I'd say that if SED works out its an exiting new technology.
Sorry, but you can't simply use that 350 watts number for plasma, it's just not true. Real life measurements are *MUCH* lower.
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post #632 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Sorry, but you can't simply use that 350 watts number for plasma, it's just not true. Real life measurements are *MUCH* lower.
Do you homework first before responding.
Google search this website if link doesn't work.
Google search "jetro trends and topics SED ultra flat panel television

Lets see if this works: http://www.jetro.go.ip/en/market/tre...1_ufpanel.html
I don't know why I can't make link work. If you disagree with the jetro website why don't you write them and tell them its not a real life graph they put up there.

These are just my opinions.
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post #633 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband
Do you homework first before responding.
Google search this website if link doesn't work.
Google search "jetro trends and topics SED ultra flat panel television

Lets see if this works: http://www.jetro.go.ip/en/market/tre...1_ufpanel.html
I've done my homework. Please read this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...er+consumption

You'll notice that real life power consumption for 42" Panasonic plasma displays was measured to be about 140W on average. RichB measured even his 65" Panasonic plasma to consume less than those 350W you stated.
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post #634 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
I've done my homework. Please read this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...er+consumption

You'll notice that real life power consumption for 42" Panasonic plasma displays was measured to be about 140W on average. RichB measured even his 65" Panasonic plasma to consume less than those 350W you stated.
Sorry but I think I'll take a Japanesse enginering firms information before I will a individual member plasma owner. I know the manufactuers are working on lowering power consumption by half on the new panels but lets seek the "real truth". Like I said write jetro and dispute there graph. Also I urge others here because I've seen how passionate this issue is to them. Please look at it and dispute this graph if there wrong.

These are just my opinions.
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post #635 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 07:39 AM
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Your jetro link doesn't work for me.
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post #636 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 07:47 AM
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I know that. Do a google search on "jetro trends and topics SED ultra flat panel television"

These are just my opinions.
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post #637 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 08:05 AM
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Ah yes, found it. Did JETRO have a SED display in a comparable size to Plasma and LCD to really test the power consumption claims? It very much doesn't look like that to me. Which exact plasma and LCD display is that "article" comparing to, anyway? Current generation? Previous generation? White box or brand?

You'll find very similar texts as that on JETRO on multiple other internet sites. It's the technical & marketing information SED Inc. gave out. Sure, there might be some truth to it. But as usual, you shouldn't believe all what marketing is claiming, unless you were able to test it yourself (or have it actually tested by some independent reviewers).

Personally, I believe the real life measurements of forum users more than the marketing department of a manufacturer which competes against LCD and plasma.
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post #638 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi


Personally, I believe the real life measurements of forum users more than the marketing department of a manufacturer which competes against LCD and plasma.
Ah yes lets trust measuremnts from the basements of plasma owners. Maybe I need to get on the bandwagon and stop believing enginering firms that have an agenda and go with the crowd here.

These are just my opinions.
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post #639 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband
Ah yes lets trust measuremnts from the basements of plasma owners. Maybe I need to get on the bandwagon and stop believing enginering firms that have an agenda and go with the crowd here.
http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/tre...1_ufpanel.html
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000150026155/
http://homepage.mac.com/okkibokki/ib...0050912110153/
http://www.graskinhometheatre.bigste...generic80.html
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-...ws.php?id=8328

I could go on and on. All over the web the same information is posted again and again. All sites claim SED power consumption is lower. Some say it's 1/3rd that of plasma. Others say it's half that of plasmas, again others say it's 1/3rd lower than plasma. None of those sites had a SED display in their own labs to actually verify that. They are all just citing the information fed to them by SED Inc. Here's what Canon sais themselves:

http://www.canon.com/technology/display/

Quote:
SEDs convert electrical energy into light with a higher emission efficiency than other display types, resulting in power consumption that is two-thirds that of PDPs, and also surpasses CRTs and LCDs
If you want to believe the SED marketing hype, before anyone has ever had the chance to test a SED display in their own lab, comparing them to plasma and LCD displays of their own choice, then by all means go ahead and believe it. Personally, I'm hopeful that SED will prove to be as good as SED Inc. claims, but I'm waiting until it's confirmed by some real reviews (or until I've had the chance to test it myself), before I claim it as fact.
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post #640 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
I'm waiting until it's confirmed by some real reviews (or until I've had the chance to test it myself), before I claim it as fact.
Well I'll compromise with you here. Just because its on the internet doesn't make it fact. Now answer this one. Why have the plasma manufactuers got together to make a panel half the power of the current ones today? Just maybe something to it? Like I've said before dispute the graph not me. Trust me I'm on the opposite side of the issue here with you guys, and I do have some backgound on power and I would like lower powered devices for enviroments intrests.

These are just my opinions.
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post #641 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband
Why have the plasma manufactuers got together to make a panel half the power of the current ones today? Just maybe something to it?
Plasma manufacturers claim they have identical (or even lower) power consumption in their latest gen panels compared to the LCD competition. However, LCD technology is improving steadily and besides PQ improvements there are also development which may lead to lower power consumption LCD than it's now. So plasma manufacturers need to keep working on power consumption to stay competitive.

I've recently read that one of the plasma development guys said that fluorescent tubes have a much better power efficiency than plasma displays, while being based on the same basic model. So this guy said: Why is that? We should improve on that! And that's when Panasonic, Pioneer and Hitachi decided to work together on improving efficiency. The first result of this is the prototype you're talking about with half power consumption of today's displays.
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post #642 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband
Well I'll compromise with you here. Just because its on the internet doesn't make it fact. Now answer this one. Why have the plasma manufactuers got together to make a panel half the power of the current ones today? Just maybe something to it? Like I've said before dispute the graph not me. Trust me I'm on the opposite side of the issue here with you guys, and I do have some backgound on power and I would like lower powered devices for enviroments intrests.
I've got a great idea for you to save power & the planet when watching those juice guzzling displays...you could hook up your TV to one of those bicycle operated generators, similar to the ones used back on the Pacific Islands in WWII. Imagine it. watch some TV, save the planet, and loose some weight all at the same time!
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post #643 of 2847 Old 11-06-2005, 07:33 PM
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Lets see if we can bring the intellect level up a notch from the previous post. Theres a popular thread here from the "plasma power level is less than you think crowd" and I believe this could be where they can prove it. Lets just not say "I don't believe it" lets get to the bottom of it here. The Jetro link has a graph of power consumption vs. image brightness. It shows that plasma hits the peak power rather quickly on a display. Lets find out about when plasma hits its peak at what level. The image brightness from the graph is what to dispute here. Anybody what to prove this graph wrong?

These are just my opinions.
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post #644 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 09:51 AM
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Hey y'all. Did you read this? Popular Science awarded SED the Best of What's New in 2005 award. The article says to expect the first 50 inch displays in the first quarter of 2006. If that's not a typo, it's pretty damn exciting!!

Here's the link:

http://www.hdbeat.com/2005/11/16/sed...-of-whats-new/
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post #645 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 10:02 AM
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I hope SED has something worthwhile at the CES 2006 in the first week of Jan!
Should be an interesting year with SED, HD/Blue-Ray DVD, 1080p plasmas, Dolby True HD, etc.

Bring'em on :)
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post #646 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 10:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashti
Hey y'all. Did you read this? Popular Science awarded SED the Best of What's New in 2005 award. The article says to expect the first 50 inch displays in the first quarter of 2006. If that's not a typo, it's pretty damn exciting!!

Here's the link:

http://www.hdbeat.com/2005/11/16/sed...-of-whats-new/
My level of "excitement" will correspond to the MSRP for one of these panels. ;)

does anyone know how much they will cost?
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post #647 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 11:06 AM
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When it comes to comparing LCDs with Plasma it's often an apple/oranges comparison in that each has it's own set of strengths, PQ-wise (and considering viewing environments and use).

But when it comes to Plasma/SED, I'm having trouble thinking of any area in which plasma could have an advantage over SED. It seems SED would equal or trump plasma in every area - resolution (equal with upcoming 1080p plasmas), color (as good as better, one would expect), brightness (isn't SED supposed to be pretty bright?), contrast (SED smacks plasma, and we haven't heard any rumours of plasma significantly increasing black levels soon) etc. And both offer the same fixed pixel benefits in terms of geometry/focus.

What do you folks think? Anything I'm missing? PQ-wise does it not seem a slam dunk for SED over plasma?

Cheers,
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post #648 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 11:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness
When it comes to comparing LCDs with Plasma it's often an apple/oranges comparison in that each has it's own set of strengths, PQ-wise (and considering viewing environments and use).

But when it comes to Plasma/SED, I'm having trouble thinking of any area in which plasma could have an advantage over SED. It seems SED would equal or trump plasma in every area - resolution (equal with upcoming 1080p plasmas), color (as good as better, one would expect), brightness (isn't SED supposed to be pretty bright?), contrast (SED smacks plasma, and we haven't heard any rumours of plasma significantly increasing black levels soon) etc. And both offer the same fixed pixel benefits in terms of geometry/focus.

What do you folks think? Anything I'm missing? PQ-wise does it not seem a slam dunk for SED over plasma?

Cheers,
Price "may" be the only area in which plasma beats SED.
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post #649 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 11:16 AM
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If SED works as is claimed, I would guess plasma will remain only because of lower price and maybe size at first. By the end of the decade, if Canon/Toshiba have their way, plasmas may be a thing of the past - or soon to be. It will be interesting to see what "bottom dollar" is for the top of the line 50" plasma in 2010.

larry

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post #650 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness
Anything I'm missing? Cheers,
1 ms response time! :D

"The first panels to hit the market will have a 50in visible diagonal size and, in Toshiba's own words, the key points of SED as it enters its commercial phase look like this:
* Ultra-flat design
* High contrast
* Razor-sharp moving pictures thanks to fast response times
* Natural colours due to the use of phosphor coating with the same attribute as CRT
* No backlighting needed, so no distortion even from acute view angles
* Accurate convergence, geometry and linearity owing to direct pixel addressing
* Low power consumption "

Probably be a few thousand higher than comparable plasmas in 06 and then in 07/08.... lookout ... :D
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post #651 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 12:45 PM
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So what about this first quarter 2006 date mentioned in the HD Beat article? I'd always heard we'd be seeing them in 2007. You think they could be right? If so, I'm definitely waiting to see what SED brings. Either it will be the thing I want to buy or at least, it should drive other technologies' prices down. Either way, it's a win.
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post #652 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 12:55 PM
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Vashti, from what I've read the initial 2006 sets will primarily only be available in Japan. North America won't get them until later in 2006 or early 2007 ;)

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #653 of 2847 Old 11-16-2005, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness
But when it comes to Plasma/SED, I'm having trouble thinking of any area in which plasma could have an advantage over SED. It seems SED would equal or trump plasma in every area - resolution (equal with upcoming 1080p plasmas), color (as good as better, one would expect), brightness (isn't SED supposed to be pretty bright?), contrast (SED smacks plasma, and we haven't heard any rumours of plasma significantly increasing black levels soon) etc. And both offer the same fixed pixel benefits in terms of geometry/focus.

What do you folks think? Anything I'm missing? PQ-wise does it not seem a slam dunk for SED over plasma?
SED displays are not very bright. They fight to achieve 500 cd/m² for the production units, while some plasmas are already over 1000 cd/m². However, personally I don't care. 500 cd/m² is plenty bright enough for me, since I like to watch in dark rooms.

Another thing I'm not sure about is reflections. The last report I've read indicated that SED currently has a lot of problems with reflections, even more so than plasma displays. Maybe SED will be able to work on that. But I don't know whether SED can replace the front glass with film, like some plasma manufacturers already did.

Finally, we don't know yet whether the first SED screens will really be as good balanced as we hope. Maybe they'll have problems with shadow detail (despite having great black levels), or maybe the colors will be off. Maybe SED will need a year or two to sort all first generation problems out. SED might introduce new problems no other displays ever had. Who knows?

Anyway, if they get it all right, then I'm all for it!
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post #654 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 05:37 AM
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All of these points have my concern as well, and I could add a few more. While I'm excited about this new video tech, I've been through this rose garden path before w/hyped up marketing promises from electronic mfg'ers and it leaves me skeptical & cautious as to my expectations. Hopefully, the next CES will shed some light on SED, but there's still so much info needed that can only be properly addressed when these displays are actually in the Stores. I don't mean to throw cold water on the SED bonfire, but am only cautious in regards to all the unproven claims.
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post #655 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 06:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
All of these points have my concern as well, and I could add a few more. While I'm excited about this new video tech, I've been through this rose garden path before w/hyped up marketing promises from electronic mfg'ers and it leaves me skeptical & cautious as to my expectations. Hopefully, the next CES will shed some light on SED, but there's still so much info needed that can only be properly addressed when these displays are actually in the Stores. I don't mean to throw cold water on the SED bonfire, but am only cautious in regards to all the unproven claims.
Given the fact that Toshiba/Canon have invested billion$ to bring this product to market... my assumption is SED will live up to the pre-release "hype" that surrounds it. I'd be wary of the 1st generation release, but by the time these "Ferrari" priced TV's become more like an affordable Honda Accord, most of the "bugs" will be worked out.
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post #656 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
Given the fact that Toshiba/Canon have invested billion$ to bring this product to market... my assumption is SED will live up to the pre-release "hype" that surrounds it. I'd be wary of the 1st generation release, but by the time these "Ferrari" priced TV's become more like an affordable Honda Accord, most of the "bugs" will be worked out.
And they've already demo'd working units. It's not like it some type of tech that they successully conjured up on a 1" display in the lab.

larry

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post #657 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 06:56 AM
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Well, as far as I've read, they're planning to show first real production samples in 55" during CES Jan/2006. So hopefully we'll get some more information then.
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post #658 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Well, as far as I've read, they're planning to show first real production samples in 55" during CES Jan/2006. So hopefully we'll get some more information then.
January just can't come fast enough! :D

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #659 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 08:59 AM
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RE: CES 2006

If we do some searching on the site, I have yet to find anything about "SED, Inc." or Toshiba or Canon that relates to SED HDTV?

Maybe I don't know how to search properly, or maybe they are not yet listed?
I would think if SED, Inc was going to be displaying something it would have been listed somewhere. :(

http://www.cesweb.org/attendees/directory/default.asp
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post #660 of 2847 Old 11-17-2005, 09:25 AM
 
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Both Toshiba & Canon are listed on the "2006 International CES Exhibitor Directory," however no consumer products have been specified. I suspect it's a "wee bit" too early for that.
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