Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 02:27 PM
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Navychop:

The word you want to use is discrete not digital. It's certainly not digital. I think mark would find that word acceptable.
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post #722 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 03:29 PM
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navychop, assjack1 - I was just asking, I guess it boils down to addressing pixels simultaneously and with a string of 1's and 0's - so that the brightness levels of each pixel in SED are digitally quantized.
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post #723 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 03:52 PM
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Mark:

The way I read Navychop's post is that CRT can blast electrons pretty much anywhere the gun is directed to. He calls this analog. (I believe he is ignoring shadow masks and things like that). SED, Plasma, and LCD are discrete in sampling (e.g. "a pixel").

I did not consider his point of radiance exitance comming off the SED as quanitzed. Even if that were the case there will always be variability in the amount of photons comming out regardless.

Just trying to help.
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post #724 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
Why would you call SED a digital device ? Just because it has pixels, does that make it digital ?

Now, does SED digitize the number of electrons emitted onto a phosphor pixel (i.e. brightness of a pixel) by either digitizing the time interval or the current ?
I’ve gone through this digital vs analog debate several times and it all boils down to terminology. The display industry has adopted the term digital to describe three distinct scenarios.

1 – Display accepts digital signals

2 – Display has a discrete pixel array

3 – Display reproduces grayscale using pulses (ie pulse-width-modulation, or ADS)


Although all display types (HD CRTs included) are labeled “digital†by industry I would have to say that a CRT with a digital decoder is still an analog display. And of all the display technologies the most digital would be Plasma which uses ADS.

Since SED can use voltage modulation it may be possible to address it directly with an analog signal but this will likely not be the case. If you have evidence to the contrary please let me know.

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post #725 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
navychop, assjack1 - I was just asking, I guess it boils down to addressing pixels simultaneously and with a string of 1's and 0's - so that the brightness levels of each pixel in SED are digitally quantized.
Actually pixels in digital displays are not addressed simultaneously. They are addressed line-by-line in a sequential fashion. They are however, activated simultaneously.

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post #726 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1
Mark:

The way I read Navychop's post is that CRT can blast electrons pretty much anywhere the gun is directed to. He calls this analog.
CRTs are considered analog because the analog signal does not ever have to undergo A/D conversion. One continuously variable analog signal is interpreted, and represented directly to the screen using a single continously variable electron source.

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post #727 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 04:48 PM
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I agree with you, especially with monochrome CRT's. But, with color wouldn't the use of shadow masks negate the analog paradigm though? Using those defines the overall resolution on any color CRT display.
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post #728 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1
I agree with you, especially with monochrome CRT's. But, with color wouldn't the use of shadow masks negate the analog paradigm though? Using those defines the overall resolution on any color CRT display.
Even with a shadow mask the resolution could theoretically be infinite if the focus of the electron beam was infinitely small. And even with todays CRTs the analog signal may produce a spatially variable luminence in one phosphor dot. I can see this easily using a magnifying glass on my CRT.

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post #729 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox
Even with a shadow mask the resolution could theoretically be infinite if the focus of the electron beam was infinitely small.
Please, explain this to me.

I fully agree with you if it were monochrome (oscilloscope, or stroker designs). My understading is that the mask, or aperture grill, creates the individual elements (3 colors/pixels) and has black walls (e.g. rips surrounding them). Masks are usually hex packed, and by definition you will always have a fill factor less than 100%. Aperture grills have thin ribs between verticle lines. Both are still finite regardless if you make the beam infinately small.

I only have three Sony CRTS's and using a cheesy magnifying glass I still see discrete pxiels.

Oh well, lets talk about new tech ...SED...
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post #730 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assJack1
Please, explain this to me.

I fully agree with you if it were monochrome (oscilloscope, or stroker designs). My understading is that the mask, or aperture grill, creates the individual elements (3 colors/pixels) and has black walls (e.g. rips surrounding them). Masks are usually hex packed, and by definition you will always have a fill factor less than 100%. Aperture grills have thin ribs between verticle lines. Both are still finite regardless if you make the beam infinately small.

I only have three Sony CRTS's and using a cheesy magnifying glass I still see discrete pxiels.
Firstly, the electron beam is scanned across horizontally. Since the electron beam intensity varies continously (ie sin wave as opposed to square wave) it is possible to see a gradient of intensity in the phosphor dots which are inherent to the signal. This is only possible in an analog display. And probably only visible to the naked eye in SD native displays.

Secondly, if the electron beam focus is smaller than the phosphor dot then it can essentially resolve more than one inherent signal element onto each phosphor dot. In this sense the only reason the resolution is limited by the shadow mask is that the focus is larger than the shadow mask hole. Theoretically if the beam focus is reduced below the width of the shadow mask hole you will get an increase in resolution and still maintain color selection.

With SED you eliminate the continous nature of the signal entirely and make it only possible for one spatially visible grayscale value per sub-pixel.

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post #731 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox
Actually pixels in digital displays are not addressed simultaneously. They are addressed line-by-line in a sequential fashion. They are however, activated simultaneously.
Agreed, the digital code is sequential, I guess its the terminology, I was referring to the "activation" of the pixel.

On your 3 scenarios, hadn't seen your postings on this ....

1. accepts digital signals makes sense.

2. has pixels - how about an LCD PC monitor driven in analog mode that does not have DVI input ? Is that considered a digital display ?

3. PWM - didn't know Plasma used it - thought that was DLP only. I guess there is quantization with all digital signals, with scatter about the levels as the pixels are driven.
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post #732 of 2847 Old 12-18-2005, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
2. has pixels - how about an LCD PC monitor driven in analog mode that does not have DVI input ? Is that considered a digital display ?

3. PWM - didn't know Plasma used it - thought that was DLP only. I guess there is quantization with all digital signals, with scatter about the levels as the pixels are driven.
LCD PC monitors can be addressed by an analog signal. Older models could "only" be addressed by analog. But like I was saying industry may label this digital solely based on the fact that the device is active matrix.

Plasma cannot use pure PWM as the grayscale level is based upon the binary system called ADS (address display seperated). Essentially the signal bit depth equals the number of sub-fields the panel is capable of to represent the grayscale level. So a 8 bit processing will have 8 sub-fields per sub-pixel to represent 8 bits per pixel in the signal. This sounds very digital to me :)

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post #733 of 2847 Old 12-19-2005, 12:30 AM
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Thanks for clarifying ...

Can't wait to see the competition between SED and new panels like Sharp's 57" and beyond - the winner gets a spot in the family room !
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post #734 of 2847 Old 12-20-2005, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
Thanks for clarifying ...

Can't wait to see the competition between SED and new panels like Sharp's 57" and beyond - the winner gets a spot in the family room !
How about Sharp's $20,000US (?!?! :eek: ?!?!) 65" LCD?

http://www.sharpusa.com/images/aquos...lifestyle3.jpg

Lol :D

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #735 of 2847 Old 12-20-2005, 02:27 PM
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I'm hoping for some new sizes, say 52" or so with specs of the 57".
Also hoping pricing will approach 100/inch.

20K draws a few "eeks" from me as well.
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post #736 of 2847 Old 12-20-2005, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
I'm hoping for some new sizes, say 52" or so with specs of the 57".
Also hoping pricing will approach 100/inch.

20K draws a few "eeks" from me as well.
Especially when the 20K was rounded down about 5k:D

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post #737 of 2847 Old 12-22-2005, 10:32 PM
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I didn't look thorugh every page in this thread but in the last couple I didn't see a reference to this recent Wired article:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1...art.html?pg=19

Wired is calling it "FED" but clearly referring to the Toshiba/Canon joint venture called SED. What gives?

Are Toshiba & Canon working on FED technology, SED technology, both or are they one and the same? And is it really coming this spring with mass production in 2007?
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post #738 of 2847 Old 12-23-2005, 11:06 AM
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Doh! need 5 posts to give a URL... I guess there are some drawbacks to merely sponging information from this forum.
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post #739 of 2847 Old 12-23-2005, 11:06 AM
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need two more..
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post #740 of 2847 Old 12-23-2005, 11:07 AM
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k after this I will post a URL that gives a 15,000 foot level difference between FED and SED.
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post #741 of 2847 Old 12-23-2005, 11:08 AM
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I found this article to be pretty informative:

http://www.graskinhometheatre.bigste...generic80.html

... "SED (Surface-conduction Emission Display) technology uses a great deal of FED technology with some critical changes. A thin strip of Palladium Oxide acts as an electron emitter, replacing the problematic Spindt Tips. What's more, SED displays do not require semiconductor technology, and the manufacturing of SED's does not need to be done in a vacuum or with special gases." ...
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post #742 of 2847 Old 12-23-2005, 05:04 PM
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So it sounds like "SED" is the way to go. But the Wired article makes it sound like "FED" is what Canon/Toshiba is doing, yet Canon & Toshiba are working on a joint venture called "SED, Inc."! It's so confusing. Perhaps the Wired article has gotten its fact confused...thanks for the link
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post #743 of 2847 Old 12-23-2005, 07:00 PM
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SED is a type of FED, just as SXRD & DiLA are types of LCoS.

SED sounds great- but there are pitfalls. Let's see if they really achieve their price points and if the emitter erosion and other problems are solved.

Plus, if OLED really becomes reality for large screen sizes, SED is toast (mostly due to costs- cheaper).

Stay tuned for further developments (over the next 5 years).

Reunite Pangea!
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post #744 of 2847 Old 12-24-2005, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlpdrool
I found this article to be pretty informative:

http://www.graskinhometheatre.bigste...generic80.html

... "SED (Surface-conduction Emission Display) technology uses a great deal of FED technology with some critical changes. A thin strip of Palladium Oxide acts as an electron emitter, replacing the problematic Spindt Tips. What's more, SED displays do not require semiconductor technology, and the manufacturing of SED's does not need to be done in a vacuum or with special gases." ...
Every article (and that's a lot) I have read about SED says it requires a vacuum. I have to question this one article for contradicting the others.
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post #745 of 2847 Old 12-24-2005, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallas27
Every article (and that's a lot) I have read about SED says it requires a vacuum. I have to question this one article for contradicting the others.
I agree,

"Electron Emitter

The strong points of the SED panel are more than the excellent image quality, as evidenced by the high contrast ratio and motion visibility on a par with that of cathode ray tubes (CRT). Canon and Toshiba, the two key developers, appear confident that SEDs are fully cost competitive with other displays already in the flat-screen TV market, such as LCD and plasma display panels (PDP). The two firms agree that the manufacturing method to be used in volume production is the major reason for this - which is why so many engineers were keenly interested in the announcements on SED panel manufacturing made at SID 2005.

The core of the manufacturing method used for the electron emitter is the forming of an electron emitter gap, without using semiconductor processes such as photolithography.

The electron emitter releases the electrons that cause the phosphors to emit light, and is a key component in determining SED panel performance. There is one emitter per sub-pixel, making it equivalent to the thin-film transistor (TFT) in LCD panels. It has been known for some time that the electron emitter has a tiny nm-sized gap to release electrons.

This time the presenters showed a cross-section of the electron emitter, revealing that a tiny gap only 4nm to 6nm in size is formed in the carbon deposited on the surface of the device film (Fig 2). The method used to manufacture this gap was also revealed, as a combination of two processes: conductance forming and conductance activation (Fig 3).

In conductance forming, pulsed voltage is used to create tiny gaps in the PdO (palladium oxide) device film printed onto the electrodes using inkjet technology. Organic gas is then introduced into the process chamber while pulsed voltage is continued in a process called conductance activation. These processes are executed continuously in a vacuum."

From: http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

So, the manufacturing of the SED electron emitter is done using a vacuum as described above.
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post #746 of 2847 Old 12-24-2005, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallas27
Every article (and that's a lot) I have read about SED says it requires a vacuum. I have to question this one article for contradicting the others.
the article is correct while being to vague. Most steps of SED manufacturing can and has been accomplished in ambient conditions using ink-jet printing techniques to literally print the electrode grid onto the substrates.

However, forming the small gaps or slits for electron tunelling seems like it requires a vacuum.

Cheers

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post #747 of 2847 Old 12-25-2005, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwclark
From: http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

So, the manufacturing of the SED electron emitter is done using a vacuum as described above.
This article seems fairly definitive on the vacuum. Interesting though that the 'graskinhometheatre' article specifically cites no vacuum or special gases as an advantage over FED. Wonder what gave him that thought?

http://www.graskinhometheatre.bigste...generic80.html

Anyway reading how the gap is formed is pretty impressive... imagine doing that all at the same time with enough emitters to create a display. Amazing.
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post #748 of 2847 Old 12-25-2005, 10:35 AM
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Yeah, I can see why it took them 20 years to figure out how to do it. Pretty cool stuff. :)
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post #749 of 2847 Old 12-28-2005, 06:16 PM
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bwclark, maybe I am missing something, but your url only says that a vacuum is used when creating the gap for the emitters of the SED panel. The article is about SED manufacturing, I just don't see where it states anything about the conditions inwhich an SED device will operate.

..."The method used to manufacture this gap was also revealed, as a combination of two processes: conductance forming and conductance activation (Fig 3).

In conductance forming, pulsed voltage is used to create tiny gaps in the PdO (palladium oxide) device film printed onto the electrodes using inkjet technology. Organic gas is then introduced into the process chamber while pulsed voltage is continued in a process called conductance activation. These processes are executed continuously in a vacuum."...
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post #750 of 2847 Old 12-29-2005, 02:56 PM
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SED pushed back a few months!

"Nishida said that Toshiba may delay the launch of television sets with surface-conduction electron-emitter displays, or SEDs, possibly until the middle of 2006 from the initially planned spring of the year because it needs to secure sufficient inventories."


http://www.redorbit.com/news/technol...e=r_technology
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