Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 95 - AVS Forum
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post #2821 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
SED can drive the pixels in an "analog" way. That means, intermediate values can be drawn at once. SED also doesn't suffer from the technical problems LCD has. As a result, there should be no (null, zero, nada) false contouring with SED.
I'll believe it when I see it. ;)

It sounds like a implementation issue to me (meaning it may or may not work out like theory). If you have a FP display I think the spectre of non-smooth gradients will always exist unless you somehow smear the data from pixel to pixel (no doubt loosing sharpness and detail)...
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post #2822 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 01:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Xcalibur_255
That summarizes a hundred pages of banter almost perfectly I must say. :D
1080p plasma

blah , blah, blah,
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post #2823 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 01:57 PM
 
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Oh yes, absolutely, SED can now be considered 'still-born'
If that is the case, we might as well prepare for official decline in display technology, SED is the only thing on the table that will take us out of this arrested
developement we are now in. :(
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post #2824 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
Sounds great!. But of course this brings us to the three main questions: 1) Will it have burn-in problems?. 2) Will it be available for the 2008 Summer Olympics, and 3) Will North Korea be allowed to have it?. :)
Burn in won't be a problem. If it is we will open up and a Master Burn-in thread right here on the AVS Forum's Plasma/LCD/SED Flat Panel Forum. :D
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post #2825 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5farms
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe Sharp has lowered their MSRPs to:

Sharp LC-57D90U 57" HDTV AQUOS LCD Flat Panel Television 1080P from $14,999 to $7,999

Sharp Aquos LC65D90U 65-Inch 16:9 LCD HDTV - True 1080p! from $19,999 to $9,999

And, the Panny stand isn't $2k, perhaps $2k for the stand and speakers.
Auditor55,

Is this true.... Cause your full of it if it is ;)
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post #2826 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 02:08 PM
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Let's get this clear Greenland. My "blah blah" post actually had a point -- one which was fully understand by about 90% of readers here (even those that might disagree with it).

You spent not one, not two, not three, but ... four! posts insulting me.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #2827 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
If that is the case, we might as well prepare for official decline in display technology, SED is the only thing on the table that will take us out of this arrested
developement we are now in. :(
You're beginning to remind me of a certain owner of a Pioneer FHD1. :rolleyes:
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post #2828 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 02:36 PM
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OK

official's time out
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post #2829 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ql00ql
Auditor55,

Is this true.... Cause your full of it if it is ;)
Actually this is true if you read the Sharp TV forums here. This also is very recent so I wouldn't blame Auditor55 if he didn't hear about it. Also the slightly smaller than 55" Sharp LC-52D62U (52") is only $4499 MSRP.

Doug
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post #2830 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
You're beginning to remind me of a certain owner of a Pioneer FHD1. :rolleyes:
I don't understand why you and others are not excited about SED. I thought we all come here as enthusiast looking for the next advancement in display technology. You have 2 wonderful Fujitsu Plasmas that you are now enjoying. I have a wonderful Panasonic Plasma that I'm currently enjoying, but the idea of something like SED coming that will push us beyond what we now own is exciting , I can't understand the constant naysayers.
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post #2831 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 06:00 PM
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I can't believe anybody would call it a competitor to Plasma and LCD if it isn't a flat, hang-on-the-wall panel. This is a Mitsubishi set.

[IMG][/IMG]


I haven't been able to find any tech details on this "laser tv" stuff, so I don't know for sure if this is really a flat panel or not, however ... I recall at least ten years ago seeing an idea for "projection" flat panel TVs using fiber optics as the lightpath. It would work like this:

Take a bundle of fiber optics -- 1920 across by 1080 high -- and project onto one ends of the bundle of fibers. Run the other end of each fiber up behind a diffusing screen so each fiber projects its own single-color pixel of the image. Three bundles -- RGB -- each with a fiber going to the back of each pixel.

The panel could be as thin as the fiber optic would allow the bends to be. With glass fibers, that might not allow really tight bends, but nylon fiber optic cable could bend more sharply. Even using glass fibers, getting down to 1" or 2" thickness for the panel shouldn't pose a problem.

Viewing angle might not even be a problem since the light "source" behind each pixel would be almost right at the screen's surface -- just a diffuser microlens in front of it.

Large screens of the same resolution wouldn't be difficult to make, just require more light output, longer fibers, and larger screen with larger "pixels".
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post #2832 of 2847 Old 10-11-2006, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
Toshiba/Canon say spring 2008 for SED in the United States. I have no reason to believe that won't be the case.

Toshiba/Canon haven't announced a price for the 55 inch SED sets. I'm guessing around 10k MSRP, which is the same the current 50'' Pioneer Elite 1080 plasma with its glorious 3000-1 contrast ratio.


Thanks Auditor55 .... you summed it up well for me ...

With that, I may take a strong look at my viewing distances, maybe settle for a 42" or 50" set and perhaps buy a plasma for a decent price and save for my funnnn purchase.

I was thinking of the 1080p plasmas but considering the 8k or so price, I might be better off compromising and saving for the SED in two years.

thanks again .... I love reading all your thoughts
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post #2833 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
I don't understand why you and others are not excited about SED. I thought we all come here as enthusiast looking for the next advancement in display technology. You have 2 wonderful Fujitsu Plasmas that you are now enjoying. I have a wonderful Panasonic Plasma that I'm currently enjoying, but the idea of something like SED coming that will push us beyond what we now own is exciting , I can't understand the constant naysayers.
Auditor, it's not a question of 'naysaying' it's a question of the 'here & now' as opposed to sometime in the future. We've read about SED and how great it's going to be for years...it just never materialized. I always thought it was nuts to hold out on buying another set only because of the 'promise' of some vaporware. And yes, as of today, it is still vaporware.

So let's make the assumption that SED is here today. What does it give us and how does it differentiate itself from everything else?

* In the age of 1080p, it will not in its initial release and for quite some time (again, there's that 'quite some time') give us the screen size to truly appreciate 1080p. I'm sorry, I can't get excited about 50"-55" 1080p displays.

* SED's only technological 'promise' that excites me to any degree is that of better blacks. Keep in mind the black levels of today's best plasmas are quite good and deficiencies are not noticed all that often with most content.

* Improved brightness? Who cares Auditor, who cares? Almost everyone I know and certainly all on this forum that care about video quality turn down their brightness of their current displays. So improved brightness falls on deaf ears...or is it deaf eyes?

* It's flat. Yawn. We've got that already.

* It's got lots of colors. Yawn. We've got that already.

* It's got perfect focus, linearity and convergence. Yawn. We've got that already. Lest I confuse someone, flat panels need no convergence.

* Plasma black levels will contnue to improve as evidence the just announced 60" Pioneer with a 10,000:1 CR. Auditor, that technology alone (apparently shared with Panasonic) could honestly make SED still-born. I'm very serious about that.

I could go on, but I think you see my points (no, I don't really think you do ;)). But this in a nutshell is why many of us here don't get too excited about this stuff. Every 6 months we read about a new technology that will 'destroy' everything that came before. It doesn't happen.

SED faces a huge uphill battle with costs relative to the current technologies. They face huge production challenges to try to drive those costs down. Will it happen or if it does will it be far too late? It is exceedingly difficult for a new technology to become mainstream. It will need to demonstrate a very significant performance and price differential for it to make any serious headway into what is a very competitive, cut-throat market.
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post #2834 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamer
The panel could be as thin as the fiber optic would allow the bends to be. With glass fibers, that might not allow really tight bends, but nylon fiber optic cable could bend more sharply. Even using glass fibers, getting down to 1" or 2" thickness for the panel shouldn't pose a problem.
The fibers would not have tight bends if the end were cut on an angle. You would end up a oval pixel instead of a round one.
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post #2835 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 05:56 AM
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The bundle would be a big as the screen. That is one BIG bundle.
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post #2836 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 09:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
Auditor, it's not a question of 'naysaying' it's a question of the 'here & now' as opposed to sometime in the future. We've read about SED and how great it's going to be for years...it just never materialized. I always thought it was nuts to hold out on buying another set only because of the 'promise' of some vaporware. And yes, as of today, it is still vaporware.

So let's make the assumption that SED is here today. What does it give us and how does it differentiate itself from everything else?

* In the age of 1080p, it will not in its initial release and for quite some time (again, there's that 'quite some time') give us the screen size to truly appreciate 1080p. I'm sorry, I can't get excited about 50"-55" 1080p displays.

* SED's only technological 'promise' that excites me to any degree is that of better blacks. Keep in mind the black levels of today's best plasmas are quite good and deficiencies are not noticed all that often with most content.

* Improved brightness? Who cares Auditor, who cares? Almost everyone I know and certainly all on this forum that care about video quality turn down their brightness of their current displays. So improved brightness falls on deaf ears...or is it deaf eyes?

* It's flat. Yawn. We've got that already.

* It's got lots of colors. Yawn. We've got that already.

* It's got perfect focus, linearity and convergence. Yawn. We've got that already. Lest I confuse someone, flat panels need no convergence.

* Plasma black levels will contnue to improve as evidence the just announced 60" Pioneer with a 10,000:1 CR. Auditor, that technology alone (apparently shared with Panasonic) could honestly make SED still-born. I'm very serious about that.

I could go on, but I think you see my points (no, I don't really think you do ;)). But this in a nutshell is why many of us here don't get too excited about this stuff. Every 6 months we read about a new technology that will 'destroy' everything that came before. It doesn't happen.

SED faces a huge uphill battle with costs relative to the current technologies. They face huge production challenges to try to drive those costs down. Will it happen or if it does will it be far too late? It is exceedingly difficult for a new technology to become mainstream. It will need to demonstrate a very significant performance and price differential for it to make any serious headway into what is a very competitive, cut-throat market.
SED has more advantages over Plasma than just black levels. Please read, especially PC interested folks.

Plasma, in case you're wondering, isn't likely to ever make an impact in the PC display market. The problem there is that the "feature size" is too big; nobody can make a plasma panel with pixels anything like as small as you need for a computer monitor. And dearly though we'd all like a huge big-pixelled PC-resolution plasma to use from a bit further away than a regular monitor, we probably don't want to pay $50,000 for it.
Oh, and Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCoS) didn't quite happen for monitors.
So that's the bad news. But a couple of other technologies are looking rather interesting.
First up, there's Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, mercifully abbreviated "SED". It's a phosphor-coated screen with a vacuum behind it, like a CRT, but it's got hard pixels each made up of three rectangular subpixels, like an LCD. Each subpixel has its own tiny low voltage electron emitter right behind it, instead of being scanned by a magnetically-guided high voltage electron beam from afar, as with a CRT.
SED offers high brightness and a great contrast ratio, like a CRT (or better), but in a hang-on-the-wall form factor, like plasma, and with power consumption around that of LCDs. CRTs draw about twice as much juice for a given screen size, and plasma screens are even worse, which is why they need cooling fans.
The first Toshiba (co-developed with Canon) SED HDTVs will be hitting the market Real Soon Now for you've-got-to-be-kidding prices. But only ten years ago a VGA (640 by 480, sixteen colour) active matrix LCD monitor could set you back $AU5000, so SED TVs ought to sprout in ordinary homes soon enough.
And, unlike plasma, SED can go small. The smallest prototype SED electron emitters anybody's managed to make so far are only a few nanometres across.
An emitter is not a subpixel; add a control matrix and phosphor blobs and things get much bigger. But when you consider that the highest density displays in at all common use today - 1920 by 1200 WUXGA 15 inch widescreens for laptops - are made out of subpixels that're around fifty-six thousand nanometres wide, I think you can see SED's potential."


I say again, SED is the future, it gives us everything. It will be best for multimedia applications. Also, if the above cited article shows that SED is cable of being manufacturer in many sizes. The 55 inch (my ideal size) is the first size, but I'm sure there will large and smaller sizes in the future. I watched a video clip of SED makers saying that they are looking at making screens for large arenas and football stadiums.

Pioneer Elite makes nice plasma screens, but unfortunately for them they put all their eggs in the plasma barrell. Plasma, as indicated by your post quoted above, has pretty much reached its peak. Your post shows that you don't believe that display technology can be taken any further than plasma. I think you and Pioneer are wrong about plasma, it is not the ultimate multimedia display technology that will take us further into the 21st century and beyond. I believe this will be evident when SED touches down in 2007 in Japan and 2008 in the U.S..

We see it for ourselves, the world will know it, once that genie is out of the bottle its going to be too late to put it back in.
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post #2837 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
Let's get this clear Greenland. My "blah blah" post actually had a point -- one which was fully understand by about 90% of readers here (even those that might disagree with it).

You spent not one, not two, not three, but ... four! posts insulting me.
You sure must lead a sheltered life if you consider my lampooning of your Blah, Blah, Blah comments to be insults. They sure seemed to be , by your standards, a blatant insulting of other posters to the thread!.

'Fully undestood by 90% of readers here". Self justifying assumptions!. Blah, Blah, Blah!.

Twenty three thousand posts!. Now reduced to dismissive Blah, Blah, Blah, about other people's postings.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Man: Heal thy self!.
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post #2838 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 09:49 AM
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Rikie,

No, the bundle would NOT be as large as the screen. You would not be watching the ends of the fibers, but a projection. Each fiber would be projecting through a wide-angle lens that would be maybe an inch behind the screen.

So each fiber might be less than a thousandth of an inch diameter, but it would be magnified by the lens to maybe a tenth of an inch image on the screen.

So for a 1920x1080 display, the bundle at the source end would be 1.92x1.08 inches, but the screen would be 192" x 108", and a few inches thick.

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post #2839 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 10:37 AM
 
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From eye witness accounts:



"The demo highlighted features like brightness, contrast, depth and color. Probably the best way to describe something this visual is to think back to when you first saw HDTV. Remember the impact it had on you and the jump you saw in picture quality? That's what SED feels like; it's like making the jump from SDTV to HDTV all over again. It's that good."

We should all hope that this technology isn't still born. :(
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post #2840 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 11:20 AM
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Seems to me one criteria for assessing new display technology is its capacity for being upscaled to 2160p, the likely next milestone level of resolution that some companies are already developing, or even higher. I doubt if plasma can make that transition - not sure about SED, but I assume LCD can, as well as the recently announced laser projection TV (Mitshubi). I know 1080p will be killer for most of us, but if we don't continue to pushthe envelope we may never get where we really want - the Star Trek holodeck!

"The truth is out there!"
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post #2841 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 11:29 AM
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I think we new need two official SED threads. One can be an actual SED "news" thread.

The other one can be the "let's argue about whether or not SED is coming out, and if/when it ever does come out, will it even be that much better than the competition" thread.

Whad'ya think??

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post #2842 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 11:41 AM
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Seriously, that's now 5 posts of insults basically in response to 1 post that made a point Greenland. You are not making a point, you are just being insulting.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #2843 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901
Seems to me one criteria for assessing new display technology is its capacity for being upscaled to 2160p, the likely next milestone level of resolution that some companies are already developing, or even higher. I doubt if plasma can make that transition - not sure about SED, but I assume LCD can, as well as the recently announced laser projection TV (Mitshubi). I know 1080p will be killer for most of us, but if we don't continue to pushthe envelope we may never get where we really want - the Star Trek holodeck!
SED will be able to do 2160p, nothing in the technology that limits it from doing so. Anyway,I doubt you will see Plasma, LCD or laser doing 50,000-1 contrast ratio in 2 years.
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post #2844 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimV
I think we new need two official SED threads. One can be an actual SED "news" thread.

The other one can be the "let's argue about whether or not SED is coming out, and if/when it ever does come out, will it even be that much better than the competition" thread.

Whad'ya think??
How 'bout we just all agree to limit the thread to mostly news...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
Seriously, that's now 5 posts of insults basically in response to 1 post that made a point Greenland. You are not making a point, you are just being insulting.
Seriously: on the morning of Oct. 10th. I posted some information about A demonstration of Laser HDTV, Mitsubishi panel used, that claimed it was a breakthrough. They said that it was going to be half the price of plasma, thinner than plasma, lighter than plasma, one quarter the energy use of plasma, and would be available by the 4Q 2007. A few others commented on it, and posted some pictures from the demonstration.

You have always made the case that SED would have a hard row to hoe against Plasma competition. I felt that people might want to see what developed with this new Laser Panel claims, since they were also claiming that it would be a Plasma killer.

Here comes you, Rogo, the same night with your very first post about this Laser HDTV report, and what is it.

You said: "Lasers, Blah, Blah, Blah. And you have the gall to feel insulted. I was not trying to insult you. If I were, I would probably have referred to you as a supercilious, condescending dismissive twit. But I was not trying to insult you, so I did not say any such thing.

I did, and still question the arrogant way in which you went Blah, Blah, Blah, about something that had just been discussed briefly for less than a day before you tried to stifle the discussion.
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post #2847 of 2847 Old 10-12-2006, 12:33 PM
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time out

sigh :(
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