Westinghouse 42" LCD w/1080p. MSRP ONLY - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3243 Old 03-06-2006, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by oddroot
I'm thinking about the 46" bravia xbr (1080p)... I'm not sure i've seen a real release date for it though... I do know the 46" Bravia S is supposedly due in May (no 1080p).
I'd prefer a 65-inch 1080p Panasonic plasma at the Bravia's price point. The panny is due out in late September.

However, since my budget is limited to under $3000, the Westy 42-inch LCD looks like the ticket for me...
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post #722 of 3243 Old 03-06-2006, 09:43 PM
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Here are my impressions of the 42", compared to the Westi 37"s I previously owned, so far (I've only had it a few hours):
1) It looks much nicer and sleeker than the 37" (as noticed by myself, the nanny and the wife)
2) It sits lower than the 37" - the downside is that my center channel speaker can't really be placed in front of it
3) There are no external speaker wires, so I can't wire up the internal speakers as a center channel (I'm sure the speakers suck anyway)
4) The remote may be a little more responsive - not sure yet
5) I have no dead pixels, the backlighting seems even and I haven't noticed any buzzing/chirping sounds - hooray! (again, though - I've only had it for a few hours)
6) Bad, over-compressed SD sources look even worse at 42" than 37" (duh)
7) Even my wife agrees that another 5" makes a difference (no jokes, please) at 14 feet back

Now, this overscan thing has me puzzled. Unlike the 37", "fill" and "standard" modes make a difference when feeding it digital signals. I have the following connections: HTPC feeding DVI1 at 1080p, cable box feeding DVI2 at 1080i, DVD/VHS deck feeding HDMI at 1080i.

"Standard" on the HTPC feed does the right thing (1 to 1 pixel mapping); "fill" causes an overscan.

"Standard" on the cable box feed results in a bar of flashing pixels on the right hand side of the screen, "standard" on the DVD feed results in a smaller green bar on the left hand side of the screen.

"Fill", on both the cable feed and DVD feed results in significant overscan - I'd say it's losing an inch of picture on every side.

Was the 37" always overscanning (on DVI2), and I never knew I was losing so much picture? Can this behavior be correct? Does it really have to perform scaling on a 1080i signal to hide funny data? I'd always assumed a 1080i signal had 1920x1080 (not getting into the interlaced field details) pixels of picture data, so no scaling required - is this not true?

Huh.
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post #723 of 3243 Old 03-06-2006, 11:53 PM
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Yes, the DVI-2 on 37" overscans since it was designed for HDTV use. Also, HDMI on the 42" does the same overscan as comfirmed by one of the member. I'm not sure how much. I did test with HDnet calibration pattern and it seems to lose about 1/4" all around on the 37".

Yes, you're corrected about true 1080i not requiring scaling on the 1080p screen, but when it's overscanned like the HDMI port, you won't get 1:1 pixel mapping.

If I were you, I'll use the HDMI for TV and use DVI-2 for DVD.
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post #724 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
...
If I were you, I'll use the HDMI for TV and use DVI-2 for DVD.
Is there a known difference between the two? I don't use the audio part of HDMI, of course.
My cable box is a Motorola 6412 P3, which is alleged to have a problem with HDMI in that it sometimes reverts its optical/co-ax digital audio outputs to PCM (stereo), rather than bit-stream (surround), when it's feeding an HDMI monitor.
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post #725 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 06:06 AM
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Yes, I have a 360, but I've been busy and haven't even turned it on once since I got my 42" in. I'll try to get to it one evening this week, as well as post my impressions after using the set for several days.

About the overscan on HDMI, when set to standard, it seems to not overscan at all on the left and right. I still get garbage on some channels, specifically a BRIGHT yellow line on the left hand side on NBC. It only overscans a little bit on top and bottom. Like somebody else mentioned, when set to fill it overscans a LOT, too much in my opinion. A good example is the station logo, where it is normally in a corner a little bit away from the edges, when in fill mode it is basically touching both edges of the corner. Another is CNN's ticker bar, when on fill mode the bottom edge of the text is cut off.

Anyways, I see no reason they couldn't have done the same on HDMI as they did with DVI. Just have the option to enable/disable the overscan with the fill mode.
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post #726 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 07:06 AM
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Have others tried HDMI on the 42"? It sounds like it overscans too little on "standard" and too much on "fill". What about "fill" on DVI. Is it too much?

Does anyone have a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD hooked up to the 42" (via the DVI port)? If so, what are your overscan results on HDMI and DVI?

What about overscanning on the component inputs? I prefer a bit of overscanning on the component inputs.
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post #727 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnius
Yes, I have a 360, but I've been busy and haven't even turned it on once since I got my 42" in. I'll try to get to it one evening this week, as well as post my impressions after using the set for several days.

.

Looking foward to you 360 impression on the 42'


The westy rep suggested using 1080i, it would be great if you can look to see if there is any lag, ghosting, and all the other things to look for. What games will you be testing?


The main reason I'm getting the TV is for gaming use on the 360, and PS3 for future

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post #728 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 08:17 AM
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I poked around on the Web a bit. The consensus seems to be that manufacturers are overscanning too much, an inexplicable holdover from the "old days". Perhaps there's something we don't know (though I'd guess it's a deficiency in the chip-sets they're using).

From some spec:
Quote:
6.6 The clean aperture of the picture defines a region 1888 samples in width by 1062 lines high, symmetrically located in the production aperture. The clean aperture shall be substantially free from transient effects due to blanking and picture processing.
Based on this, I think I'd want a digital TV, with a digital input, to display the 1888x1062 pixels, centered within the 1920x1080 available on the screen, leaving the rest black.

Instead, in "fill" mode, the 42" Westi is cutting off 7/8" on the bottom (I measured to a logo), and I'd guess the same on the other 3 sides. In "standard" mode, there's a black border on top, the left and bottom are either flush or cut off, and there's garbage on the right. That's on DVI2. Without measuring the overscan on the other inputs, my guess from playing with it is they're all the same, including the component inputs, though I could be wrong on this.

Here's a link showing examples of overscan "ruining" certain scenes:
http://www.mastersofcinema.org/revie...kingbeyond.htm

More fun with consumer technology!
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post #729 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserNameTaken
Was the 37" always overscanning (on DVI2), and I never knew I was losing so much picture? Can this behavior be correct? Does it really have to perform scaling on a 1080i signal to hide funny data? I'd always assumed a 1080i signal had 1920x1080 (not getting into the interlaced field details) pixels of picture data, so no scaling required - is this not true?

Huh.
The 37" overscans about 4% on the component and DVI2 inputs. Don't know about the other legacy analog inputs as I haven't used them.

VGA and DVI1 have no overscan, but the DVI1 is a little more buggy with HDCP handshakes.

I wish you could enable/disable the overscan.

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post #730 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddroot
WIth my amp all I payed was the american price, plus shipping, I was charged GST on the equivalent canadian dollar amount and that was it (aside from a 8$ canada post handling charge), no american taxes, no duty...

Etronics will ship the westinghouse up to canada, and if I can make sure that I can get it serviced here in Calgary (i've sent an email out to westinghouse asking about the servicing), I may very well bite the bullet and have it shipped up... All said and done it will cost me less than the Sony 40" Bravia (not the xbr, the cheaper one)....

I just really wish I could see it first before buying it.

Oh and, the charges you are talking about could have been UPS's rediculous brokerage fees.... never ship UPS from the States to Canada (or atleast not on the ground, i think their air shipping includes brokerage fees).

Sorry, you will have to pay 5% duty since the unit is not manufactured in North America (Thailand) and doesn't come under NAFTA. Your amp must have been U.S. built. You then pay GST (no pst for you lucky Albertans) on that total. If you want clarification, phone Customs. I'm not sure about State taxes, since it varies, but my understanding is that if you pick up the unit yourself, and there is a state tax, you pay it (and duty is added to that total, then GST). If it's shipped out of state you are exempt from the tax, just like Canada. However shipping charges and brokerage fees may be higher than paying the tax. I called Customs first, that's what they told me and the only surprise I had was that duty and taxes were calculated from the total cost, including taxes, not just the retail.
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post #731 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserNameTaken
6) Bad, over-compressed SD sources look even worse at 42" than 37" (duh)
This is my biggest concern about this TV. I have 3 SD tuners in my HTPC, and I don't see that changing in the near future. I record most things at 2GB/hour, but I would go up to 3gb or more if it looked decent on this TV. what do you consider to be Over-compressed? Would you be able to post a picture of what SD looks like on youe new set?
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post #732 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfranch
This is my biggest concern about this TV. I have 3 SD tuners in my HTPC, and I don't see that changing in the near future. I record most things at 2GB/hour, but I would go up to 3gb or more if it looked decent on this TV. what do you consider to be Over-compressed? Would you be able to post a picture of what SD looks like on youe new set?
It's probably more of a problem with SD sources, rather than SD sources that have been scaled by an HTPC. I think (going off of what I've heard, since I don't have an HDTV yet), that the HTPC will scale the picture to 1080p better than letting the Westy scale an input from say, a STB that is SD. But I may be wrong on this.

Not sure how FFDSHOW works, but I would imagine that you could probably somehow use it on SD recordings, to make them look better on your TV? Anyone know for sure?

I'm in the same boat, with a PVR-500 (dual tuner) going to two Verizon STB's (DCT2500), via S-Video. But I recently bought a FusionHDTV5 Lite, and have an OTA antenna in my attic...
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post #733 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stucandu
Sorry, you will have to pay 5% duty since the unit is not manufactured in North America (Thailand) and doesn't come under NAFTA. Your amp must have been U.S. built. You then pay GST (no pst for you lucky Albertans) on that total. If you want clarification, phone Customs. I'm not sure about State taxes, since it varies, but my understanding is that if you pick up the unit yourself, and there is a state tax, you pay it (and duty is added to that total, then GST). If it's shipped out of state you are exempt from the tax, just like Canada. However shipping charges and brokerage fees may be higher than paying the tax. I called Customs first, that's what they told me and the only surprise I had was that duty and taxes were calculated from the total cost, including taxes, not just the retail.
I don't think Harman Kardon is assembled in North America... sometimes it's just a roll of the dice with customs. If it was shipped from the States, regardless of where it was manufactured, sometimes you will get away with paying nothing but the GST. However Etronics, guarentees (to whatever degree you can trust online retailers), that their price includes all applicable taxes, duties and brokerage fees. As far as I can figure based on the price, and assuming a reasonable shipping cost, the fees are pretty much bang on except for about 200$...
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post #734 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 10:36 AM
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So, is this correct?

HDMI: "Standard" - Overscans a little, and maybe too little for a few channels. "Fill" - Overscans a lot.
DVI: "Standard" - No overscan - 1:1 pixel mapping - perfect fit. "Fill" - Overscans, but how much? Less overscan than HDMI on "Fill"?

What about VGA?

---

stu,

Like I said, most of the time you don't pay duty, regardless of where the unit was manufactured/assembled, as long as the store from which you are ordering is in the US.

Legally you may be correct, but it doesn't work out that way in real life most of the time. I have ordered tons of stuff made in Japan, China, Philippines, etc, from the US, and I have never had to pay duty on any of it. I do have to pay brokerage charges, PST, and GST however.
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post #735 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogecko
It's probably more of a problem with SD sources, rather than SD sources that have been scaled by an HTPC.
I agree with this - I have had Directv SD that looked pretty darn good on the 42" , but I went to Time Warner Cable for HD - and the same channel looks absolute crap. I have even compared both by having a show on my old Directv tivo and watching the same show on TWC - the TWC looks really bad.
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post #736 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkinghome
I agree with this - I have had Directv SD that looked pretty darn good on the 42" , but I went to Time Warner Cable for HD - and the same channel looks absolute crap. I have even compared both by having a show on my old Directv tivo and watching the same show on TWC - the TWC looks really bad.
Also.... even on the same channel, different program contents will have different PQ. Any good 480i contents will look great. Westy deinterlacer/scaler does a good job.
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post #737 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkinghome
I agree with this - I have had Directv SD that looked pretty darn good on the 42" , but I went to Time Warner Cable for HD - and the same channel looks absolute crap. I have even compared both by having a show on my old Directv tivo and watching the same show on TWC - the TWC looks really bad.
That is what I'm afraid of. I have TWC. I'll most likely get a HD box, but I still use my HTPC to record most everything I watch. Which means most of what I watch will be SD for a while at least.
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post #738 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 02:36 PM
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So is there a consensus that this is the normal 3-5% legacy overscan we typically see on tvs, or is it something worse that represents a possible problem with the sets?

Personally, I love the adjustable overscan options Sony put in the Bravia V series. Such a simple thing to add that makes alot of us picky types happy.
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post #739 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy
So, is this correct?

HDMI: "Standard" - Overscans a little, and maybe too little for a few channels. "Fill" - Overscans a lot.
DVI: "Standard" - No overscan - 1:1 pixel mapping - perfect fit. "Fill" - Overscans, but how much? Less overscan than HDMI on "Fill"?

What about VGA?
I have both DVI1 and VGA connected to a PC, DVI2 and YPbPr1 connected to my cable STB, and HDMI connected to a DVD player.

DVI1 and VGA zoom from 1:1, to losing about 1" on the top and bottom, and 2" on the sides.
DVI2 and YPbPr1 zoom from 1:1 (I assume), to losing about .75" on top/bottom and 1.5" on the sides. YPbPr1 perhaps overscans a little in "standard" mode.
I'd guess that HDMI is the same as DVI2, but I didn't try to get a static image up to measure.

I find "standard" mode unusable for cable, via DVI2 or YPbPr1, due to the non-image data, and so have to live with the significant overscan. I haven't played with DVD via HDMI enough to know whether I have to always "zoom" (using fill mode) or not.

UPDATE:
I was wrong - HDMI and DVI2 are a little different (I swapped the STB over to HDMI, DVD on DVI2). HDMI is usable in "standard" mode with a cable STB - no, or very little, edge anomalies. DVI2, with DVD, needs to be put in "fill" mode to get rid of the anomalies, just as when I had cable running into it. We watch a lot more cable, so I'll leave it on HDMI, though now I have to contend with a cable STB HDMI bug. Plus, my DVD/VHS player/recorder is finicky about HDMI/DVI handshaking. Given that, in conjunction with the less than desirable under/overscan on DVI2, I should just revert to component for DVD/VHS.

Jeez, this stuff is not easy.
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post #740 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcalibur_255
...
Personally, I love the adjustable overscan options Sony put in the Bravia V series. Such a simple thing to add that makes alot of us picky types happy.
Simple if you're engineering your own chips. I used to work for a (US) chip company whose chips go into a surprising number of Japanese and Chinese AVRs. Many of these companies aren't really doing much of the hard engineering on their own.
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post #741 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 04:14 PM
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The overscan: Hmm, that’s interesting, so basically, the only way to get 1:1 pixel mapping from ANY 1080p signal (say a blu-ray movie), would be to play it through a PC @ 1920x1080 via the DVI port (not the HDMI) directly into the westy?

I must admit that I have an hard time understanding this, since overscan was a concept introduced to correct the analog signals, but now we’re digital, so why make it complicated again? I mean, what’s the point of buying a 1080p display when the 1080p signal coming into it will be scaled anyway to be displayed overscanned, losing all the sharpness that a 1:1 pixel mapping would produce… This stuff is getting a little confusing, but hey, it’s still fun, I can’t wait to get that westy :)

Buying from Canada: Thanks for the info guys, this is very helpful, keep posting your experiences to get this TV where the snow spends the summer! Seeing all those taxes on top of taxes, I’m sure glad we have a free trade agreement… hehe.
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post #742 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TYBZ
The overscan: Hmm, that’s interesting, so basically, the only way to get 1:1 pixel mapping from ANY 1080p signal (say a blu-ray movie), would be to play it through a PC @ 1920x1080 via the DVI port (not the HDMI) directly into the westy?...
My guess is that all 1080i/p sources are 1:1, at least into DVI1/2. And, perhaps into HDMI also, with a difference. Looking closely at 1080i fed into HDMI in standard mode, I could convince myself that the Westi is doing what I would hope - displaying 1888x1062 pixels (were those the right numbers?), at 1:1, leaving a few black pixels around the border.
This really is just armchair techy conjecture/observation, though - turned into a guess.
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post #743 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 07:18 PM
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Jeez, this stuff is not easy.
Wow, you can say that again. :D I will be referring back to this page from time to time though, to wrap my head around this. Thanks for the tests. Hopefully someone else can confirm that your results are representative of all the 42" Westies.

I've decided to hold off on the purchase for now though. I've been reading the 37" Westinghouse thread, and the corner bleed and colour shift issues have me a bit worried. I'll let you guys be the guinea pigs first ;) (esp. since I have no place to put my old widescreen HD CRT if I get another TV). I also must admit that I am intrigued by the mentions of adjustable overscan settings for the Sony Bravia line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UserNameTaken
My guess is that all 1080i/p sources are 1:1, at least into DVI1/2. And, perhaps into HDMI also, with a difference. Looking closely at 1080i fed into HDMI in standard mode, I could convince myself that the Westi is doing what I would hope - displaying 1888x1062 pixels (were those the right numbers?), at 1:1, leaving a few black pixels around the border.
This really is just armchair techy conjecture/observation, though - turned into a guess.
This would be easy to test, with a DVI PC and an appropriate homemade desktop background. Anyone up to the task? :)
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post #744 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfranch
This is my biggest concern about this TV. I have 3 SD tuners in my HTPC, and I don't see that changing in the near future. I record most things at 2GB/hour, but I would go up to 3gb or more if it looked decent on this TV. what do you consider to be Over-compressed? Would you be able to post a picture of what SD looks like on youe new set?


I was worried about this also - I have two PVR150's and with NVIDIA's decoder & ffdshow I'm able to make a decent output that looks good on this monitor. Obviously, its not comparable to the HD channels but its almost as good as the old CRT.

Now this didn't come easy - I spent most of today tinkering with the settings and late this afternoon I was finally happy with the output.
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post #745 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 09:09 PM
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Just went to the Harrison St. BB in San Francisco. They have 37 available at their warehouse, but nothing on display.
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post #746 of 3243 Old 03-07-2006, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longhorn1687
I was worried about this also - I have two PVR150's and with NVIDIA's decoder & ffdshow I'm able to make a decent output that looks good on this monitor. Obviously, its not comparable to the HD channels but its almost as good as the old CRT.

Now this didn't come easy - I spent most of today tinkering with the settings and late this afternoon I was finally happy with the output.
I'm glad to hear this. Could you take a couple of pictures of SD on your HTPC if you get a chance. I am not expecting HD quality output, but if it doesn't at least look decent I'm going to have to look elseware, maybe the Syntax Signature LCD (when it comes out). Once I get a TV, I'll tinker with OTA HD cards, but I expect to be recording SD for a while.
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post #747 of 3243 Old 03-08-2006, 06:27 AM
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Hey Everyone,

I ordered my Westinghouse yersterday at BB. Took a little effort on my part but finally spoke with the GM of the store and scored.!!! WIll be taking delivery at the end of the month and purchased 4-year protection plan

Now for a some basic connection questions. I currently own a Pioneer progressive scan DVD player and will be getting a Comcast DVR/HD box. Also have 5.1 surround sound set-up. My current set-up also has an old Yamaha receiver with no built in Dolby Digital decoding nor does it accept an optical audio connection so what I did was have wire each speaker connection from back of DVD player to corresponding speaker connection on receiver using analog cables. Obviously want to change that now. So with that said here is what I would like to do and looking for advice:

1. Keep DVD player but I think I need to upgrade my receiver to take advantage of 5.1 DD coming directly from Comcast, correct? Any recommendations for new receiver? Should I really be looking at HDMI switching capable? upconverting? Thoughts?

2. Connections: Does this make sense for Westy-

Cable box - HDMI or DVI to Westy and optical out to receiver(?)
DVD player - component to Westy and optical out to receiver(?)
VCR (yes still have one) - RGB to receiver and RGB from receiver to Westy(?)
XBOX (not 360) - Please help


Any help or thoughts much appreciated. This is a major upgrade for me as I have been living in the analog world up to this point (cable, TV, audio connections, etc).

Thanks! :)
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post #748 of 3243 Old 03-08-2006, 06:59 AM
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Pix and review please! :)

I'm particularly interested in your experiences with the quality of blacks, presence or absence of blue shift on whites, amount of overscan on the various inputs, and presence or absence of light bleeding in the corners. These are all issues that are reported with Westinghouse TVs (like in that 37" Westy thread). So far so good in this thread though. :)

P.S. In the meantime I will hope the Canadian dollar does not lose more value against the US dollar, so I might save a few bux on that Westy order. ;)
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post #749 of 3243 Old 03-08-2006, 08:16 AM
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I just got one from BB in Watertown, MA. It was delivered from the area warehouse the next day, so I imagine you can go into any area BB and get it. The HD cable box doesn't arrive until Friday, but so far with SD over composite at ~8' the quality is fine.

I was hoping to mount it with a sanus VMAA26, but it looks like it only has a vesa pattern in the center, no bolt locations off to the sides. Any ideas?
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post #750 of 3243 Old 03-08-2006, 08:20 AM
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Also Ordered my TV from BB yesterday -- I should have delivery on Sat 03/10/06 -- I have the Following setup: [and will try to post pictures, impressions ASAP (^.^)]

Monster Power HTS 1600
PS2 (component)
Xbox360 (component for the moment)
Yamaha HTR-5890 (Monster Clips and cables)
Mirage Sat speakers (200 series) w/ FRX 10" Sub

And Dish DVR510 ... and upgrading to new HD 211 when 42" is delivered. (wanted HD DVR but I just dropped too much money on a new washer and dryer for wife ><)

I plan to run all my video directly to monitor - I don't like using amp as a switch personally.

I plan to do HDMI > DVI on HD Dish box - Component on both the Ps2 and Xbox360. I will play w/ VGA on the 360, and doing HDMI > HDMI on the HD box.

I have no plans for upconvert DVD atm, since I'm hoping the HD-DVD for 360 will be available soon, and of course the phantom Ps3 w/ BD soon ^^.

My 2 cents for Epie -- I would definitely recommend the upgrade on your receiver. It will do 2 things for you - allow your DVD and your HD to come thru w/ digital sound.
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