Early 1080p adopters beware: CES 2006 does not look good - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 04:11 PM
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Ken & Jim,

I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate your commentaries. I have been following several threads (which have grooooooooooooown based on responses) that have sought to comment on related items.

As a result, whereas I initially thought that I might have to replace a 2 year old HK receiver, I have come to understand that I do not need to upgrade that 2yr old HK 7200 avr (Flagship at that time) to get one with HDMI (which 2 yrs ago, this series did not have HDMI as an option), which now is still scheduled to go through several iterations of growth before the next "Standardization" (.3) is fully realized and agreed upon. One less new purchase for me :) Add to that the ability to not have to deal with a potential WAF on upgrading. ;) :D

Added to the mix is that by the time that I decided that I wanted to get the Panny 50" 5008u, they were no longer available. :(

So I started to think about the 9th gen 600 series. Low and behold the commentaries/analyses have been flying fast and furious. Reality is that even as questions started to arise as to whether or not one aught to hold off for the 1080s, in this instance for the "bang for the buck" on picture quality, longevity/quality of product, this (the 9th gen 50" Panny) appears to be still a win-win for those who have not yet gotten a 50'' baby.

Thanks guys. Did I miss anything?????
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post #242 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 04:34 PM
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No adm, I don't think you missed anything. But to be fair, I"m not saying a 1080p display is wrong for everyone, I'm just saying that before someone rushes out and purchases one, they should be aware of the real issues that are out there. I think too many times we get caught up in the 'next new thing' and forget about the practical issues that should be considered. I think for many (most?) the better displays of today will be just fine for some years to come....but that's just MO. ;)
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post #243 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
And Jim, with Blu-Ray/HD DVD as the only common source on the horizon that can supply 1080p material, you won't be missing a whole lot for the next several years with a non-1080p display anyway. At the risk of repeating myself, even Blu-Ray/HD DVD is an unknown in terms of the consistency of picture quality. D-Theater proved that relative to expectations.

Delaying a 1080p display purchase for several years will give the displays a chance to a) come down in price b) allow connection technology to shake out c) let source material actually make the purchase worthwhile! ;)
Delaying a 1080p display purchase for several years is too long a wait and impractical. Since 1080i is already a HD standard and prevalent, purchase a 1920x1080 display either accepting 1080i or both 1080i/p now is preferable if you don't already own a HD display. If you already own a HDTV, it is best to hold off until next year when BR/HD DVD/PS3/XBOX 360 are out with 1080p output and HDMI interface is standarized for 1080p signals.
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post #244 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
And Jim, with Blu-Ray/HD DVD as the only common source on the horizon that can supply 1080p material, you won't be missing a whole lot for the next several years with a non-1080p display anyway. At the risk of repeating myself, even Blu-Ray/HD DVD is an unknown in terms of the consistency of picture quality...
Delaying a 1080p display purchase for several years will give the displays a chance to a) come down in price b) allow connection technology to shake out c) let source material actually make the purchase worthwhile! ;)
I agree with you provided that one already has a 720P flat panel. I however sold my HDTV when I moved last October and currently have no HD monitor. In my situation taking a chance on a 1080P LCD for less than $3K makes more sense than buying yesterday's 720P technology. Blu-Ray may be unknown in terms of consistency of picture quality, but what it if turns out to be very good right out of the box? Granted there may not be very many 1080P discs in the coming year but I think back 5 years to the thrill I experienced the night I saw a 1080i OTA broadcast for the first time on PBS. If I can experience a few more thrills like that with Blu-Ray then spending the extra $1K for 1080P vs. 720P/1080i will have been worth the cost. Even if one can't appreciate that viewpoint it's hard to deny the benefit of using a 1080P panel as a monitor for an HTPC. I have a little concern about the 1080P panel being able to accept the signal from the Blu-Ray player given that the manufacturer of the panel may not have chosen to provide this capability. I am getting a panel that accepts 1080P over HDMI. Hopefully that will be enough.
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post #245 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 07:43 PM
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I actually can't wait to see what a good Blu-Ray disc will look like on top-notch current displays! Nobody's really talking about that. ;)
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post #246 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy
The wobulated DLP 1080p displays by HP and Samsung are gorgeous and are true 1080p displays. The fact that the chip has 960X1080 resolution and one mirror paints two pixels is not relevent to the performance.

However one should not be directly comparing front projection to rear projection to flat panels. These different displays excell at different things. Front projectors offer the biggest images and the best simulation of a theater. Rear projectors offer the biggest image for the buck in normal roomm lighting. Flat panels are the most expensive and smallest displays.

Choose your display technology based on how and where the display gets used, then shop for that type of display.

DLP can hardly be called "laggard" when the first available 1080p digital displays were DLP technology. Of course all the digital technologies lagged behind the 1080p analog CRT technology which was available in 1999.

"Laggard" can only today be applied to plasma technology, not yet available in 1080p. Both DLP and LCD are leading the digital 1080p curve.

Gary
Sorry Gary. I have compared the technologies over and over again- I can make good arguements for LCD Flat. 3lcd, LCos rear projection, Plasma, and SED. I can make arguements for the best of the FPs as well. But their really isnt an arguement for DLP rear projection displays anymore, even with the obvious improvements they have made over the course of one year which I have observed myself as well. In terms of realism and PQ, DLP is a laggard technology and I wouldnt haphazardly throw the words out there unless I meant it. Its an opinion of course--that reproduces itself everytime consistently. I have no need to be political on this type of topic- just honest.
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post #247 of 261 Old 01-15-2006, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
I actually can't wait to see what a good Blu-Ray disc will look like on top-notch current displays! Nobody's really talking about that. ;)
I wouldn't mind seeing it on one of the lesser displays either. The Westinghouse LVM-42w2 is almost here and with the money left over from buying a $2.8K MSRP 1080P display there's still room in the budget for a $1.8K Blu-ray!
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post #248 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe_R
My neighbor just made the leap to HD. First one of the immediate 10 houses. He bought a 60" Sony SXRD (xbr). He gives me the 'latest and greatest' speil, 1080p etc. Then I inform him while it's capable of 1080p, it won't accept a 1080p input. At first he was confused. Then he got over it because it was basically half price through a Sony employee purchase. Then he said, oh well, it's still HD and it looks great. And it did.
But my point here; is it's very confusing to us, let along 'joe' public, on what is being purchased. Everything has a spin. LCD vs. plasma, 1080i, 720p, 1080p, hdmi 1.0, hdmi 1.3 etc. etc. People are buying tv's and even if there is 1080p content, the will not go buy another just because. They will let their stb or tv downconvert and be happy. I don't think 720p will become the 'vhs' picture we once had compared to 1080p. Bottom line, people are buying now, blindly, and will deal with what they have for years to come.
So how can you tell if a 1080p tv CAN accept 1080p input? What is the tell-tale sign on the specs. I'm so torn right now because I want a 56" 1080p Samsung that I can get for somewhere between $1,100-1,200 off the MSRP but I don't know if the technology is worth it. After reading most of this board--my mind still isn't made up.

thanks,
C
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post #249 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctrain50
So how can you tell if a 1080p tv CAN accept 1080p input? What is the tell-tale sign on the specs.
Unless the marketing people are idiots, under "accepted video formats" (or something similar) it will say 480p/720p/1080i/1080p, possibly it will list further detail and say 1080p/24 1080p/60
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post #250 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 10:49 AM
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For what it is worth we have a lawsuit pending in the Los Angeles Superior Court against D* for misleading advertising on the HD package. D* tried to force it to arbitration, but the Court declared their Customer Service Agreement to be unconscionable and unenforceable. However, they appealed that ruling, so we are tied up in a procedural battle for awhile before we can attack HD-lite.
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post #251 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 11:15 AM
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Pardon my ignorance or naivete, but who or what is "D*"?
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post #252 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctrain50
So how can you tell if a 1080p tv CAN accept 1080p input? What is the tell-tale sign on the specs. I'm so torn right now because I want a 56" 1080p Samsung that I can get for somewhere between $1,100-1,200 off the MSRP but I don't know if the technology is worth it. After reading most of this board--my mind still isn't made up.

thanks,
C
Go to Samsung's website and check out the specs, and the brochures.

When the first 1080p DLP came out from Samsung, I checked out the specs on their web site, and it stated that 1080p was only available thru VGA input.
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post #253 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by adm
Pardon my ignorance or naivete, but who or what is "D*"?
That's the slang on this forum for DirecTV. E* is Dish (from its origins as EchoStar)
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post #254 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by martyj19
That's the slang on this forum for DirecTV. E* is Dish (from its origins as EchoStar)

Thanks much for the translation on both items.

..Mark
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post #255 of 261 Old 01-28-2006, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhub
Unless the marketing people are idiots, under "accepted video formats" (or something similar) it will say 480p/720p/1080i/1080p, possibly it will list further detail and say 1080p/24 1080p/60
I recommend trust, then verify :)

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post #256 of 261 Old 01-30-2006, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Artwood
With so much HD-Lite around doesn't it point up the fact that you really do need to get as many stations OTA as possible?

Let me get this straight: unless you want to pay a zillion dollars for a 1080p Plasma right now your only choices are HP DLP and soon you might be able to go with Samsung LED DLP and maybe SXRD when it is upgraded or lastly go the Flat Panel LCD route.

Given that the contrast ratio of Flat Panel LCD though improved is still sub par--I'd consider the others.

With HP DLP you have to replace bulbs often and you might be susceptible to its rainbows but otherwise it's a good set.

That leads me to believe that the Samsung LED DLP would be the way to go since you wouldn't have to replace bulbs as often--but since it is still WOBULATED it won't be as sharp as unwobulated ones--but who knows when they'll get here?

Who's left--Sony--who knows how much the improved ones will be improved when it comes to SSE--but from all indications their bulbs seem to last a little longer than most replacement bulbs do--but not as much as Samsung LED DLP.

I think the only thing that makes any sense if you can wait is TO WAIT for 1080p Rainbowless LED DLP that is UNWOBULATED or IMPROVED SXRD--view them side by side--and make your best choice.

Failing that if you have to buy then the current HP DLP versus the Sony SXRD--even though it isn't 1080p--versus the Samsung 1080p LED DLP would be the best choice.

I'm no Sony worshiper but given the current state of affairs they do seem to have the best picture available--but even at that my advice would be to wait for improved ones or wait to see what unwobulated 1080p rainbowless DLP will be like.

Though my analysis may not jive with everyone's--different people like different things--is my analysis somewhere in the ball-park?

Speculators: what are the chances of unwobulated 1080p Rainbowless DLP by year's end? If it happens how close will the picutre Quality contest be between it and future improved SXRDs?

Again, you have to go to screen sizes beyond the pale (and approaching the Supremely Silly) before 1080p becomes practical, and even then, it would still be a niche application compared to the *rest* of the TV market.

Also, thanks in large part to FOX and Disney, 720p has been set as a benchmark for sports source material in HD (720p is their common format); however, I have seen 1080i done right (thank you CBS and W*USA-DT!) and it's hard to settle for 720p for sports after that.

However, I can't exactly lay the blame on Fox, Disney, or even DirecTV. The typical screen the content is viewed on isn't even 36" (diagonal measure), and *there* the sweet spot is *still* 720p (at typical viewing distances). What is the hot screen size for *current* HDTV sales? Amazingly, it's 32 inches, where LCDs rule. Whether we're talking commercial (OTA) broadcasting, or satellite/cable TV, it's still all about grabbing eyeballs, and those eyeballs are mostly going to be looking at screens sized for 720p, not 1080i (let alone 1080p), so why would I, as a content provider, even BOTHER producing 1080p for wide distribution?
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post #257 of 261 Old 01-30-2006, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommylotto
For what it is worth we have a lawsuit pending in the Los Angeles Superior Court against D* for misleading advertising on the HD package. D* tried to force it to arbitration, but the Court declared their Customer Service Agreement to be unconscionable and unenforceable. However, they appealed that ruling, so we are tied up in a procedural battle for awhile before we can attack HD-lite.
How could someone who is interested in this get involved?
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post #258 of 261 Old 01-31-2006, 04:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PGHammer
The typical screen the content is viewed on isn't even 36" (diagonal measure), and *there* the sweet spot is *still* 720p (at typical viewing distances). What is the hot screen size for *current* HDTV sales? Amazingly, it's 32 inches, where LCDs rule. Whether we're talking commercial (OTA) broadcasting, or satellite/cable TV, it's still all about grabbing eyeballs, and those eyeballs are mostly going to be looking at screens sized for 720p, not 1080i (let alone 1080p), so why would I, as a content provider, even BOTHER producing 1080p for wide distribution?
When the masses shop for a TV the price will be the primary determining factor when making what to them is a significant discretionary purchase. The income disparity in NYS reveals the richest 20% of households have an annual income of $130,000, which is 8X greater than the poorest that earn $16,000 annually. Somewhere in-between this economic extreme is the "typical" buyer who will generally be more inclined to spend $1000 for a 32" LCD TV versus $4000 for a 50" PDP.
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post #259 of 261 Old 01-31-2006, 07:02 AM
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One thing I've come to realize w/CE is the enormous size of this market, whereby even a small percentage of market share represents huge numbers in units sold. Another note, is that millions of Americans have previously purchased large screen 4:3 RPTV's, and will replace them w/another large screen (50+") TV as it's very rare to find someone upgrade to a smaller screen. The push is for large screen, and even the new Toshiba/Canon SED has deemed a 55"er as their target size to enter the market.
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post #260 of 261 Old 02-01-2006, 03:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cajieboy
One thing I've come to realize w/CE is the enormous size of this market, whereby even a small percentage of market share represents huge numbers in units sold. Another note, is that millions of Americans have previously purchased large screen 4:3 RPTV's, and will replace them w/another large screen (50+") TV as it's very rare to find someone upgrade to a smaller screen. The push is for large screen, and even the new Toshiba/Canon SED has deemed a 55"er as their target size to enter the market.
Perhaps the "baby-boom" generation has enough "well-heeled" buyers to sustain the growth rate of BIG screen TVs... but like a thirty-something-year-old cousin of mine that is representative of the typical American middle-class suburban lifestyle... who's wife is a full-time home-maker for his three young children... and who bought a 50" Sony HD LCD-RPTV two years ago... will not be upgrading to a $10,000 TH-65PX600U anytime soon.
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post #261 of 261 Old 02-01-2006, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
Perhaps the "baby-boom" generation has enough "well-heeled" buyers to sustain the growth rate of BIG screen TVs... but like a thirty-something-year-old cousin of mine that is representative of the typical American middle-class suburban lifestyle... who's wife is a full-time home-maker for his three young children... and who bought a 50" Sony HD LCD-RPTV two years ago... will not be upgrading to a $10,000 TH-65PX600U anytime soon.
Right, 2 years is too short ownership for the average person to do an HT Upgrade. Even for myself, I'm on a 5-6 year upgrade plan, going on my 4th year. I purposely used a 4:3 RPTV as I think it will be those millions of folks that purchased their TV's in the 1990's that will be most in need of a new replacement for those older large screen 4:3 RPTV's. Sony just quoted record earnings in Q3 from their sales of their new SXRD RPTV. I'm deep into Rogo territory here!
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