OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 137 - AVS Forum
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post #4081 of 10521 Old 05-14-2012, 04:26 PM
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Does Japan have antitrust laws?

Or is it more about preserving Japanese companies in the face of Korean and Chinese competition?
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post #4082 of 10521 Old 05-14-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

reuters has their initials mixed up. never heard of oel before.

Japan uses the terms OEL (organic electroluminescence) and "organic EL" for OLED's.
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post #4083 of 10521 Old 05-14-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

Does Japan have antitrust laws?

Or is it more about preserving Japanese companies in the face of Korean and Chinese competition?

Joint ventures tend to be legal in Japan. They are much harder to achieve in the U.S., although possible under certain circumstances.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #4084 of 10521 Old 05-14-2012, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

reuters has their initials mixed up. never heard of oel before.

Interesting...we shall see if it's true.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #4085 of 10521 Old 05-15-2012, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

Does Japan have antitrust laws?

Or is it more about preserving Japanese companies in the face of Korean and Chinese competition?

I'm betting there is definitely some "us against them" stuff goin on here. Both non-Japanese companies seem to be kickin butt and maintaining the cutting edge of upcoming technology - while both Japanese companies are hurting badly, sustaining massive loses - to the extent that you wonder if they'll even be around in 2015.
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post #4086 of 10521 Old 05-15-2012, 04:18 AM
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besides cost what other risk is there in being an early adopter on OLED's?...if you have the cash why not?...people keep comparing this to HD-DVD or Betamax etc and they are not the same at all...it's not like the excellent image quality, black levels, thin form factor and color are ever going to become obsolete...with HD-DVD etc you won't be able to continue watching 1080p Blu-rays because they ceased production so you were stuck with a downgraded DVD player (along with whatever current HD-DVD's you have)

with OLED there is no other risk...will your cable provider stop producing content?...no...will Blu-ray's/streaming stop?...no...your OLED quality will be everlasting
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post #4087 of 10521 Old 05-15-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

besides cost what other risk is there in being an early adopter on OLED's?...if you have the cash why not?...people keep comparing this to HD-DVD or Betamax etc and they are not the same at all...it's not like the excellent image quality, black levels, thin form factor and color are ever going to become obsolete...with HD-DVD etc you won't be able to continue watching 1080p Blu-rays because they ceased production so you were stuck with a downgraded DVD player (along with whatever current HD-DVD's you have)

with OLED there is no other risk...will your cable provider stop producing content?...no...will Blu-ray's/streaming stop?...no...your OLED quality will be everlasting

Troy, the risk is in your last sentence, actually. There's a real concern that the first-generation products won't be "everlasting", especially the Samsung ones.

I mean if you're really cost indifferent, that doesn't matter. But the notion that the set might suffer color shift or burn in within just a few years and cost $8000 is, I feel, a real deterrent to buying a first-generation product. Nevermind whatever other first-generation showstoppers emerge.

We can't really know how "everlasting" these TVs are at providing quality until they've been out a few years. Given the price, that's a fairly high risk.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #4088 of 10521 Old 05-17-2012, 05:00 AM
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we can't really know how "everlasting" these tvs are at providing quality until they've been out a few years. Given the price, that's a fairly high risk.

+1
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post #4089 of 10521 Old 05-17-2012, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

besides cost what other risk is there in being an early adopter on OLED's?...if you have the cash why not?...people keep comparing this to HD-DVD or Betamax etc and they are not the same at all...it's not like the excellent image quality, black levels, thin form factor and color are ever going to become obsolete...with HD-DVD etc you won't be able to continue watching 1080p Blu-rays because they ceased production so you were stuck with a downgraded DVD player (along with whatever current HD-DVD's you have)

with OLED there is no other risk...will your cable provider stop producing content?...no...will Blu-ray's/streaming stop?...no...your OLED quality will be everlasting

It is way too early in the process to answer such a question. You are assuming that the makers designed and manufactured a technically flawless product. We will not know if they did or not until after a sizable number of consumers have put the units through their paces for at least a year. I would be very surprised if some defects were not discovered in the first generation of the models now slated to be released this year.
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post #4090 of 10521 Old 05-17-2012, 05:51 AM
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If this report on an Australian site is credible; it would appear that both LG and Samsung are going to engage in OLED gimmicks wars right out of the gate.

Samsung & LG To Launch Dual View OLED TVs In Q3

http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Lar...ED_TV/W6A6S6P3

Excerpted:

" Samsung and LG who are still fighting over 3D technology in the Australian Federal Court, are now set to do battle in the OLED TV market with new dual view' TVs that allow two people to watch separate programs from the same TV.
The new range of dual view OLED TVs are expected to be launched in Australia in September.

Research Company DisplaySearch has said that while LG is still aggressively promoting its Passive 3D TV technology with claims that it was better than what Samsung is offering with their powered Active Shutter technology, the rivals are set to go head to head in the dual TV market with a similar battle to what they have encountered over 3D TV."
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post #4091 of 10521 Old 05-17-2012, 06:06 AM
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It would be great if DisplaySearch's OLED TV Price Drops projections turn out to be on target.


"Good News! OLED TV Prices Will Fall Fast"

http://www.pcworld.com/article/25540...fall_fast.html

"A 55-inch OLED TV priced over $8,000 in the second half of 2012 may cost closer to $2,300 within two years, a dramatic price reduction that would make the sets accessible to mainstream buyers.

That's according to a price forecast from research firm NPD DisplaySearch, which predicts a significant and steady decline in OLED TV prices starting soon after the sets debut.

Samsung today announced that its 55-inch "Super" OLED 3D TV will be available in Korea for around $9,000 in the second half of 2012. The company didn't say when its OLED TV will arrive in the U.S.

Acknowledging a "great deal of uncertainty" surrounding prices of large OLED TVs, NPD DisplaySearch says the price of a 55-inch OLED model could drop roughly 50 percent to around $4,000 by the end of 2013, and continue falling to the $1,500 range by the end of 2015."
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post #4092 of 10521 Old 05-17-2012, 06:22 AM
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^^ Price drop of 30% a year is reasonable, if 8G ramps. The above looks too aggressive
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post #4093 of 10521 Old 05-17-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

^^ Price drop of 30% a year is reasonable, if 8G ramps. The above looks too aggressive

I'm with you on this. The 2-year "forecast" that presumes pricing will fall 70% from the starting price is the kind of thing that has few actual precedents in the history of making anything new. (And before anyone say, "what about iPhone?", Apple's price to carriers has more or less not changed in 5 years... The price we pay is not the real price there).

If we get back-to-back 30% drops, however, that would still be a substantial move toward parity in 2 years. It's just more like $4000 in 2014, not $2300. The latter price assumes the price is being sliced in half two years in a row. Could it happen? Maybe. Will it happen? Seems less likely although it's linked to production in at least two ways:

1) Without higher volumes, there's no way costs will be low enough to justify a price that low at that time. The "lose money on each, make it up on volume" strategy is what these guys are trying to avoid, not repeat.

2) Without the ability to produce many more, there is no real reason to drive the price that low. Selling out of $2300 displays when you could've sold them for $4000 is beyond stupid.

So we'll certainly see. In the meantime, the volumes this year seem headed for the forecast numbers of "thousands to maybe tens of thousands" globally. That's not enough to drive price on its own, but it's enough to get started with mastering production.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #4094 of 10521 Old 05-20-2012, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I mean if you're really cost indifferent, that doesn't matter. But the notion that the set might suffer color shift or burn in within just a few years and cost $8000 is, I feel, a real deterrent to buying a first-generation product. Nevermind whatever other first-generation showstoppers emerge.

I think the burn-in issue is why these sets are always shown at shows but not sold. If they bring these sets to shows with special demo reels going burn-in is no issue. When these get in the field I have a feeling OLED sets will be a nightmare. They will instantly get a bad name as a set that doesn't last like plasma did in the beginning. People will be mad when they watch a movie and see a ghosted image saying "AMMO" and "HEALTH" in the corners after Timmy played Xbox on it all day and try to return the set as being "defective". Stores will drop them as the returns and complaints will be not worth the hassle. They will be happier selling the more robust LCD sets.

I think OLED sets will just be toys for rich boys to go with their Tesla roadsters and high end audio. If you have millions you might not mind having to throw out an $8,000 set and buy a new one every two years. Everyone else will likely stay away, A little better contrast and black level won't be worth the cost and short life.
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post #4095 of 10521 Old 05-20-2012, 09:48 PM
 
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If it's as bad as you predict, LG and Samsung are throwing a whole lotta' cash down the tubes.
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post #4096 of 10521 Old 05-20-2012, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveC19 View Post

I think the burn-in issue is why these sets are always shown at shows but not sold. If they bring these sets to shows with special demo reels going burn-in is no issue. When these get in the field I have a feeling OLED sets will be a nightmare. They will instantly get a bad name as a set that doesn't last like plasma did in the beginning. People will be mad when they watch a movie and see a ghosted image saying "AMMO" and "HEALTH" in the corners after Timmy played Xbox on it all day and try to return the set as being "defective". Stores will drop them as the returns and complaints will be not worth the hassle. They will be happier selling the more robust LCD sets.

I think OLED sets will just be toys for rich boys to go with their Tesla roadsters and high end audio. If you have millions you might not mind having to throw out an $8,000 set and buy a new one every two years. Everyone else will likely stay away, A little better contrast and black level won't be worth the cost and short life.


I don't think Samsung and LG walked blindfolded into mass producing OLED panels.

Samsung and LG produce majority of LCD panels for the TV market, they control it. They can bottleneck it anytime, and aggressively promote OLED to make a break through. It's called marketing.

And when you control a market like they do, you have no reason to believe you will fail.
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post #4097 of 10521 Old 05-21-2012, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo
I mean if you're really cost indifferent, that doesn't matter. But the notion that the set might suffer color shift or burn in within just a few years and cost $8000 is, I feel, a real deterrent to buying a first-generation product. Nevermind whatever other first-generation showstoppers emerge.

I agree - except that most first-gen buyers probably have other things on their agendas though - like being the first on their block to own new stuff. Why velse would they do it? especially if they knew the price was going to be half their purchase price within a year?
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post #4098 of 10521 Old 05-21-2012, 08:21 AM
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I agree - except that most first-gen buyers probably have other things on their agendas though - like being the first on their block to own new stuff. Why velse would they do it? especially if they knew the price was going to be half their purchase price within a year?

I'm just advocating passing and spending one's excess disposable income on something else in 2012. Perhaps a down payment on an M5? Or some built-in 12-burner barbecue?

Your points are spot on, however.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #4099 of 10521 Old 05-21-2012, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Japan uses the terms OEL (organic electroluminescence) and "organic EL" for OLED's.

That is a japanese "manner".
They tend to take things and rename it to make it look new.

Same goes for history, but that is another story.

Samsung and LG might adopt a more radical solution, fixing price to sell lower than production cost.
Sony has done it for the PS3 to force the BR earlier into the market (and beat the HD DVD), and I don't know why it wouldn't work for TV sets.

Just cut prices in half in a year or two, and sell as much as they can while loosing some money.
Production costs will catch up and lower with time. That way though they aren't likely to make profit immediately.
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post #4100 of 10521 Old 05-23-2012, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by brody76 View Post

Samsung and LG might adopt a more radical solution, fixing price to sell lower than production cost.
Sony has done it for the PS3 to force the BR earlier into the market (and beat the HD DVD), and I don't know why it wouldn't work for TV sets.

Just cut prices in half in a year or two, and sell as much as they can while loosing some money.
Production costs will catch up and lower with time. That way though they aren't likely to make profit immediately.

wouldnt we all love for that to happen quickly, but the reality is that it makes no sense for them to engage in this practice. unlike console wars, there's no software/games/licensing to make up for the hardware losses so there isn't a need to sell the hardware at a loss in order to build up a large user base.
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post #4101 of 10521 Old 05-23-2012, 06:13 AM
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wouldnt we all love for that to happen quickly, but the reality is that it makes no sense for them to engage in this practice. unlike console wars, there's no software/games/licensing to make up for the hardware losses so there isn't a need to sell the hardware at a loss in order to build up a large user base.

There is a huge market at stake.

If Samsung and LG stay leaders, they will make enormous profits in the upcoming years. By dominating the market with OLED, they will undoubtedly be selling a lot of OLED panels to other TV makers in the next 10 years = huge profit.

This is what happens when you democratize a technology, you get royalties on everything.

Loose money for 2-3 years, and harvest the fruits later.

PS : I recently got myself a Samsung Galaxy S2, and the screen is unreal.
I've never seen such a fluid and beautiful screen in my life.
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post #4102 of 10521 Old 05-23-2012, 03:19 PM
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The Gillette razor model won't work in this industry, and not in these economic times.

This is going to be a premium product for a couple of years I think.
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post #4103 of 10521 Old 05-24-2012, 11:35 PM
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Does this make sense to anyone knowledgeable in material science? Note the word "Mass-produced"

"-Commercialization of garphene will be earlier than expected, replacing ITO
for touch panels in 2012 and flexible displays in 2013.

- Also, SEC plans to use garphene for semiconductor industry

- 2020F Market growth: Flexible display > Non-Flexible display

- Estimated market size of graphene for smartphones: US$6.6bn

- Why Graphene?

a) Mobility - 100x faster than silicon

b) Strength - 200x stronger than copper

c) Transparency - transmittance ratio 98%

- Price competitiveness: Upper ITO US$140/m2 vs. Mass-produced Graphene US$70/m2" -Hyundai Securities
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post #4104 of 10521 Old 05-25-2012, 10:05 PM
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Graphene rocks. It's a form of carbon that has to be made because it really doesn't happen (a la nanotubes, but it's more like carbon "foil", it's not at all tubular).

Indium in ITO is killer pricey so everyone wants to ditch it, but nothing else transparent and conductive has been found that's practical. Sounds like practical graphene might be just the ticket.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #4105 of 10521 Old 05-26-2012, 01:42 AM
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I have an HTC oled phone and the measurements were up to the standards of the grade1 broadcast crt monitor I have. Gamma and greyscale first rate (however, I have an app that adjusts the rugby balance) the color was very accurate, however slightly oversaturated on all 3 primaries
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post #4106 of 10521 Old 05-26-2012, 08:18 AM
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^^ interesting. How did you conclude that? Did you measure it yourself under dark conditions?IIRC HTC only had an AMOLED phone for a very short time but had bad reviews due to the touch layer, before there was Super AMOLED

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Graphene rocks. It's a form of carbon that has to be made because it really doesn't happen (a la nanotubes, but it's more like carbon "foil", it's not at all tubular).

Indium in ITO is killer pricey so everyone wants to ditch it, but nothing else transparent and conductive has been found that's practical. Sounds like practical graphene might be just the ticket.

Thanks much. I'll look more into this then as a Sammy affiliate is moving into this area. I'm just skeptical about its commercial-bility
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post #4107 of 10521 Old 05-26-2012, 02:56 PM
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Yes, measurements were taken in the same way as I would measure any other display. The Super AMOLED improves in terms of greater light output from the screen due to the touch layer being removed. However, brightness is not about quality. Many reviews of screens as small as 4inch will rarely consider the technical measurement qualities of such a display. The only things most people are interested in, for phone applications, are deep blacks, super whites and Gaudy colours.

The qualities of the measurements most certainly show when viewing films on the display. However, I think CRT and Plasma wins in terms of viewing angle. I've noticed on most AMOLED and SAMOLED a white balance error which show a slightly green tinge when viewed at an angle.
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post #4108 of 10521 Old 05-27-2012, 11:09 PM
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^^ Do you have numbers or measurement report to share? I actually think the green tinge, which is evident in PSP Vita, is likely to be touch layer related. I can't remember if the old HTC OLED is pentile? But then again... are you talking about HTC One S?
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post #4109 of 10521 Old 05-28-2012, 03:43 PM
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I will see if I can upload the hcfr graphs in JPEG format. The phone is European. But lets just say that the gamma was a perfect linear 2.35, from 10ire to 100ire. And rgb Delta tracking errors were below 2 from 10ire to 100ire. Color graph was accurate, just a too wide gamut giving oversaturated colours.
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post #4110 of 10521 Old 05-28-2012, 03:48 PM
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Just to add, reference to green tinge. I noticed this effect on a super AMOLED device, which is suppose to do away with touch layer. Hopefully, the large screens will not exhibit this effect, as they will not have interactive screens
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