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post #6211 of 10697 Old 07-10-2013, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

yes: and even LCD's can burn in, although we have not seen reports of LCD burn in for some time
The difference with LCDs is that they don't "burn" due to uneven wear, the pixels simply get "stuck" in one state. This really only ever happens in situations where the displays are on 24/7 displaying static images, because when you turn an LCD off, the pixels are reset.
While it's technically possible, it's not realistically going to happen in a home environment, even if you're using a computer on them all day, as long as you are turning it off at night - unless the display is faulty.

With CRT, Plasma, OLED etc. the wear is accumulative. This is how Plasmas may end up with uneven wear across the screen with letterboxing "burned" into the screen if someone primarily watches films and little 16:9 content, for example.
With the first couple of generations of OLED, they will probably be more susceptible to burn-in due to the materials being used, which is something they will surely figure out. Part of the problem is that they are trying to drive them to be as bright as an LCD, rather than competing with Plasmas.

Hopefully, they will be able to get them to be as resistant as CRTs in a few years time. Late generation CRTs were almost immune to burn-in from home use scenarios. (even with gamers)
Plasma is always driving its phosphors at 100%, and varying the duration to modulate brightness.
CRT adjusted the brightness of the phosphors directly, so they weren't driven as hard. OLED should be more CRT-like in this regard, being able to vary the brightness of the pixel, rather than using PWM (or similar) to modulate brightness.
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we have seen hundreds of threads where plasma owners have reported burn in issues on $2k plasmas that turned out to be (temporary) image retention
It's true, sometimes image retention only lasts a few days, weeks, or even a couple of months if it gets really bad before subsiding. But they can still get burned permanently, and some people don't want to put up with IR for days on end, even if it will disappear eventually.
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post #6212 of 10697 Old 07-10-2013, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

If I recall correctly, LG uses white phosphors with RGB filters. I agree that the set has likely been abused and that this could be he result of that. However, given that this is the only store that I know of that has tis set on display and on sale, one would think that more care or thought would have gone into this. BTW, it was the only set there with burn in/image retention. They have every set imaginable, from the new Sammy 75" LED, the 85" 4k, the ZT & VT plasmas, the Sammy 8500, 84" Sony and so on.

LG does not use white phosphors. As a practical matter, there is no such thing, although it might be possible such a thing exists somewhere.

LG uses a stacked red, green, and blue phosphor. That stack is driven together to make white. The white is then filtered into red, green, and blue. I'd rather not re-explain why because there are about 500 posts that do this, but that's the way it works.

The reason the blue can wear out in the stack faster is that the stack is driven together and nothing makes the stack age uniformly. It's different materials for each light primary. The blue can still wear faster (and apparently does).

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Perhaps Rogo could chime in regarding BURN-IN with current plasma technology. If I remember correctly he owns a 65" plasma and actually tried very hard to induce burn-in and could not accomplish it.

Yeah, I can't actually get my TV to retain an image, let alone burn in. But keep in mind, I'm not running menus for days (weeks? months?) on end. That's just not a realistic use case for a TV and so I don't believe it reflects something important. That said, there is reason to be concerned about these first-gen LG OLEDs when you see that severe a "burn in" after a relatively short stay in a store. We don't know if they are running them overnight (I'd guess no, but I can't be sure), but the whole thing seems set up to cause the TVs to fail prematurely.

Let me say that running hours of ESPN or similar on my TV, I cannot get a hint of the bars to display on either all-white or all-black fields. I similarly cannot other static bits to "retain" no matter what I do that I consider realistic or even somewhat abusive (like leaving the PS3 on the menus for long stretches). My TV has been calibrated, so it runs "normal" settings, but is most often in "ISF Day" mode, so it's not exactly running dim.

No one should expect anything less than what I have from a $10,000 TV. Or a $5,000 TV. Or even a $3,000 TV. I mean that's a bare minimum of acceptability, in my mind: The idea you should not have to think twice about what you are watching. I will add the caveat that some people seem addicted to one particular channel or to long sessions of gaming as their primary uses. I'm less convinced that those people should buy plasmas. For anyone else, I'm convinced the state of the art is more than good enough.

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post #6213 of 10697 Old 07-10-2013, 07:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

With CRT, Plasma, OLED etc. the wear is accumulative. This is how Plasmas may end up with uneven wear across the screen with letterboxing "burned" into the screen if someone primarily watches films and little 16:9 content, for example.
With the first couple of generations of OLED, they will probably be more susceptible to burn-in due to the materials being used, which is something they will surely figure out. Part of the problem is that they are trying to drive them to be as bright as an LCD, rather than competing with Plasmas.
This actually matches my viewing habits to a "T," and that's simply because of director choice (I predominately watch movies paying no mind to the given aspect ratio nor do I use the zoom feature, as I'd rather not risk cutting off edges of the picture). As a result, the Kuro I recently sold had the upper and lower vertical segments of the screen with less wear than the center portion, which was made obvious on a blank screen or on full-screen content with low lighting. It looks like I will be afflicted by this defect until I jump (back) on the LCD train. ;(
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post #6214 of 10697 Old 07-10-2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The difference with LCDs is that they don't "burn" due to uneven wear, the pixels simply get "stuck" in one state. This really only ever happens in situations where the displays are on 24/7 displaying static images, because when you turn an LCD off, the pixels are reset.
While it's technically possible, it's not realistically going to happen in a home environment, even if you're using a computer on them all day, as long as you are turning it off at night - unless the display is faulty.

I have direct evidence to dispute those claims. We have about a dozen Dell IPS LCD monitors at work that have permanent retention. I also have a different IPS LCD at home that shows image retention that is not yet permanent. The difference between LCD and Plasma is that their burn-in potential is reversed with respect to time. Plasma burn-in risk decreases with age while LCD burn-in risk increases. None of the LCDs showed any retention until about 4 years of use. It's almost like the pixels get lazier with time and take longer and longer to reset. I have no idea if other LCD tech like TN and VA have similar issues. My home LCD was not abused either - set to automatic power off after 20 idle minutes since it was new. I also found legal disclaimers about burn-in in the user manuals of many LCDs.

I will agree with you about last generation CRT. I've got 3 at home that get abused heavily and show no sign of burn-in after many years. Let's hope OLED gets to that level sooner than later. Otherwise you better get an iron-clad warranty that covers burn-in like the extended warranties offered by BB.
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post #6215 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 07:04 AM
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Found a notice from April that Sony Pictures will equip all their remaster and editing suits with Sony 56" 4K OLED monitors by end of 2013.
Can this be re-brands or will Sony be able to mass-produce this for consumer sales from next year?

Regardless of the headline; This is only for Sony's internal use for the moment.
Sony UHD/4K OLED TVs Ready by Late 2013
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post #6216 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Found a notice from April that Sony Pictures will equip all their remaster and editing suits with Sony 56" 4K OLED monitors by end of 2013.
Can this be re-brands or will Sony be able to mass-produce this for consumer sales from next year?

Regardless of the headline; This is only for Sony's internal use for the moment.
Sony UHD/4K OLED TVs Ready by Late 2013

It can't be re-brands, but they can't be close to mass production either. Again, 2015 seems much more likely. My guess is they'll make a few dozen for these edit/mastering suites... Then perhaps 100s for broadcast/internals over the first half of next year... Figure the goal is double-digit to triple-digit thousands in 2015 with true "mass production" the year after.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6217 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 12:43 PM
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Hard to believe that Sony will start internal shipping by the end of the year. If they had any confidence in their production processes, I think they'd be trying to steal at least SOME of the Korean's thunder with a few announcements of their own.


White OLEDs for area lighting have been around for some time. Here's a brag from Panny. See also Philips and Konica-Minolta. For the well heeled, you've been able buy this for a while now:
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

Reunite Pangea!
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post #6218 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 12:53 PM
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Curry's (UK's version of Best Buy) is holding their Curry's PC World Christmas event where they showcase new products to be available for Christmas. One of them is LG's curved OLED tv.
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post #6219 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by navychop View Post


White OLEDs for area lighting have been around for some time. Here's a brag from Panny. See also Philips and Konica-Minolta. For the well heeled, you've been able buy this for a while now:
I wonder if anybody using these panels for building lighting for Photography in the US, that they have to pay license fees to LitePanel that won a patent case for LED lights for use in motion picture, television and photographic lighting in a ruling by Judge Essex of the International Trade Commission in January.

Not that LitePanels invented the LED panels or the use of them. They where just the first company that filed for a patent.

Will such a patent discriminate between OLED and LED light panels?

LitePanels is owned by the Vitecgroup, that has a reputation for buying up companies that hold patents and then leveraging the patents to extract licensing fees. To defend against this case would have cost several million dollars. It was cheaper to do a licensing agreement, as all the named defendants did in this case, because they where small companies that doesn't have the kind of money the Vitecgroup have.

Brands they own; "O Connor" "Sachtler" "Vinten" "Anton Bauer" "Autoscript" "Petrol" "Manfrotto" "Gitzo" "Lastolite" "Kata"

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post #6220 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 02:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by navychop View Post

Hard to believe that Sony will start internal shipping by the end of the year. If they had any confidence in their production processes, I think they'd be trying to steal at least SOME of the Korean's thunder with a few announcements of their own.


White OLEDs for area lighting have been around for some time. Here's a brag from Panny. See also Philips and Konica-Minolta. For the well heeled, you've been able buy this for a while now:
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90
I wonder who will deliver the first A19 OLED bulb, hopefully with the efficiency of that Panasonic invention.
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post #6221 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I wonder who will deliver the first A19 OLED bulb, hopefully with the efficiency of that Panasonic invention.

 

I think we're starting to fall for the O part of OLED for not very cogent reasons.  FWIW, I saw "regular" LED A19's at Home Depot.


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post #6222 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by navychop View Post



White OLEDs for area lighting have been around for some time. Here's a brag from Panny. See also Philips and Konica-Minolta. For the well heeled, you've been able buy this for a while now:

Those produce white light by color mixing red, green and blue from what I can read. They don't directly make white.
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I wonder who will deliver the first A19 OLED bulb, hopefully with the efficiency of that Panasonic invention.

Probably no one ever unless some advantage emerges that doesn't yet exist in making them. Standard "inorganic" OLEDs are now down to $13ish for 60-watt bulbs, I suspect they'll be at $5 by the middle of the decade. Those are dimmable, 2700K, instant on, 20+ year life bulbs that are small enough to work in nearly all fixtures. I'm not sure how much progress needs to be made in A19.
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I think we're starting to fall for the O part of OLED for not very cogent reasons.  FWIW, I saw "regular" LED A19's at Home Depot.

There are a bunch. The ones I refer to above are the Cree's.

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post #6223 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop View Post

White OLEDs for area lighting have been around for some time. Here's a brag from Panny. See also Philips and Konica-Minolta. For the well heeled, you've been able buy this for a while now:

Those produce white light by color mixing red, green and blue from what I can read. They don't directly make white.

 

Yeah, LED's of any kind I've heard of are frequency specific.  They produce a spectral color, or UV, and probably are probably available for many regions of the EMS, though I don't know of any uses.

 

IIRC, the first white LED was created dichromatically by using a yellow phosphor.  Part of the blue excites the yellow with the rest escaping through the yellow.  The spectral yellow frequency stimulates the red and green cones of the eye and of course the blue the blue yielding the white light.  This is still a common technique today I think.


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post #6224 of 10697 Old 07-11-2013, 06:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I think we're starting to fall for the O part of OLED for not very cogent reasons.  FWIW, I saw "regular" LED A19's at Home Depot.
Oh, even Walmart has 'em. I just want to see the above-linked Panasonic development utilized in an A19 bulb to determine what real-world power usage can be achieved at typical 40/60/75W lumen equivalencies. I know the returns will be diminishing, but curiosity has the best of me.
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post #6225 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Those produce white light by color mixing red, green and blue from what I can read. They don't directly make white.
Probably no one ever unless some advantage emerges that doesn't yet exist in making them. Standard "inorganic" OLEDs are now down to $13ish for 60-watt bulbs, I suspect they'll be at $5 by the middle of the decade. Those are dimmable, 2700K, instant on, 20+ year life bulbs that are small enough to work in nearly all fixtures. I'm not sure how much progress needs to be made in A19.
There are a bunch. The ones I refer to above are the Cree's.

I use the Cree fixtures and A19 bulb from Home Depot.
They are excellent. The A19's seem brighter than the lumen rating and run cooler then other LED A19's I have tried.

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post #6226 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Those produce white light by color mixing red, green and blue from what I can read. They don't directly make white.
Probably no one ever unless some advantage emerges that doesn't yet exist in making them. Standard "inorganic" OLEDs are now down to $13ish for 60-watt bulbs, I suspect they'll be at $5 by the middle of the decade. Those are dimmable, 2700K, instant on, 20+ year life bulbs that are small enough to work in nearly all fixtures. I'm not sure how much progress needs to be made in A19.
There are a bunch. The ones I refer to above are the Cree's.

I use the Cree fixtures and A19 bulb from Home Depot.
They are excellent. The A19's seem brighter than the lumen rating and run cooler then other LED A19's I have tried.

- Rich

 

Straying OT, but given the way this thread spins in circles on such limited info it almost seems refreshing.

 

FWIW, the Cree all-in-one recessed lights I put in the ceiling absolutey DO seem significantly brighter than their lumen rating.  But it's a very harsh light, and that's not a color temperature thing.  There's two things going on: the flicker and the nasty directional nature of LEDs in general, but I don't know which overrules which, but I'm betting they work together in a nasty way.  I'm still not completely happy with the effect.


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post #6227 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 09:25 AM
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^^^

I put Phillips Ambient LED bulbs (and the Ecosmart Home Depot equivalent) throughout my home several months after upgrading to a Lutron RRA 2 system: so the dimmers were not rated for LED loads in that they require at least tbd watts load to dim properly: in most cases it worked OK but where it did not, I left one conventional bulb in that circuit

the LED bulb light does indeed seem harsh but you get used to it: I see no flicker: these are PAR 30, 38 and 40 recessed fixtures

by doing so I reduced the air conditioning load by several thousand btu's/ hr : a great investment
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post #6228 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Straying OT, but given the way this thread spins in circles on such limited info it almost seems refreshing.

FWIW, the Cree all-in-one recessed lights I put in the ceiling absolutey DO seem significantly brighter than their lumen rating.  But it's a very harsh light, and that's not a color temperature thing.  There's two things going on: the flicker and the nasty directional nature of LEDs in general, but I don't know which overrules which, but I'm betting they work together in a nasty way.  I'm still not completely happy with the effect.

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^^^

I put Phillips Ambient LED bulbs (and the Ecosmart Home Depot equivalent) throughout my home several months after upgrading to a Lutron RRA 2 system: so the dimmers were not rated for LED loads in that they require at least tbd watts load to dim properly: in most cases it worked OK but where it did not, I left one conventional bulb in that circuit

the LED bulb light does indeed seem harsh but you get used to it: I see no flicker: these are PAR 30, 38 and 40 recessed fixtures

by doing so I reduced the air conditioning load by several thousand btu's/ hr : a great investment

I also detect no flicker, but I believe the "Harshness" comes from their direction nature; they are not easily diffused.

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I exclusively use LEDs from Miracle LED, Array, Xledia, Feit Electric, and two Chinese off-brands. The Arrays are BR30 bulbs used in down recesses and are probably my favorites for the amount of light output at only 7.6 watts, and they don't require fancy dimmers (though the range of dimming is not as linear as I would like). The moment an OLED bulb becomes available (about the time LG releases their OLED TV stateside?), my order is in.
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Straying OT, but given the way this thread spins in circles on such limited info it almost seems refreshing.

FWIW, the Cree all-in-one recessed lights I put in the ceiling absolutey DO seem significantly brighter than their lumen rating.  But it's a very harsh light, and that's not a color temperature thing.  There's two things going on: the flicker and the nasty directional nature of LEDs in general, but I don't know which overrules which, but I'm betting they work together in a nasty way.  I'm still not completely happy with the effect.

We have a couple of "spots", not truly recessed, over the fireplace. I tried a Feit Electric bulb in there rated "Flood". It was super concentrated and, well, too bright. It was ostensibly the right color temp, too, but I had to take them back to Costco. Just too much aggressiveness given you could see the bulb light directly.
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^^^

I put Phillips Ambient LED bulbs (and the Ecosmart Home Depot equivalent) throughout my home several months after upgrading to a Lutron RRA 2 system: so the dimmers were not rated for LED loads in that they require at least tbd watts load to dim properly: in most cases it worked OK but where it did not, I left one conventional bulb in that circuit

the LED bulb light does indeed seem harsh but you get used to it: I see no flicker: these are PAR 30, 38 and 40 recessed fixtures

by doing so I reduced the air conditioning load by several thousand btu's/ hr : a great investment

I don't know what a tbd watt is, but your story is interesting nevertheless. Our family room needs desperately to have recessed lighting here and I'd only do it with all LEDs for heat/power concerns.
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I also detect no flicker, but I believe the "Harshness" comes from their direction nature; they are not easily diffused.

That seems to be my experience detailed above, but I can't entirely be sure. We have another LED bulb in the same room in a lamp which seems not at all harsh, also from Feit. Of course, there's a shade over it.
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I exclusively use LEDs from Miracle LED, Array, Xledia, Feit Electric, and two Chinese off-brands. The Arrays are BR30 bulbs used in down recesses and are probably my favorites for the amount of light output at only 7.6 watts, and they don't require fancy dimmers (though the range of dimming is not as linear as I would like). The moment an OLED bulb becomes available (about the time LG releases their OLED TV stateside?), my order is in.

Just don't hold your breath there Vinnie. smile.gif

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post #6231 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 01:55 PM
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I don't know what a tbd watt is, but your story is interesting nevertheless. Our family room needs desperately to have recessed lighting here and I'd only do it with all LEDs for heat/power concerns.
smile.gif

The Cree 4" fixtures at Home Depot are more advanced than the 6 inch version.
They are composed of Blue LEDs and Red LEDs that are mixed when you dim.
It is a reasonable approximation of the dim to red of an incandescent and they dim much lower.
I had 5 inch cans so I just put them in the existing trims and that worked well.

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post #6232 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 05:31 PM
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I don't know what a tbd watt is, but your story is interesting nevertheless. Our family room needs desperately to have recessed lighting here and I'd only do it with all LEDs for heat/power concerns.
smile.gif

The Cree 4" fixtures at Home Depot are more advanced than the 6 inch version.
They are composed of Blue LEDs and Red LEDs that are mixed when you dim.
It is a reasonable approximation of the dim to red of an incandescent

 

Hmmmmm.....and that is desirable why?  I'm not sure that's what it's attempting to approximate.  I'd guess instead that the Stokes Shift might lose efficiency at lower wattage resulting in a gradual push toward blue.  A red LED added to this would balance that precisely back to the original white/gray curve.

 

BTW, that's interesting.  I don't dim the 4" cree I have, but I had no idea they attempted this at all.


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post #6233 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 05:47 PM
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Hmmmmm.....and that is desirable why?  I'm not sure that's what it's attempting to approximate.  I'd guess instead that the Stokes Shift might lose efficiency at lower wattage resulting in a gradual push toward blue.  A red LED added to this would balance that precisely back to the original white/gray curve.

BTW, that's interesting.  I don't dim the 4" cree I have, but I had no idea they attempted this at all.

I took one apart and examined its behavior when dimmed.
They dim much better than the conventional LED with yellow phosphor smile.gif

- Rich
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post #6234 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Hmmmmm.....and that is desirable why?  I'm not sure that's what it's attempting to approximate.  I'd guess instead that the Stokes Shift might lose efficiency at lower wattage resulting in a gradual push toward blue.  A red LED added to this would balance that precisely back to the original white/gray curve.

BTW, that's interesting.  I don't dim the 4" cree I have, but I had no idea they attempted this at all.

I took one apart and examined its behavior when dimmed.
They dim much better than the conventional LED with yellow phosphor smile.gif

- Rich

 

There still needs to be a yellow phosphor somewhere (YAG or something else) to dichromatically bring it to white, because it's almost certainly relying on the blue LED for the high wattage work.  BTW, curious: wikipedia actually had a mention of an experimental white LED that produced that yellow from the substrate itself rather than a phosphor.  I wonder which way THAT would tip when dimmed.

 

.....anyway.....this OT-topic has run amok here.....


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post #6235 of 10697 Old 07-12-2013, 06:08 PM
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I think running off-topic amok is tolerable given that the alternative is more fictitious press releases from LG and Samsung about delivering these TVs to non-existent customers.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6236 of 10697 Old 07-13-2013, 07:25 AM
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I am curious what all the plasma people will do when Plasma goes the way of CRT and OLED never arrives....

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post #6237 of 10697 Old 07-13-2013, 08:11 AM
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I am curious what all the plasma people will do when Plasma goes the way of CRT and OLED never arrives....

Before that, I will buy more Plasma's.
According to avjunkie (Panasonic insider on the AH forum), they will be making Plasma's next year.
My Plan, stock up.

If OLED continues to be non viable, then either Panasonic will scale down and milk their Plasma or sell the IP to someone who may use it...

I will wait and see.

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post #6238 of 10697 Old 07-13-2013, 08:37 AM
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I feel badly for the videophiles in my income bracket... I may not be able to afford a new Plasma on Panasonic's last year... Let alone 3 or 4 so I have quality TVs for the duration...

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post #6239 of 10697 Old 07-13-2013, 08:39 AM
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interesting comments from Charles Hansen, President of Ayre Acoustics: he keeps a new spare Kuro in a box:

"Actually we were ahead of the time. We knew that 3D would flop as there were so many problems with it. In my meeting with one of the top Japanese manufacturers of A/V equipment they said that 3D had failed miserably. However, they had high hopes for 4K. They said that the images were so bright and detailed that they actually looked more dimensional than "3D". Plus there is no need to wear the silly glasses. I have not seen 4K myself, but the effect is apparently like the "Retina" screens on the Apple devices, or the smart phones that have 1920 x 1080 on a 4" screen, where the information density is simply staggering.. The biggest stumbling block with that will be the price. I heard of one display that was $12,000 (I think), but my brother said that he saw a review of a 4K display that looked glorious. But it was $55,000. Clearly the prices will have to come down a long, LONG way before we see any mass-market acceptance. And without mass-market acceptance, there will be no titles, as there is nobody to sell the discs to.... Don't forget that the market penetration for Blu-ray DISCS (not players) is still quite low, as the average person has such a poor display that even Blu-ray looks terrible.

It was also interesting because the Japanese manufacturer said that the Chinese companies are building their own screens now. And instead of OEM or ODM sales of these screens, they are creating new brands to sells the screens themselves. But he said they have a long way to go. He saw one Chinese 4K display that actually looked very good when fed 4K source material, but when fed anything else it looked terrible. As usual, everything becomes a race to the bottom.The normal consumer looks at two numbers -- the inches and the price: "I got a 50" flatscreen at Costco for $500!" They know NOTHING about picture quality, or reliability or availability of spare parts. I still have a final generation 50" Kuro monitor in a sealed box waiting for the right time to open it up and enjoy it. I don't know if that picture quality will ever be surpassed. The people that are hard-core vacuum tube fans will pay many, many hundreds of dollars for sealed New Old Stock tubes from the 1930s. We purchased 500,000 of all of Toshiba's low noise JFET's for audio use when they were announced as end of life. That should be a 50 to 100 year supply. Nobody will ever build transistors that good ever again. Instead they simply want to make everything as small as possible so that you can have 40 Mpixel cameras in your smart phones...."

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1181755/ayre-dx-5-bluray-player/1170#post_23523500
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post #6240 of 10697 Old 07-13-2013, 09:20 AM
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I feel badly for the videophiles in my income bracket... I may not be able to afford a new Plasma on Panasonic's last year... Let alone 3 or 4 so I have quality TVs for the duration...

Check out this review of the Panasonic ST60:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-panasonic-tc-p60st60-3d-plasma-hdtv

This display is better than any Plasma last year including the VT50 and it is very reasonably priced.

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