OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 226 - AVS Forum
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post #6751 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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How much of a visual distraction is the outer frame to the eye?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFB-cAWKMwg

Looking at it on this Samsung clip, it looks like it might be. I find it strange that for the past few years the manufacturers have been promoting ever narrower bezels, and now Samsung has decided to hang them inside a much wider frame, which creates a wide boundary on each side of the actual picture.
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post #6752 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

How much of a visual distraction is the outer frame to the eye?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFB-cAWKMwg

Looking at it on this Samsung clip, it looks like it might be. I find it strange that for the past few years the manufacturers have been promoting ever narrower bezels, and now Samsung has decided to hang them inside a much wider frame, which creates a wide boundary on each side of the actual picture.

 

Yeah, to me there was something about that frame that looked ..... oddly in the way somehow.  I can't wait for them to perfect this TV, get the brightness up enough to manage very tight pulses, etc., etc., etc.  I was glad to hear someone call it "oh el ee dee" instead of the increasingly common "oh led", which I can't quite get my mind around.


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #6753 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 01:54 PM
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Cnet measured the black level of the Samsung set at .00004f/l, which I believe is around the same measurement that Sony was showing in charts for their OLED broadcast monitors. Although, David Katzmeier wasn't sure if his reading was accurate. Has anyone been able to see one of these sets in a light controlled environment yet?

D-Nice, when are you getting your hands on one of these sets for a review? Tweaked Kuro vs. OLED?

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post #6754 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 02:02 PM
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post #6755 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

How much of a visual distraction is the outer frame to the eye?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFB-cAWKMwg

Looking at it on this Samsung clip, it looks like it might be. I find it strange that for the past few years the manufacturers have been promoting ever narrower bezels, and now Samsung has decided to hang them inside a much wider frame, which creates a wide boundary on each side of the actual picture.

It's hard to put into words just how freaking awful that frame is. When I first saw the basic design at CES, I was dumbfounded that Samsung thought this was progress when it basically undid years of that and was displeasing aesthetically to boot. It's actually worse on the smaller 55" than it is on the larger 84", where it's already awful. You can't stop looking at it and it traps the stuff between itself and the TV because it's on more or less (not even exactly, which is worse!) the same plane. I believe it ranks in the bottom 5 of all TVs in the flat-panel era for industrial design. No one will miss it when it goes away in the next generation Samsungs.

Also, before some of you chime in to explain that you like it, I'm sure you believe that. Really I am. But from a TV watching perspective, it adds negative value in about 4 different ways. You won't enjoy it if you end up with it; you might grow to ignore it though.
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"This may not look like much, but it is a quantum leap in television performance."

Nice. biggrin.gif

The Sound and Vision author writes: "As an unabashed fanboy of OLED, I’m practically giddy that we finally have TVs to check out. Is the KN55S9C better than the current king of picture quality, the Panasonic ZT60? Yes, it sure seems like "

So when people keep asking me why I claim no one is calling this revolutionary vs. existing TVs, I'd point out phrases like "it sure seems to be" are not exactly the same as. "Yes, it's much better than the ZT60." Essentially, this guy is saying, "The TV is a bit better. I think."

Same article, he quotes his colleague Al:

"The image put out by the set, while not perfect (more on that to come) proves that OLED is capable of satisfying the core requirements of serious videophiles. "

Again, capable of satisfying is a lot different from "blowing away". Do you think it's a coincidence that reviewer after reviewer chooses that very non-hyperbolic phrases? I sure don't.

Editor Rob did say contrast was "absolutely mesmerizing" and I don't doubt that. Of course, it's pretty freaking mesmerizing on a ZT60 or Samsung F8500 and he didn't draw a comparison. So we don't know how much more mesmerizing he meant to imply.

But like every other review, Sound and Vision seems to echo the same themes: The TV is great, but only a little bit greater than other things you can buy for 1/3 the price. (And by the way, S&V points out -- like I and others have -- that those other things are bigger, too.)
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6756 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 09:41 PM
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If this holds out to be true...a 65" 4K UHD Sony vs. a Panasonic zt60. $5000 vs 3700-4000. That would be a pretty tough call. Drop an extra grand for the UHD or hold out. That's almost too close to call.
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post #6757 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tlwiz1 View Post

If this holds out to be true...a 65" 4K UHD Sony vs. a Panasonic zt60. $5000 vs 3700-4000. That would be a pretty tough call. Drop an extra grand for the UHD or hold out. That's almost too close to call.

I think its a pretty easy choice. ZT and buy an ST60 for your bedroom with the money you saved.
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post #6758 of 10512 Old 08-23-2013, 10:22 PM
 
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So much for that bookend. wink.gif $3100 is the bottom line price for the ZT60 so far (that I personally achieved, plus tax). Based on the 2013 shootout results, I think jumping on the UHD bandwagon is unnecessary this year (along with the prospect of the new HDMI revision rendering you with premature obsolescence).
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post #6759 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlwiz1 View Post

If this holds out to be true...a 65" 4K UHD Sony vs. a Panasonic zt60. $5000 vs 3700-4000. That would be a pretty tough call. Drop an extra grand for the UHD or hold out. That's almost too close to call.

The Sony price change is definitely true.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6760 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 01:53 AM
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If you're near Chicago, it looks like ABT now has them in stock and on display in their store. Estimated Delivery Date Aug 29th - Sep 2nd :

http://www.abt.com/product/71818/Samsung-KN55S9.html

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post #6761 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 05:59 AM
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That straight on view of the Samsung set up in the Abt clip, reinforces my take that the frame is an ugly visual distraction. Of course it will make it easy for a young child to grab a hold of and pull the display down, so it does have that selling point going for it.wink.gif

Notice how highly reflective the screen is.
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post #6762 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

That straight on view of the Samsung set up in the Abt clip, reinforces my take that the frame is an ugly visual distraction. Of course it will make it easy for a young child to grab a hold of and pull the display down, so it does have that selling point going for it.wink.gif

Notice how highly reflective the screen is.

Great Safety Point!
We have enough children getting into trouble pulling TVs down, without the Manufacturer now actually giving them handles to make it even easier! Plus at this price point, you're not going to go out and buy another! (Insurance Claim anyone?)
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post #6763 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 09:48 AM
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Do we have any female readers? I wonder if the Samsung design appeals to women. There must be some demographic that finds this design attractive.

For the products I work on, we routinely bring in random customers to give feedback. Anything with such a universal negative reaction would never make it to market. I find it hard to believe a large company like Samsung would not perform similar market research.
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post #6764 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 09:59 AM
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2:35:1 and the like scope films are a mess on this set. The distortion due to the curve is so obvious with the bars as to be insane. I don't care how black the blacks are with such a bent picture.
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post #6765 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 10:22 AM
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2:35:1 and the like scope films are a mess on this set. The distortion due to the curve is so obvious with the bars as to be insane. I don't care how black the blacks are with such a bent picture.
Huh? What do you think this is? A 180° display?
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post #6766 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Do we have any female readers? I wonder if the Samsung design appeals to women. There must be some demographic that finds this design attractive.

I expect female readers would hate it more. They usually have better taste tongue.gif

I like the Samsung video claim that curved screens give you better visibility off angle.
Huh? How does increasing the angle off angle ever look better tongue.gif

Curved screens were created to keep focus on projected images.

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post #6767 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

That straight on view of the Samsung set up in the Abt clip, reinforces my take that the frame is an ugly visual distraction. Of course it will make it easy for a young child to grab a hold of and pull the display down, so it does have that selling point going for it.wink.gif

Notice how highly reflective the screen is.

So, there's often a collective delusion at AVS about just how reflective most screens are. But the Samsung LCDs are mirror-like already and this is, well, probably worse.
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Do we have any female readers? I wonder if the Samsung design appeals to women. There must be some demographic that finds this design attractive.

For the products I work on, we routinely bring in random customers to give feedback. Anything with such a universal negative reaction would never make it to market. I find it hard to believe a large company like Samsung would not perform similar market research.

My wife works in home furnishings. Her description was, "Hideous." She especially hated how by framing the stuff between your TV and the edge of the bezel/frame, it called extra attention to it.

And, no, Wizz, this was never tested. Absolutely not outside Korea, and probably not even there. I also doubt focus groups even would work in Korea. People would know it was Samsung or LG and culturally, it would be very hard to call out the products in such a setting given that you'd be getting paid to be there. In the U.S., Americans have no trouble saying, "Wow, that's freaking ugly, where's my 100 bucks?"
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I expect female readers would hate it more. They usually have better taste tongue.gif

I like the Samsung video claim that curved screens give you better visibility off angle.
Huh? How does increasing the angle off angle ever look better tongue.gif

Curved screens were created to keep focus on projected images.

Since when is bogus marketing a new thing on TVs, Rich?

As for hating it more, my wife can't tell me if my assessment of "bottom 5 all time" has any meaning to her, she hasn't seen as many TVs as I have. But she reiterated, "hideous".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6768 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I expect female readers would hate it more. They usually have better taste tongue.gif

I like the Samsung video claim that curved screens give you better visibility off angle.
Huh? How does increasing the angle off angle ever look better tongue.gif

Curved screens were created to keep focus on projected images.

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Never mind what curved screens were created for, it's a mathematically provable that for most cases you'll get higher HFOV than if you were using a flat screen of the same diagonal / width.
"b-but distortion!"
You get distortion anyway (except for when you're sitting at the right place at the right time). This is just a different type of distortion.
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post #6769 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

How much of a visual distraction is the outer frame to the eye?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFB-cAWKMwg

Looking at it on this Samsung clip, it looks like it might be. I find it strange that for the past few years the manufacturers have been promoting ever narrower bezels, and now Samsung has decided to hang them inside a much wider frame, which creates a wide boundary on each side of the actual picture.


I like the quote from the young lady from techlicious saying she
can't believe how quickly they've come to market.


Are they really on the market yet when i'm still looking for the first u.s. set in
someones home?

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post #6770 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 08:16 PM
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Just saw 55" LG OLED on display at the Best Buy at the Magnolia on Ashland and Elston in Chicago. No crappy frame here.

The demo was excellent (Nemo) but they could not (would not) play the same source that was on the Panasonic and other sets in the room. Yes, in my opinion the curved screen is distracting. Maybe the same as migrating from the 3x4 CRT to the 16x9 flat panels? Aside from that I think I want one but they need to show me some typical sourced material and reduce the price by 3/4 from the posted $14,999 (I wonder if they give bonus points for buying at list).

Is it time to start an owners thread? This one, at 225 pages, is getting long in the tooth. /smile.gif
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post #6771 of 10512 Old 08-24-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by viclaw View Post

Just saw 55" LG OLED on display at the Best Buy at the Magnolia on Ashland and Elston in Chicago. No crappy frame here.

The demo was excellent (Nemo) but they could not (would not) play the same source that was on the Panasonic and other sets in the room. Yes, in my opinion the curved screen is distracting. Maybe the same as migrating from the 3x4 CRT to the 16x9 flat panels? Aside from that I think I want one but they need to show me some typical sourced material and reduce the price by 3/4 from the posted $14,999 (I wonder if they give bonus points for buying at list).

Is it time to start an owners thread? This one, at 225 pages, is getting long in the tooth. /smile.gif

It's time to start an owners thread as soon as an owner posts one.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6772 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 05:37 AM
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My experience with passive 3d on the LG set was awesome, as long as you're in the front and center sweet spot. That was the best 3d I've seen, and the first time it's been worthwhile.

Rogo, I'm pretty sure that the Sound and Vision article said the contrast was orders of magnitude better, especially in low apl-I'm guessing this was in a light controlled environment. I did check out a ZT60 playing blu ray, which was right up there with the oled, though.

The actual picture itself really seems to have this dark depth of plasma, but the sharpness and brightness of lcd, making for a slightly different looking image. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these sets fully calibrated, but the initial reports are that they're doing this well.

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post #6773 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 06:34 AM
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LG's 55 inch OLED is rolling out to Germany this week for about $12,000. http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/25/lg-55-inch-curved-oled-tv-germany/
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post #6774 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 09:55 AM
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People saying these oled sets aren't as big a leap as kuro was are just fanboys in denial.

If either of these sets said "Panasonic" on them, 50 percent of posters would be saying nothing else comes close.

Saw the LG at best buy, it's the best by far in the store.

Once they are priced more competitively they will take over.

The question is will the Chinese step up an release ultra high end lcd at ultra low prices before that can happen?

4k seems to say maybe.

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post #6775 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 10:14 AM
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Anyone in SoCal area who wishes to check out the Samsung - it is now available at Paul's TV in Irvine, CA. Couple of the Best Buy's also have the LG (see store list I posted earlier). I'll be doing extensive testing of both models sometime this week. I think I'll leave my credit cards at home - just to make sure I don't do something I'll regret later. biggrin.gif

Edit: Looks like you can also now get the Samsung up in LA (see lower left of ad): https://www.videoandaudiocenter.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/homepage/LAT82313.gif

Maybe we'll see the owner's thread open this week.
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post #6776 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 01:52 PM
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Though the Curved Samsung is much cheaper and is considered the better TV i want to remind folks that Samsung will adopt LG's white OLED plus color filter technology. And according to Samsung officials the company will start the manufacture of AMOLED with white OLED plus color filter technology in late 2013
http://touchdisplayresearch.com/?m=201302
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post #6777 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

M
Rogo, I'm pretty sure that the Sound and Vision article said the contrast was orders of magnitude better, especially in low apl-I'm guessing this was in a light controlled environment. I did check out a ZT60 playing blu ray, which was right up there with the oled, though.

You are making my point. Who cares what some metered reading says? Every single qualitative measure says this is a marginal improvement. That is absolutely something to applaud and be interested in, although at 3x the price, in a smaller size, and with a curved screen, perhaps not very interested in.

And as for quantitative measures, I direct everyone touting "orders of magnitude" of contrast improvement to the same physiology the smug, anti-4K forces like to trot out. Humans can only perceive on the order of 10K:1 contrast at any one time. (It may be slightly higher, but it is not significantly higher. Feel free to insert 15K:1 as some sort of absolute max).

ZT60s already exceed the limits of humans. I quote HDGuru: "The ZT60 creates a contrast ratio of 38,454.54 to 1 in Bright Room Mode and 27,636.26 to 1 in the THX Cinema Mode. We also performed adjustments in the Custom Mode. We obtained a maximum light output of 47.1 ft. lamberts."

Now, there is a gigantic caveat there and it's really important. ZT60s don't do this on all content. The reason is that plasma ABL will affect enough scenes that peak whites will fall from, say, 47 ft/L to 15 on a fair amount of content. But you might want to observe that even if you cut those ratios down by 2/3 they are still close to the limits of humans.

What does this mean? It means that there is room for improvement in contrast-ratio perception. There is not room for anything resembling even a single order of magnitude improvement, let alone several. (Measuring CR on the OLEDs is going to get pointless if the black truly is black by the way, because CR becomes infinite, not "several orders of magnitude" better. If black is anything other than absolutely freaking black-as-a-black-hole black, CR will likely not measure even one order of magnitude better. While doubling the calibrated white level is certainly doable, reducing the black level by 80% and yet still having that be measurable seems pretty unlikely... But this is a sideshow anyway...)

People are advised -- as they were in 2005 and the contrast-ratio wars -- not to get caught up in useless specmanship but rather in (a) what they intellectually know to be possible (b) what they can actually see (c) what every single review has said to date.
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The actual picture itself really seems to have this dark depth of plasma, but the sharpness and brightness of lcd, making for a slightly different looking image. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these sets fully calibrated, but the initial reports are that they're doing this well.

I don't doubt you'll find it "the best TV ever". I'm certainly not arguing with anyone who does. A good analogy might be to note that Usain Bolt is the best sprinter ever. He's electric to watch and does things no one has ever done. But at the end of the day, he's only a little bit faster than, say, Carl Lewis in his prime. If I needed 100 meters run to go grab some medicine and get it to a dying child and (calendar be damned for a moment), I could have either of them do the job at their peak, well, Lewis would also save the kid.
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

People saying these oled sets aren't as big a leap as kuro was are just fanboys in denial.

If either of these sets said "Panasonic" on them, 50 percent of posters would be saying nothing else comes close.

I won't speak for a single other person, but they could brand it "Rogo" and I'd tell people, "I believe I have created a TV that is better than anything out there. A bit better, but definitely better."
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Once they are priced more competitively they will take over.

This remains the single most irrelevant point made about OLEDs for a decade. I don't mean to call you out, but it's hard to imagine a more irrelevant point. "Once a Ferrari costs what a Corvette does, the Chevy is toast."

If someone is the market for a Ferrari (OLED) today, they should consider the downsides (unknown longevity, weird/ugly design, price, small size, etc.) and make a choice. If someone was in the market for a Corvette, they should just buy one. The fact that Ferrari might someday go more mass market is so completely irrelevant to that purchase decision it needs to be summarily disregarded.
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The question is will the Chinese step up an release ultra high end lcd at ultra low prices before that can happen?

4k seems to say maybe.

So now you're saying better LCD might stop the OLED takeover dead in its tracks. Boy, that directly contradicts the idea that OLED will take over, doesn't it.

In fact, that's been the argument of irkuck and myself for way too many posts (to be clear, we are on the same side of that argument).

I still remain cautiously optimistic that within 3 years, OLEDs will be (a) much more affordable and (b) in more interesting sizes and form factors. I'm less sure than a lot of people that the sale of tiny quantities of really expensive curved ones actually proves much in that regard. I remember how Quadrophonic sound was going to take over. I see the continued presence of features like 3-D on TVs and Surround Sound on receivers as being ubiquitous in availability but adopted by only a small, small sliver of the marketplace (yes, even Surround Sound).

I also wonder if you took a top-end plasma, a top-end LCD and one of these OLEDs and asked regular folks to rate them on a scale of 0-10 in a reasonably lit room, what kind of ratings you'd get. If we arbitrarily decide the OLED would get 10, I doubt the others would get less than 8 and almost certainly not less than 7. When looking at 3-4x the cost (or more for the LG still?!?), I think ignoring that is like pretending the Ferrari isn't wildly more expensive than the Corvette.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6778 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 03:37 PM
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So much for that bookend. wink.gif $3100 is the bottom line price for the ZT60 so far (that I personally achieved, plus tax). Based on the 2013 shootout results, I think jumping on the UHD bandwagon is unnecessary this year (along with the prospect of the new HDMI revision rendering you with premature obsolescence).

Vinnie - just completed purchase last Sunday and delivery Friday of 60" ZT60 at approx. $ 600.00 less that the price you are showing. Went into BB asked if they would match their own previous low price since less than 30 days ago. They agreed and threw in 24 month 0% financing plus a coupon for 10% off additional purchases in the next 30 days.

Yes the ZT is good. No, demand has not overwhelmed supply at this time. One note, BB in Memphis said that at this time they would be receiving no more of the 60" ZT60's. At that time, only twelve in stock. The truck that delivered mine delivered nine ZT60's (I forgot to ask which size) to one customer who wanted all left in the box which is why they showed up at my house three hours early. The other guy must be preparing for the plasma apocalypse.

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post #6779 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

The actual picture itself really seems to have this dark depth of plasma, but the sharpness and brightness of lcd, making for a slightly different looking image. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these sets fully calibrated, but the initial reports are that they're doing this well.
You weren't trying but you made that sound so edible.
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post #6780 of 10512 Old 08-25-2013, 03:53 PM
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People saying these oled sets aren't as big a leap as kuro was are just fanboys in denial.

If either of these sets said "Panasonic" on them, 50 percent of posters would be saying nothing else comes close.

Saw the LG at best buy, it's the best by far in the store.

Once they are priced more competitively they will take over.

The question is will the Chinese step up an release ultra high end lcd at ultra low prices before that can happen?

4k seems to say maybe.

Speaking of the Japanese, what are they up to?

Didn't they set up a display consortium along with the Japanese govt. a couple of years ago?

Didn't Sony after Hirai took over pursue some other tech (guess they dropped their pursuit of OLED)?
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