OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 280 - AVS Forum
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post #8371 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I of course can't claim he's doing this (he could be 100% right), but I can absolutely assure anyone that there is a psychosomatic "bump" for many just having the apple logo show up.

Apple has done a tremendous number of things right.  But...




....if you hear the "whaaaaaaa" choir of angles sound when you see it, you'll know you're susceptible to the effect.

Some might, but people know me as a reputable video enthusiast and I'm not influenced by such things. It's best that you just check it out for yourself and share your opinions with us about it if you wish. You and everyone else is absolutely entitled to your own opinion on the matter and if you can't see any difference between the devices more power to you. cool.gif

 

Fair enough.  Like I said: you "could be 100% right".


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post #8372 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RadTech51 View Post

Nope they don't, and to my knowledge the only device out right now that can accurately stream 1080p is the Apple TV. Big difference visually check out the other devices in comparison if you don't believe.
Video encoding/decoding is not my field of expertise, but people that I have spoken with that do it for a living, tell me that the H.264 spec is designed so that decoding is bit-perfect and that decoders should all output the same image.
Error handling is one area where I have seen a difference between decoders, but that's minimal, and errors should be rare.

Now there might be other reasons why the Apple TV looks better (faster hardware to better handle streaming, pulling higher bitrates from netflix vs the blu-ray player, additional processing stages - or fewer, etc.) but there really shouldn't be much of a difference at all if you're streaming 1080p video.
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post #8373 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 11:26 AM
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I plan on buying a 4K OLED in the next 3 years and will watch on a 4K Blu-ray player for best picture and sound. Big deal if it takes 5 minutes for the movie to start - i put the disc in, go to the bathroom, have a snack - when i'm ready so is the movie!
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post #8374 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 11:33 AM
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I plan on buying a 4K OLED in the next 3 years and will watch on a 4K Blu-ray player for best picture and sound. Big deal if it takes 5 minutes for the movie to start - i put the disc in, go to the bathroom, have a snack - when i'm ready so is the movie!
I'm paying to watch the movie, not 10 minutes of adverts and trailers to try and sell me something else before I get to see what I paid for. That's part of the reason I don't watch broadcast.
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post #8375 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 12:24 PM
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I agree we should be able to jump right to the movie. That said, while I usually leave the room while the disc advances, watching the trailers after the movie is perfectly ok.

Do we now wait for 2014 IFA or CEDIA for news on new OLED models?
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post #8376 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 01:22 PM
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If OLED becomes the go to main stream display how do you think they will be marketed. What will separate the low end, mid level, and flagship models from a manufacture? Won't the OLED technology itself deliver stunning PQ at even the lowest level?
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post #8377 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 02:55 PM
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If OLED becomes the go to main stream display how do you think they will be marketed. What will separate the low end, mid level, and flagship models from a manufacture? Won't the OLED technology itself deliver stunning PQ at even the lowest level?
Probably a purposefully bad color decoder, lack of CMS, lack of motion interpolation... missing adjustments in general, really. Oh, also lack of "SMART" TV... etc., etc.

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post #8378 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I'm paying to watch the movie, not 10 minutes of adverts and trailers to try and sell me something else before I get to see what I paid for. That's part of the reason I don't watch broadcast.
I agree that I don't like watching the advertising (or especially preachy PSAs!), but I DO like the previews (and yeah, I know they're a sort of ad too), its just that previews add to the 'going to the movies' atmosphere!). If you don't like them, pressing >>I on the remote allows you to skip the previews if you want to.
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post #8379 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 04:30 PM
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Probably a purposefully bad color decoder, lack of CMS, lack of motion interpolation... missing adjustments in general, really. Oh, also lack of "SMART" TV... etc., etc.
I don't think a lack of smartness will have much effect since you can buy a brand name smart blu=ray player for less than $70. Probably shouldn't need too much in the way of adjustments with a brand name OLED. Maybe eliminate 3D on some models. Sound quality shouldn't matter to most. I think messing with overall PQ on less than flagship models would be a big mistake. I really can't think of much value that you can ad to a upper level model.
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post #8380 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 07:21 PM
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It's a huge mistake to say "CD sales are not vanishing" therefore a new disc format is coming.

Ditto BluRay and DVD. The fact is, CD and DVD sales are shrinking (apparently rapidly) and the prospects for a new disc format have never been worse.

BluRay is somewhat popular, but its popularity is a fraction that of DVD. Again, it's nearly impossible to rent in America and, contrary to what many of you experience, rental has been far and away the dominant experience associated with pre-recorded media. I can tell you as a regular Redbox customer in Silicon Valley, the kiosk is still dominate by DVD. When my last Blockbuster closed, the same was true. Netflix doesn't much rent BluRay, compared to DVD.

As for sales, they are only going in one direction. Though BluRay actually edged up to 124 million discs in the U.S. last year (a good sign and why it's not going away soon), DVD fell 13.6% on larger volumes. It's very likely BluRay will see that number as a peak, never to be reached again.

As OT as this 4K Blu Ray discussion is, I have to agree with Rogo on this one. Netflix announced earnings today and the subscriber metrics below were included.

"Netflix Inc. ended December with 33.4 million U.S. subscribers who stream video over high-speed Internet connections, up from 31.1 million in September.... Meanwhile, the DVD-by-mail service is gradually dying as more subscribers abandon watching video on physical discs. The company ended December with 6.9 million DVD subscribers, down from 13.9 million in September 2011."

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/2014/01/22/netflix-adds-more-subscribers-banner/T2I43qmyFD2JVRkvdIsweP/story.html

So Netflix lost 50% of its DVD customers in 2 years!

Furthermore Blockbuster discontinued its DVD by mail service in December to which I was a subscriber. It cost $5 a month for 2 Blu Rays. So now the options to rent Blu Rays are as follows.

1. Local video store.
2. Blockbuster by Mail
3. Netflix DVD at twice the price ($10 a month) as long as it lasts.
4. Redbox (only new releases.)

What is the business case for 4K Blu Ray? That a few avsforum members are going to replace their Blu Ray collections that just replaced their DVD collections?

My guess is that a substantial group of people who purchase 4K LCDs(or flat OLEDs when they are available!) also have the high speed internet connections necessary to support 4K streaming.

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post #8381 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 07:49 PM
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6.9 million customers renting is a lot of customers, that's over $80 million a month
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post #8382 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 09:08 PM
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LG Display’s OLED manufacturing yield to rise sharply. It is no secret that the manufacturing yields of LGD’s OLED TV panels were so low last year — estimates were between 10% and 30% — that they severely impacted the number of panels that could be produced and kept their cost high. Now, LGD executives tell me the internal yield target for the new OLED plant opening in Q3 is 75% -
See more at: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2014/01/hdtv-expert-display-surprises-at-ces-2014.php#sthash.S5Zm8iRy.dpuf
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post #8383 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post

6.9 million customers renting is a lot of customers, that's over $80 million a month

You understand that on Netflix, of those 6.9 million very, very few pay the upcharge to rent BluRays.

Let's hope that yield wish comes true. Right now, it's a goal though.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8384 of 10552 Old 01-22-2014, 11:13 PM
 
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Such bleakness that I find hard to argue with, but this just makes 4K virtually stillborn with so little in the way of quality content.

LG purportedly was at 70% last year, so 75% would be the minimum bump I'd expect a year later.
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post #8385 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 12:49 AM
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This is why I've been using a HTPC for playback for years now. With the right player (I use JRiver) menus are completely bypassed and the film starts immediately. No trailers or ads.
I've been doing it so long now that I forgot how much of a nightmare it was to play them on dedicated hardware. I wouldn't be buying discs either if I had to put up with that.

So you're saying you won't be buying a 4K disc format if pirates don't hack it first? None of what you mentioned above would be possible otherwise.

I think piracy is another reason why streaming will take over. It's much easier to DRM. Just look at what's happening with 4K streaming now. Netflix will only be making it available through the integrated players inside newer TVs because this method is secure. They have stated they have no plans to offer it on any other platforms due to lacking proper DRM (in addition to lacking HEVC decoders).
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post #8386 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 01:17 AM
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So you're saying you won't be buying a 4K disc format if pirates don't hack it first? None of what you mentioned above would be possible otherwise.
Pirates? I have the right to back up my media, or format-shift it, as long as I retain the original disc. I am not living in the US where the law is made for corporations rather than citizens' rights.
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I think piracy is another reason why streaming will take over. It's much easier to DRM.
If it can be decoded for playback, there will be a way to capture the decoded stream. DRM never works - it only harms legitimate customers, restricting what devices they can use to play back their media, or what they can do with it. (e.g. transfer it to a mobile device, stream the video around their home etc.)


But no, I won't be buying 4K discs if they are locked down and I can't use my media player of choice to bypass the menus and play the film directly, or back it up to my media server so that I don't need to have shelves full of discs on display, or stream it to multiple devices around the house.
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post #8387 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 02:16 AM
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If it can be decoded for playback, there will be a way to capture the decoded stream. DRM never works.

If Netflix only allows 4K streaming using the internal Netflix app on selected smart TV's, not on external devices, the signal never goes over HDMI. How will capture be done?
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post #8388 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 02:33 AM
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If Netflix only allows 4K streaming using the internal Netflix app on selected smart TV's, not on external devices, the signal never goes over HDMI. How will capture be done?
Capture the data going over your network and break the DRM? Capture the signal going between the processor board and the LVDS (or similar?) connector? Extract the keys from the hardware?

I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm saying that someone will figure it out, if it's the only way to get 4K content.
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post #8389 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 05:56 AM
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So you're saying you won't be buying a 4K disc format if pirates don't hack it first? None of what you mentioned above would be possible otherwise.
Pirates? I have the right to back up my media, or format-shift it, as long as I retain the original disc. I am not living in the US where the law is made for corporations rather than citizens' rights.
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I think piracy is another reason why streaming will take over. It's much easier to DRM.
If it can be decoded for playback, there will be a way to capture the decoded stream. DRM never works - it only harms legitimate customers, restricting what devices they can use to play back their media, or what they can do with it. (e.g. transfer it to a mobile device, stream the video around their home etc.)


But no, I won't be buying 4K discs if they are locked down and I can't use my media player of choice to bypass the menus and play the film directly, or back it up to my media server so that I don't need to have shelves full of discs on display, or stream it to multiple devices around the house.

 

When I buy a movie, after the first viewing (I make sure that it can play) I put it into a very large CD binder and throw out everything else.  The extra discs I give away or also put into the binder.  Alphabetizing the binder isn't a huge priority, and it's very easy to flip through to find the one I want.  If alphabetizing is a huge priority then just keep a list of movies and the page # they're on.

 

For me this is better than

  1. Having a massive shelf full of BD retail boxes.  This is a TON of space, and I'm sorry, but it looks @#$%ing ridiculous.  I know there are people that must display this kind of thing with a sense of pride, but frankly, they're mental.  And,
  2. Having 4 gig (for BD) of hard-drive space wasted for every single movie that I'll hardly ever see more than once***.  That space is plugged in and always on too.

 

I don't get the rationale.

 

***Note: this goes out the window for kids movies, where there are classics that they like to view endlessly.  I could maybe see that.


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post #8390 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 06:06 AM
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If Netflix only allows 4K streaming using the internal Netflix app on selected smart TV's, not on external devices, the signal never goes over HDMI. How will capture be done?
Capture the data going over your network and break the DRM? Capture the signal going between the processor board and the LVDS (or similar?) connector? Extract the keys from the hardware?

I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm saying that someone will figure it out, if it's the only way to get 4K content.

 

We're talking about within the display device?  Forget that pirate fantasy now.  It would likely have some sort of changing symmetric keys for just the handshaking that might change every 100 seconds.  It'd be very tough, and further, once broken it could instantly be changed worldwide.  Further it could include the sending of actual byte-code instructions for the host side to execute.  This requires that you not only watch the data, but that you implement your own virtual machine.  Depending upon what they're willing to do, there's "not easy" and then there's give up trying.  DRM isn't designed by idiots.


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post #8391 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 07:04 AM
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We're talking about within the display device?  Forget that pirate fantasy now.
Being against DRM is not the same thing as being for piracy. I have no interest in piracy.

What I want is to be able to back up my own discs, so they can be accessed anywhere in my home - streamed to any television, tablet, or notebook device. Transferred onto a mobile device so I can watch a film when I'm away on a trip.
Why should I be limited to watching the films I have purchased on Windows machines or stand-alone players, and not the Macs or iPads I own, or notebooks which don't have an optical drive?
I want playback via an HTPC so I have instant access to any of the films in my library rather than hunting around for the disc, keeping binders of discs or shelves full of discs on display, and seeking through 5-10 minutes of ads. ("trailers" are just ads for other movies)
I don't want to be locked down to a specific player, so that I can take advantage of advanced upscaling algorithms (more relevant to DVD than Blu-ray right now) or post-processing such as debanding which creates smooth gradation far in excess of the 8-bits stored on the disc, or audio processing to provide a better experience when listening using headphones.
I don't want someone else in control of media that I have legally purchased, being able to revoke access at some point down the line, or replace it with another version.

As far as 4K is concerned, why should I be restricted to buying a brand new 4K television that's locked into this 4K streaming service. If I want to stream 4K and downsample that to 1080p on my current display, I should be able to.
15mbps H.265 is going to look far better than whatever they're using for 1080p just now, whether you have a 4K display or not.

If a new 4K disc format is completely locked down so that all I can do is spend $400 on a new player and only be able to watch a film I've purchased on my main TV, having to keep discs at hand to be able to watch the films, then I simply won't buy it.
Just like I won't be buying a new television simply to use a new streaming service if that's the only way to get 4K native content.
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It would likely have some sort of changing symmetric keys for just the handshaking that might change every 100 seconds. It'd be very tough, and further, once broken it could instantly be changed worldwide. Further it could include the sending of actual byte-code instructions for the host side to execute. This requires that you not only watch the data, but that you implement your own virtual machine. Depending upon what they're willing to do, there's "not easy" and then there's give up trying. DRM isn't designed by idiots.
No, but if there's a demand for it, someone will figure out a way around it. My point was that the data has to be decrypted at some point.
Capturing the video signal that's being sent to the display panel would be one possible way of getting around it. (not an easy or realistic way, but an example)

In the end, DRM does nothing but restrict what legitimate customers can do. It's not going to have a major impact on piracy. Only one person needs to crack it and then the content is on the internet with the DRM removed.
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post #8392 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 07:20 AM
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We're talking about within the display device?  Forget that pirate fantasy now.
Being against DRM is not the same thing as being for piracy. I have no interest in piracy.

 

I don't read the above as defensive, but to be clear, I wasn't saying you were interested in piracy, nor was I implying that it was your dream.  However, breaking an in-display DRM would be a pirate fantasy.


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post #8393 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 07:47 AM
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OLED was the "ultimate" display technology promised many years ago but shows out to be hard to mass manufacture in large sizes.

Many other proof of concepts display technologies have been coming and going since the start of OLED use.

Now Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) has come with a new proof-of-concept Transparent on plastic display technology based on silver Nanoparticles, which I will guess is very similar to Quantum-Dots.

They don't tell much about how they trigger these, but lasers are mentioned.
They also never mentions the possibility to use this for full scale moving images.


MIT explains their technology;
Seeing things: A new transparent display system could provide heads-up data
.
The secret to the new system: Nanoparticles are embedded in the transparent material. These tiny particles can be tuned to scatter only certain wavelengths, or colors, or light, while letting all the rest pass right through. That means the glass remains transparent enough to see colors and shapes clearly through it, while a single-color display is clearly visible on the glass.

While the team’s demonstration used silver nanoparticles — each about 60 nanometers across — that produce a blue image, they say it should be possible to create full-color display images using the same technique. Three colors (red, green, and blue) are enough to produce what we perceive as full-color, and each of the three colors would still show only a very narrow spectral band, allowing all other hues to pass through freely.

"The glass will look almost perfectly transparent,” Soljačić says, “because most light is not of that precise wavelength” that the nanoparticles are designed to scatter.

Soljačić says that his group’s demonstration is just a proof-of-concept, and that much work remains to optimize the performance of the system. Silver nanoparticles, which are commercially available, were selected for the initial testing because it was “something we could do very simply and cheaply,” Soljačić says. The team’s promising results, even without any attempt to optimize the materials, “gives us encouragement that you could make this work better,” he says.

Such displays might be used, for example, to project images onto store windows while still allowing passersby to see clearly the merchandise on display inside, or to provide heads-up windshield displays for drivers or pilots, regardless of viewing angle.

The particles could be incorporated in a thin, inexpensive plastic coating applied to the glass, much as tinting is applied to car windows. This would work with commercially available laser projectors or conventional projectors that produce the specified color.

In the video they also say this film can be attached to any surface, but they never discuss the possibility to use this for full resolution images like TVs.
So to me, it can also be attached to a black surface and function as non-transparent display.

The big question is how do they trigger the silver Nanoparticles to create an moving image of picture quality?
Do they need to project the whole image in full size from the front, or can they just use laser embedded in the side of the film and trigger color pixels with various laser frequencies?

These questions might be stupid, and it is still a very simple proof-of-concept, but maybe this get the thread back on track and resue it from becoming a Blu-Ray thread with discussions that have been re-argued again and again for many years.
There is a separate Blu-Ray 4K thread at the projector forum where the blu-ray discussion can continue, or start a new separate thread in this section? rolleyes.gif

At least this new technology from MIT is interesting, and might trigger some people in R&D departments in some of the larger display companies to move this forward, even if it in the end up being nothing. cool.gif

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post #8394 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

When I buy a movie, after the first viewing (I make sure that it can play) I put it into a very large CD binder and throw out everything else.  The extra discs I give away or also put into the binder.  Alphabetizing the binder isn't a huge priority, and it's very easy to flip through to find the one I want.  If alphabetizing is a huge priority then just keep a list of movies and the page # they're on.

For me this is better than
  1. Having a massive shelf full of BD retail boxes.  This is a TON of space, and I'm sorry, but it looks @#$%ing ridiculous.  I know there are people that must display this kind of thing with a sense of pride, but frankly, they're mental.  And,
  2. Having 4 gig (for BD) of hard-drive space wasted for every single movie that I'll hardly ever see more than once***.  That space is plugged in and always on too.

I don't get the rationale.

***Note: this goes out the window for kids movies, where there are classics that they like to view endlessly.  I could maybe see that.

Be careful, just because you don't understand the rationale of someone's thinking doesn't make them mental it just makes them different from you. I happen to have a very organized wall of Blu-ray movies and it's very easy for me to visually go through them like I would in a video store to select what I wish to view. Your way seems nice as well, it definitely seems to have the advantage of taking up less space perhaps I'll try that some day.
PS: Try to keep an open mind my friend. 
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post #8395 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 09:04 AM
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The MIT demo looks like some took a projector to the plastic.

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post #8396 of 10552 Old 01-23-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadTech51 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

When I buy a movie, after the first viewing (I make sure that it can play) I put it into a very large CD binder and throw out everything else.  The extra discs I give away or also put into the binder.  Alphabetizing the binder isn't a huge priority, and it's very easy to flip through to find the one I want.  If alphabetizing is a huge priority then just keep a list of movies and the page # they're on.

For me this is better than
  1. Having a massive shelf full of BD retail boxes.  This is a TON of space, and I'm sorry, but it looks @#$%ing ridiculous.  I know there are people that must display this kind of thing with a sense of pride, but frankly, they're mental.  And,
  2. Having 4 gig (for BD) of hard-drive space wasted for every single movie that I'll hardly ever see more than once***.  That space is plugged in and always on too.

I don't get the rationale.

***Note: this goes out the window for kids movies, where there are classics that they like to view endlessly.  I could maybe see that.

Be careful, just because you don't understand the rationale of someone's thinking doesn't make them mental it just makes them different from you. I happen to have a very organized wall of Blu-ray movies and it's very easy for me to visually go through them like I would in a video store to select what I wish to view. Your way seems nice as well, it definitely seems to have the advantage of taking up less space perhaps I'll try that some day.
PS: Try to keep an open mind my friend. 

 

Point taken well and thumbed-up.  I shall.


WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
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post #8397 of 10552 Old 01-24-2014, 04:16 AM
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LG Display confirmed the planned ramp of their Gen 8 OLED fab in the 2nd half of this year during their earnings call yesterday. The evaporation capacity is in place though I am not sure if this is for 20k or 26k substrates a month. The conversion of a-si to IGZO will happen in the 2nd half but the pace at which they move to the full 26k substrates will depend on LCD demand. The ramp to 26k substrates a month will be completed in 2015.

I doubt LCD demand is going to be much of a barrier to conversion. The question will be whether they can fill the OLED capacity with positive gross margins.
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post #8398 of 10552 Old 01-24-2014, 03:28 PM
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LGE Discounting OLED TV Before Rolling Out New Products?

www.displaysearchblog.com
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post #8399 of 10552 Old 01-24-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

LG Display confirmed the planned ramp of their Gen 8 OLED fab in the 2nd half of this year during their earnings call yesterday. The evaporation capacity is in place though I am not sure if this is for 20k or 26k substrates a month. The conversion of a-si to IGZO will happen in the 2nd half but the pace at which they move to the full 26k substrates will depend on LCD demand. The ramp to 26k substrates a month will be completed in 2015.

I doubt LCD demand is going to be much of a barrier to conversion. The question will be whether they can fill the OLED capacity with positive gross margins.
\

I did some cool math here, but the forum ate it...

In short, it appears LG is planning on selling about 1 - 1.2 million OLEDs next year. Very roughly, that's 80-100% of the TV market in the $4000+ band. This will be interesting to follow.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8400 of 10552 Old 01-24-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

\

I did some cool math here, but the forum ate it...

In short, it appears LG is planning on selling about 1 - 1.2 million OLEDs next year. Very roughly, that's 80-100% of the TV market in the $4000+ band. This will be interesting to follow.

It's nice to see LG so optimistic anyway, did they mention any price projections yet or is it all still rumor?

It will also be interesting to see if LG takes a loss initially on OLED sales in order to get proper penetration in the market.

 

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