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post #8641 of 10697 Old 02-16-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

its an image from HDMI.org - What are the 4K formats supported by HDMI 2.0?
NOTE
. BOLD texts are new with HDMI 2.0
Oh, I see. It might have been useful to post that.

It would also have been a lot more useful if the HDMI site had posted which formats are required for HDMI 2.0 certification.
With Sony doing 60Hz at 4:2:0 for example, clearly RGB/4:4:4 are not required. (and they're the only ones which matter)
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So the TX-L65WT600 is not able to play Hollywood 4K stuff (no HDCP 2.2 support). And because it has no HVEC decoder it is not able to do 4K streaming. Basically the TX-L65WT600 has very limited 4K abilities dispite its full HDMI 2.0 support. To me such a TV is not a UHD TV.
Well that assumes HDCP 2.2 will be required. HTPC software bypasses the HDCP requirements for current Blu-rays, as do many cheap HDMI switches.
I'm sure that there will be external streaming solutions in the not-too-distant future - if you even care about streaming. I don't.
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post #8642 of 10697 Old 02-16-2014, 02:55 PM
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So which new displays(at CES or otherwise) have a 2.0 that allows for the new HVEC 2.65 codec?

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post #8643 of 10697 Old 02-16-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Printable OLED will mostly benefit OLED, but will lag behind LCD in brightness within a year or two.
In addition to brightness, LCD's improved improved color rendition based on second generation Quantum Dot/LED backplanes with local dimming will be close to OLED color reproduction.

The biggest "revolution" in electronics manufacturing which will also largely benefit displays manufacturing and lower cost will be Printable Electronics (including IGZO on plastic), which will benefit LCD and OLED equally.

As soon as one of the big players invest some money in large scale roll-to roll manufacturing of Printable Electronics we will see displays that are made of just a bunch of plastic sheets. All the solution for printing advanced electronics circuits are in place, including components like Transistors, LED(non-phosphor coated), re-writable memory, sensors, batteries and other useful components.

Roll-to-roll Printable Electronics can today be printed at a speed of several meters a second. Imagine what impact this will have on manufacturing of electronics.

So this is fascinating stuff and I tend to agree it's exciting. The thing about printable OLED that's true, though, is fundamentally, OLED is a "simpler" display to build than LCD. The reason why it doesn't seem that way now is that yields are still awful for the OLED deposition and the cycle times are still slow-ish. Fix those things, and OLED should get fundamentally cheaper. And assuming this comes with even slightly better power consumption, and you find few applications where LCD is superior.
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How much are those increased brightness LCD's going to cost? or the 4K LCD's covering the rec 2020 color space? or local dimming? LCD's have managed to create a number of innovative ways to make up for their shortcomings but they all involve adding another layer of cost. I believe that vapour deposition based OLED's can compete on price in the high-end. If you switch to printable, you are going to bring prices down in the mainstream television market.

Well, I think it goes perhaps farther. The likelihood is that if printing ends up working out, it will make the screens for smartphones and tablets clearly cheaper than LCDs, which should rapidly diffuse OLED down to cheaper and cheaper devices. If LCD loses those segments, it begins to lose most of the important part of the market.
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Lifetime will still be an issue so laptop LCD's would remain, but I dont think that it is an exaggeration to say that we could start projecting the end of LCD. As rogo said, it will take a while, but that's no different than the transition to any new display technology. CRT's stuck around for years after it had become clear that they were a dead technology.

Yep, it would still probably take a decade, but it would be clearer that it was happen. Again, we're saying, "If printables become commonplace." And the reason then becomes economic.
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Plasma was cheaper than LCd, had better PQ + burn-in, just like OLED...I do not see OLED taking over the Display market. Seems to me that
a no to Plasma is a no to OLED
.

I think Slacker points out that laptops would likely remain LCD. But in things with 2-4 lifespans like smartphones, longevity concerns don't seem very important. Maybe tablets bifurcate into "laptop-like" units and "others" and only the former becomes OLED-centric. Or maybe OLED lifespan improves by small-ish amounts which are more than enough.
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So why has Sony dropped all reference to QD in their 2014 televisions? HDGuru reports that it isnt in their lineup. I would have expected that QD would have spread into more of their high-end lineup this year.

While I have my doubts on whether QD will compete with printable OLED's, I am surprised at the lack of progress in 2014.

Sony probably did this for money reasons. That's bad for improving economies of scale on QD films. Still, the stuff is in the el cheapo Amazon tablet.....
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I have seen two hdguru mistakes in 2013.....l

So, I couldn't get anyone at Sony to tell me the QD film was there, suggesting it probably isn't.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8644 of 10697 Old 02-16-2014, 09:43 PM
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Rogo: Is there hope for an OLED world--one where at least 20% of consumers get a great picture from it at an affordable price?

I don't care if the other 80% of the morons EVER get it--let them watch LCD monstrosities! They DESERVE video Hades!
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post #8645 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It would also have been a lot more useful if the HDMI site had posted which formats are required for HDMI 2.0 certification.
With Sony doing 60Hz at 4:2:0 for example, clearly RGB/4:4:4 are not required. (and they're the only ones which matter).

Once again this illustrates well the 4K chaos. RGB/4:4:4@60Hz input in TV is theoretically absolute must for computer/gaming, and low delay for that matter. But at present this is pure theory as there is no computer device having HDMI 2.0 output. Still theoretically, such devices could be made, e.g. graphics adapter cards. This however gets on the level of turf wars between the computer and TV industry. Computer industry hates to be on the mercy of HDMI and thus provides HDMI only in a bundle with its own DisplayPort. For the equivalence with full specs of HDMI 2.0 they need new DisplayPort 1.3 specs which should be finalized only later this year. Then there is hope that sometime in 2015 there will be DisplayPort 1.3 and HDMI 2.0 support in computers.Then, provided somebody buys very heavy iron for 4K@60Hz gaming, the RGB/4:4:4@60Hz input on a TV will become an absolute must.

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post #8646 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 06:22 AM
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Not much new here, but a couple quotes I thought might be of interest.

A Tech Too Soon - Samsung Electronics Taking a Pause in OLED TV Business

Source: BusinessKorea

G Electronics has recently lowered the prices of its OLED TVs by a large margin. Under the circumstances, much attention is being paid to Samsung Electronics’ next-generation TV business strategy.

At present, LG Electronics is continuing its R&D and investment in OLED TV for price cut, but Samsung Electronics is focusing on ultra high-definition (UHD) TV rather than OLED TV. Still, the UHD TV market is a tough battle as well because the mid-end segment of the market has already been dominated by Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturers.

Samsung Electronics brought UHD TVs to the fore at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) 2014 in Las Vegas. “There is no doubt that OLED is a very nice technology, but we think that technological perfection should come before its commercialization,” said a high-ranking executive of the company, adding, “It seems that three to five more years will be taken until the market will be in full bloom.” Samsung Electronics is planning to release a full line-up of UHD TVs this year and concentrate on them for a while as its next-generation TV products.

Experts say that this is associated with the product yield and some technological challenges. The average price of its OLED TVs is approximately 100 million won (US$94,300), which is quite burdensome for many customers. The unit cost of production has to be cut in order to address this matter, but there are not a few technological problems. This is why Samsung has not been able to make a decision for investment in the manufacturing of large screen OLED TVs. Samsung Display President Park Dong-geon has announced that he will finalize its plan for investment in the A3 plant located in Asan City, South Chungcheong Province, before the end of the first half, but the plant is dedicated to small and mid-sized OLED panels.

“Samsung Electronics has no confidence in investment in large-screen OLED panels,” said an industry insider. However, LG Electronics is showing an aggressive stance these days, marking down the price of its 55-inch OLED TV to 6.2 million won (US$5,847).

Samsung is unlikely to distinguish itself in the UHD TV market, at least for the time being. The global demand for UHD TVs reached three million units last year, and the Chinese market accounted for more than 80% of it.

LG Electronics and Samsung Electronics focused on the high-end market last year, releasing mainly 55-inch or larger products. In the meantime, Taiwanese and Chinese companies such as Innolux found their way into the mass-market segment to increase their presence to the point of threatening both of the Korean manufacturers.
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post #8647 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 09:45 AM
 
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LG going it alone...lesse if they release all those new models as intimated at CES this year.
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post #8648 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Rogo: Is there hope for an OLED world--one where at least 20% of consumers get a great picture from it at an affordable price?

I don't care if the other 80% of the morons EVER get it--let them watch LCD monstrosities! They DESERVE video Hades!

Try keep an open mind, there are good LCD displays out there specifically the ones with full-array's and local-dimming. OLED does exhibit many of the issues that plague Plasmas and the better technology doesn't always win out so consider that. Company's will continue to improve LCD picture quality it's not going anywhere anytime soon from the look of things. cool.gif

PS: Currently I'm holding out for my next display to be an OLED preferably 100+ in size 4k is a must but the way things are looking it's way more likely I'll see an 100+ or larger 4k LED with a full-array and local-dimming and with very comparable picture quality much sooner then I'll ever see an OLED version. Price is also huge factor to consider as we'll, i'm all for the best picture quality possible but pice always factors in.

 

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post #8649 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 01:59 PM
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Try keep an open mind, there are good LCD displays out there specifically the ones with full-array's and local-dimming. OLED does exhibit many of the issues that plague Plasmas and the better technology doesn't always win out so consider that. Company's will continue to improve LCD picture quality it's not going anywhere anytime soon from the look of things. cool.gif
Trouble is, as nice as some LCDs can be when viewed 'head-on', LCDs will always have that lousy off-axis viewing/deterioration to contend with which is a deal breaker for many...

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post #8650 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 02:16 PM
 
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The Elite was bad on that front...the Vizio master series is purportedly much better (from a prototype perspective anyway). The question is will it see release this year?
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post #8651 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 03:36 PM
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The Elite was bad on that front...the Vizio master series is purportedly much better (from a prototype perspective anyway). The question is will it see release this year?

I'm assuming you're referring to the cost?

As for the rumored new Visio, your referencing who knows? It would be nice to see such a display although there's not much (concrete) information to go on as of yet just hype / talk. The Vizio (R> series reference display looks good but it's sure to be pricy. cool.gif

 

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post #8652 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Once again this illustrates well the 4K chaos. RGB/4:4:4@60Hz input in TV is theoretically absolute must for computer/gaming, and low delay for that matter. But at present this is pure theory as there is no computer device having HDMI 2.0 output. Still theoretically, such devices could be made, e.g. graphics adapter cards. This however gets on the level of turf wars between the computer and TV industry. Computer industry hates to be on the mercy of HDMI and thus provides HDMI only in a bundle with its own DisplayPort. For the equivalence with full specs of HDMI 2.0 they need new DisplayPort 1.3 specs which should be finalized only later this year. Then there is hope that sometime in 2015 there will be DisplayPort 1.3 and HDMI 2.0 support in computers.Then, provided somebody buys very heavy iron for 4K@60Hz gaming, the RGB/4:4:4@60Hz input on a TV will become an absolute must.
There's nothing theoretical about it. Anything less than 4:4:4/RGB is unsuitable for PC/gaming use. Panasonic seems to manage 4K at 60Hz just fine via DisplayPort 1.2 on its displays.
The problem is that all the other television manufacturers seem to have stuck with HDMI, despite it being an inferior interface. I don't expect HDMI ports to be replaced with DisplayPort, but at least including one would be nice.
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The Elite was bad on that front...the Vizio master series is purportedly much better (from a prototype perspective anyway). The question is will it see release this year?
If you are using local dimming, viewing angles are going to be terrible. There's no way around it, unless you can build an LCD panel that doesn't lose any contrast as the viewing angle changes.
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post #8653 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 05:49 PM
 
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^The aforementioned prototype suggests improvement over the last 3 years.
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I'm assuming you're referring to the cost?

As for the rumored new Visio, your referencing who knows? It would be nice to see such a display although there's not much (concrete) information to go on as of yet just hype / talk. The Vizio (R> series reference display looks good but it's sure to be pricy. cool.gif
Viewing angles. Those who saw the prototype at CES felt the Vizio was much improved, and there were Sharp Elites on hand to compare. Hopefully, the Vizio will be no more than $4500 (Sony has an SRP'ing their equivalently sized FALD unit at $8000). Still too pricy, but you can be sure it will affect Sony at the high end if the set lives up to the hype.
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post #8654 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Not much new here, but a couple quotes I thought might be of interest.

....

So, again, to be clear, Samsung has no technology to manufacture OLED TVs. They simply don't. They have a hacked method that has allowed them to build a few hundred (maybe) prototype TVs and even put them on sale. But the idea this is scalable has always been laughable to people (like myself) who understand how incredibly hacky the method is.

Without either (a) licensing what LG is doing (b) developing a method to print OLED TVs (c) developing an entirely different method to use a mask than anything they use for mobile phone/tablet-sized displays, Samsung cannot mass produce large TVs. And this is the best display manufacturer in the world.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8655 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 08:30 PM
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You may have noticed the Samsung OLED is getting harder and harder to find for sale now in the US. At the time I'm writing this you no longer can order from Amazon and many other on-line retailers indicate it's out of stock. It's possible they have stopped manufacturing them altogether (but I really don't know that).
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post #8656 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 08:47 PM
 
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....who can take it?!
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With all the doom and gloom around here I sure hope my new F8500 lasts forever...

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post #8658 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

You may have noticed the Samsung OLED is getting harder and harder to find for sale now in the US. At the time I'm writing this you no longer can order from Amazon and many other on-line retailers indicate it's out of stock. It's possible they have stopped manufacturing them altogether (but I really don't know that).

It would not shock me to learn they have stopped manufacturing them altogether.

That said, like you, I have no intelligence whatsoever to indicate that.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #8659 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

There's nothing theoretical about it. Anything less than 4:4:4/RGB is unsuitable for PC/gaming use. Panasonic seems to manage 4K at 60Hz just fine via DisplayPort 1.2 on its displays.
The problem is that all the other television manufacturers seem to have stuck with HDMI, despite it being an inferior interface. I don't expect HDMI ports to be replaced with DisplayPort, but at least including one would be nice.

Panasonic is indeed but one manuf which adds DP1.2 to their UHD TVs. But DP 1.2 is not a clean, sastisfactory solution to the 4K@60Hz driving. DP 1.2 can drive 4K@60 Hz only via a feature called MST (Multi Stream Transport) which was originally devised to use with multiple monitors. For the MST the 4K display is logically divided into two vertical half-displays which are driven with different streams. This obviously may lead to all kind of problems like tearing pictures. Graphic cards manufs are perfecting their drivers for the MST but the first question here is if Panasonic TVs support MST or they can only run DP 1.2 in the 4K@30Hz mode? In any case, clean solution requires DP 1.3.

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post #8660 of 10697 Old 02-17-2014, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Panasonic is indeed but one manuf which adds DP1.2 to their UHD TVs. But DP 1.2 is not a clean, sastisfactory solution to the 4K@60Hz driving. DP 1.2 can drive 4K@60 Hz only via a feature called MST (Multi Stream Transport) which was originally devised to use with multiple monitors. For the MST the 4K display is logically divided into two vertical half-displays which are driven with different streams. This obviously may lead to all kind of problems like tearing pictures. Graphic cards manufs are perfecting their drivers for the MST but the first question here is if Panasonic TVs support MST or they can only run DP 1.2 in the 4K@30Hz mode? In any case, clean solution requires DP 1.3.
This hasn't been a problem for a long time now. It was only an issue when the first 4K displays launched, prior to proper driver support for MST.
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So we don't really have Samsung OLED--we don't really have support for 4:4:4--what we basically have is LCD that sucks with the Chinese taking over and dominating.

The outlook is so bleak that the geniuses around here can only talk about little phone screens and argue about FANTASY OLED production possibilities.

Yes--Who can take it?!

Is LG the last hope in a LCD that sucks world?
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post #8662 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 03:11 AM
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I feel your pain.Im so ready to say goodby to my 5 year old Samsung 8500 LED.Even full lit and calibrated by D-Nice it still at times has those flashlight effects in a black screen when an object begins to appear.By now i felt Oled would at least show up somewhere we could see it but in Ma. its still a no show at Best Buy.When Tweeter etc. went out of business so did the fun of this video obsession.

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post #8663 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 07:29 AM
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So many bad news about OLED.
It makes me think that it will be just another vaporware in display technology.
Come on LG!, you are my last hope!
I guess I have to hold on to my 50" Kuro......sigh....

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post #8664 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 07:40 AM
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Because of LG I think there's still a lot of optimism. They say they will be coming out with a flat screen in april, they are updating they current curved models, they say they will be adding larger screen systems, they are selling panels to a couple Chinese companies who should be releasing TVs by the end of the year. I think there is still a lot of positive momentum from LG.
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post #8665 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 08:36 AM
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Maybe I'm to much of an optimist, but I'm hoping to buy the LG 65EC9800 OLED in late 2015 at $4000-$5000. The 55" OLED have dropped from $15000 to $6000-$6500 and it hasn't been a year since its release yet. With LGs new OLEDs scheduled to be released in the summer this might be possible ?
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post #8666 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris5028 View Post

With all the doom and gloom around here I sure hope my new F8500 lasts forever...
Agreed - and I'm just hoping my 65" Panny ST30 plasma will keep on going for a long time yet then too!

The Insane Pink Care Bear's Home Theater Set Up:

Marantz AV 8801 Processor, Emotiva XPR-5 Amplifier, Panasonic 65" ST30 Plasma, Yamaha BD-S2900 Blu-ray, Yamaha CDC-697 CD Player, Yamaha TT-500U Turntable, w/Signet TK5e, JBL ES100 Fronts, JBL LC2 Center, JBL ES30 Surrounds & 2 JBL ES250P Subwoofers
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post #8667 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 11:00 AM
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I doubt we will see much in the way of OLED until 2016 at the earliest. I just hope my 141 lasts that long. Knock on wood.
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post #8668 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 11:14 AM
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I think things will be just fine in a couple of years. We will probably all dig this thread up and get a good laugh. I am sure there will be large high end displays for all and I hope it's OLED leading the way.

It is kind of bizarre how all of this played out and so many manufactures are being pushed out. I just am not a Samsung fan for personal reasons and LG? I never in a million years thought I would have that brand in my house. My stable has been Sony and last purchase Sharpe.

Sales may have tanked to a degree but a new technology isn't going to change that for the most part no matter it be OLED or 4k. Most people including me, or at least my friends I should say are set for now.

I am far from rich, dang I wish but I do get a decent bonus every year. It seems every other year I was paying cash for a higher end display. Heck that had to end. I am sure it's the same for many others.

Can't quite remember the years but:

1st purchase Sony 34XBR960 HD CRT with stand I think $2500
Two years later: Pioneer 5071 50 inch Plasma and new stand. $3300 I believe?
Two years later: Sony 55 XBR8 $4100 I believe?
Two years later: Sharpe Elite 70 $6100 I believe ?

Who can sustain this insanity? It takes folks a lot richer than I. The great thing about it all and I love reading the negativity about the Sharpe but it is that good. Period. Yeah, off-angle fades a bit and yeah calibrators state that there is an issue with cyan but this set is so good it got me off the roller coaster madness. I hit 70 inches which for me and my smaller rooms is perfect but I could see an 80 but that would be it. 70 has finally totally satisfied me. The picture quality going from the XBR8 to the Elite was mind blowing. Just an incredible awesome picture in HD.

What's next? Nothing for now? I will never go backwards in size. HDMI 2.0 not ready. No 4k content. No OLED that matched this criteria and no LCD that matches my Elite. Up converting UHD? Reminds me of the DVD days prior to Blu-Ray. What a joke.

Yup it seems we are in a lull. That won't last. We have all been here long enough to know that. We are just in a bizarre place now. Perhaps like in the final years of CRT with 42 inch crappy plasma's selling for $12k. I am sure OLED will eventually take off. And look that dropped price on the LG is a lot of money still I know but I compare it to the XBR8 I bought. A lot of money but not bad for a new tech and it's in reach for many but 55 is just too small.

If I needed a set I would have bought one of the last Panasonic plasma. Take a break and let it play out and maybe go work on your audio for a while if you still have the bug.

Not too worried about gloom and doom in the display world. We are just in transition. If you are sitting on a five year old display it may be a tough call. I get it but there were excellent display choices available from both camps over the years to hold us over.

Rick
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post #8669 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

It is kind of bizarre how all of this played out and so many manufactures are being pushed out. I just am not a Samsung fan for personal reasons and LG? I never in a million years thought I would have that brand in my house.

IMO LG makes a very fine front-loading clothes washer. I am also interested in seeing the LG 65EC9700.
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post #8670 of 10697 Old 02-18-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

IMO LG makes a very fine front-loading clothes washer. I am also interested in seeing the LG 65EC9700.

Irrational dislike of the Korean brands dates back to much earlier eras when their quality was low.

Some people's parents and grandparents won't buy Toyotas for the same illogical reasons even though Toyota builds the world's best cars.

Someday, the same will be said about Chinese brands, I'm sure.

(My fridge is Kenmore, but made by LG, incidentally.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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