OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 334 - AVS Forum
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post #9991 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 10:02 AM
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the slimness of the OLED is incredible and is very flattering to the curve. My first preference was flat, but the looks of it is part of the reason that I have 100% WAF for a more expensive set wink.gif
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post #9992 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

the slimness of the OLED is incredible and is very flattering to the curve. My first preference was flat, but the looks of it is part of the reason that I have 100% WAF for a more expensive set wink.gif

My point exactly. I'll actually be moving in with my girlfriend sometime this year and I knew I needed to upgrade my tv before that happened as once it does I know she'd never understand such a purchase. But it's so darn svelte wink.gif

.......FWAF.
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post #9993 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 12:20 PM
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Okay, I see your point on that one. For once.

PS: never mind you just added that PS and I lost you again. Lol

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post #9994 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I hope both that issue and the grayscale uniformity is fixed. That dying subpixel occurrence that afflicted Plague was an outlier as far as I can tell (and in my experience with two panels so far).

OK, well if that's true then it's a good thing... I would not tolerate even 1 dead subpixel at this point, let alone several.
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

That would be nice, wouldn't it - resolve both the IR concerns and grey-scale uniformity for 'just-above-black' scenes with some basic improvements and stabilization of the IGZO backplane - if the gen-2 4K WOLEDs demonstrate those improvements, I almost certainly in biggrin.gif

My gut (and slacker's, I believe) is that there is a relationship between this and the backplane. It should be a solvable problem if that's true. If it turns out it's related to something in LG's OLED design (let's just say that's possible), it will be a thornier one to fix.
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

We need a distinction between what that list would be for a videophiles and imaging scientists (like nearly all of us) vs. the general public.  However, if an averaging of the two groups are needed, here's how I would redo that list:
  1. Image Retention
  2. Dead/Flakey/etc. pixels
  3. Motion
  4. (a distant dead last) Low level gray uniformity

So I see nothing on this list that's problematic unless pixels really were failing (which seems unlikely at this point per the above) -- other than image retention. If these TVs require coddling or come with in-store warnings about not playing games for too long or watching widescreen movies, they are basically DOA. No, really, DOA.
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Something I used to worry the most about, but no longer worry much about (for either stacked or RGB-emitter approaches):
  • blue aging

I see this, however, as a potential deal breaker. If the longevity of these products is not a clear 8-10 years -- like an LCD TV offers, unless it literally fails -- again they will basically be DOA. Interestingly, however, this is a "we won't know for a while" caveat. A reasonable home use scenario is 2000 hours per year. Some homes push 3500, though few of those are likely to own OLEDs right now. Somewhere, I presume competitors own a few of these and are torture testing them. Perhaps by 2015-16, we'll hear about longevity.

Consumers, incidentally, won't care that it's "blue" again. They'll just care about lost brightness, screwed up color, etc.
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Add to all of this though are two pronounced and weird wildcards
  • Curved.  Good or bad, and for real or imagined reasons, I just can't see the public accepting this concept in volume.  And do we yet know enough to even speculate if curving the display is causing some of the trouble the LG folks have been having?
  • 4K: can it be done at acceptable light levels, etc., etc.
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I don't see it. You really think people are going to buy much more expensive OLED TVs because their curved? Even if someone was just enamored by the curve, there are much cheaper curved LCDs.

I grouped these last two. The curve is marketing drivel. There is no early evidence at all it's bringing consumers into showrooms, let alone causing them to buy. There isn't even really evidence 4K is causing buying, though there is clear evidence that "if buying --> certainly placing some value on 4K." That puts 4K in a category curved TV is not in.

Katzmaier at Cnet is halfway through a test that appears headed for "curved TVs are tolerable, but why anyone would spend even a small premium on them is beyond me, let alone a large premium." I suspect most consumers will be in a similar position. A portion of the bell curve -- most of us here and likely some people out in the world who simply possess good taste -- will say, "I'm never buying a curved TV, period; what a dumb idea." A tinier portion of the bell curve will likely embrace the curve and its futuristic nature. That it will be a footnote in CE and never made again after the end of the decade won't bother the people buying it now. They're the people who bought cars designed to mimic rockets and other "space age" innovations before....

With respect to 4K, there simply is no evidence that there's a light-level concern. The high-resolution Galaxy S5 is plenty competitive on brightness, both overall and per watt. Granted, LG is using a totally different method and perhaps results will differ. It seems doubtful, however, given that ultimately IGZO should perform quite well on large substrates and whatever magic they are doing with the white appears to be working. I remain concerned about LG's huge inter-pixel vertical spacing and would like to see that reduced. But I'm not of the mind to believe that's a dealbreaker.
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post #9995 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 12:50 PM
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Every one of us still has dead sub pixels. He just meant how on my first panel they continuously kept dying. We both lost a few in the first 50 hours then it stopped, but on my first it just kept on going relentlessly. That specific anomaly seems to have been just with that panel.
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post #9996 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 12:54 PM
 
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^Correct.
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

OK, well if that's true then it's a good thing... I would not tolerate even 1 dead subpixel at this point, let alone several.
It's a good thing you're sitting on the sidelines then. wink.gif
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post #9997 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

A reasonable home use scenario is 2000 hours per year. Some homes push 3500, though few of those are likely to own OLEDs right now.
They'll get way more than those number of hours if you have to run wiping patterns overnight to reverse the IR that watching a few hours of letterboxed content. tongue.gif
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post #9998 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

A tinier portion of the bell curve will likely embrace the curve and its futuristic nature. That it will be a footnote in CE and never made again after the end of the decade won't bother the people buying it now. They're the people who bought cars designed to mimic rockets and other "space age" innovations before....

 

Funny....I've often had the simile in my head that these TVs were like the Raymond Loewy stuff....LOL....
 

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With respect to 4K, there simply is no evidence that there's a light-level concern. The high-resolution Galaxy S5 is plenty competitive on brightness, both overall and per watt. Granted, LG is using a totally different method and perhaps results will differ. It seems doubtful, however, given that ultimately IGZO should perform quite well on large substrates and whatever magic they are doing with the white appears to be working. I remain concerned about LG's huge inter-pixel vertical spacing and would like to see that reduced. But I'm not of the mind to believe that's a dealbreaker.

 

I was mostly referring to precisely that: That inter-row mask that seems excessive, though I'm sure is there for critical reasons.  This hasn't solidified into a "problem" quite yet in my mind, but more of a warning flag of something to verify later.


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post #9999 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 02:09 PM
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If I want anything for the future its an end to the incessant panel lottery that goes on in this industry. Excluding Samsung whose been known to actually put different panels in the same exact model (which should just be illegal), every tv's got its own unique lottery and with the OLED it's worse than ever. The amount of bizzarities (again, not a word. Deal with it wink.gif ) happening here should be a deal breaker for anyone who just wants to go home and enjoy their tv without worrying that there's a good chance they'll have to replace it until they get a good one. How in the hell does this go on without qc putting a stop to it? If it were like this with cars it'd be the end of the company.
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post #10000 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

If I want anything for the future its an end to the incessant panel lottery that goes on in this industry. Excluding Samsung whose been known to actually put different panels in the same exact model (which should just be illegal), every tv's got its own unique lottery and with the OLED it's worse than ever. The amount of bizzarities (again, not a word. Deal with it wink.gif ) happening here should be a deal breaker for anyone who just wants to go home and enjoy their tv without worrying that there's a good chance they'll have to replace it until they get a good one. How in the hell does this go on without qc putting a stop to it? If it were like this with cars it'd be the end of the company.
They're hoping they don't get too many customers like you, vinnie and coopson. LG is hoping they get customers who don't care the slightest about the image quality and will just admire the sleek design and love whatever crap they put in the box. LG needs to recoup some money on their OLED investment and selling their marginal, not quite ready for primetime, product is one way to do that. They literally can't afford to wait until it is near perfect to start selling it.
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post #10001 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 02:56 PM
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^and which tv manufacturer doesn't do that? I'd argue that LCD after all these years is only now approaching 'ready for primetime'.
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post #10002 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 03:05 PM
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I dunno. Put me in a tu-tu and call me Lucy, but to my eyes CCFL was way more uniform than LED. Sure, they can make LCD's better than ever now if they wanted but well, they don't.
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post #10003 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 04:24 PM
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^and which tv manufacturer doesn't do that? I'd argue that LCD after all these years is only now approaching 'ready for primetime'.
I have a 52" CCFL backlit Samsung from several years ago and it's quite uniform on both black screen and grey screen. Way better than most of the edgelit stuff I see getting posted. It was the first one I got too. Then again, it was $2k not $750.

That said, this stuff is generally a race to the bottom. In general, consumers in North America won't pay for quality. The manufacturers have found the point that maximizes profit (or minimizes losses). The sets don't have to be AVSforum videophile "perfect", they only have to be good enough so the vast majority of consumers won't return them. It's just like cable / satellite TV. Is your cable / satellite company obsessed with delivering you highest quality audio and video, or are they only trying to deliver something that's just good enough so most people won't cancel?
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post #10004 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 05:07 PM
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Completely agree. It's the reason vizios not only exist, but sell high volumes even.
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post #10005 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

I dunno. Put me in a tu-tu and call me Lucy, but to my eyes CCFL was way more uniform than LED. Sure, they can make LCD's better than ever now if they wanted but well, they don't.


They can't. Those better than ever big LCD TVs would have to be ,basically, hand-made (like some medical grade monitors are) and would cost like BMW + Mercedes and nobody would ever buy them and they would be really thick. And my first Samsung S5 had dirty screen effect, visible uniformity issues so I returned it, but the second one I got was no better though. Now I think that there's on point in playing the panel lottery any more for odds are always against you especially with OLEDs 

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post #10006 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Correct.
It's a good thing you're sitting on the sidelines then. wink.gif

The size is way too small for me anyway.
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They'll get way more than those number of hours if you have to run wiping patterns overnight to reverse the IR that watching a few hours of letterboxed content. tongue.gif

I know you were joking, but normals never run those patterns anyway. It's odd they even offer such a feature.
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I was mostly referring to precisely that: That inter-row mask that seems excessive, though I'm sure is there for critical reasons.  This hasn't solidified into a "problem" quite yet in my mind, but more of a warning flag of something to verify later.

We need to file this under "time will tell".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10007 of 10443 Old 05-28-2014, 11:27 PM
 
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LG doesn't offer said feature, lol. We've been using external sources like solid colors and the pixel jogger to mitigate the nasties.
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By the way here's the 42 1080p LCD that has near perfect uniformity http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-videoproduction/product-LMD4251TDPAC2/ and it only costs some meager 10 grand:eek: 

 

Here's another one for measly 8.6 grand http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-monitors/cat-videoproduction/product-LMD4251TD/ . By the way these are CCFL not LED displays. I don't think they even make pro displays that use LED backlights (and guess why?)...

 

Please, stop saying all LCDs are bad for it's only all consumer LCDs are bad. They've been this way since the dawn of LCD and they are bound to stay that way 'till the end of time would be my guess what with the perilous and looming LCD apocalypse Artwood has been unrelievingly prophesizing    

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post #10009 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 12:24 AM
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However on a more down-to-earth note I want to add that when I pointed out to a "normie" that her notebook's display had too much screen bleeding she said something that put me in a shock: "who cares, man" :eek: 

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^So does mine (Toshiba). Prime example of desensitization. However, I don't watch movies on my display or do any serious graphical work, so I can't help but find agreement with her assessment. wink.gif
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post #10011 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Quote:
Quote:
I was mostly referring to precisely that: That inter-row mask that seems excessive, though I'm sure is there for critical reasons.  This hasn't solidified into a "problem" quite yet in my mind, but more of a warning flag of something to verify later.

I used to think that LG vertical spacing/screen-door was excessive too. Bu then you look at something like the Samsung F8500 plasma (which is the brightest plasma ever produced):



Also, if you look a the entire history of LG IPS LCD panels, you see a similar pattern:

http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-television/screen-technology-sub-pixels-up-close-a1547.html

This it not a new phenomenon or unique to the LG OLED. Makes me doubtful if they will even attempt to solve it unless they become desperate for brightness (unlike their LCD products).
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They can't. Those better than ever big LCD TVs would have to be ,basically, hand-made (like some medical grade monitors are) and would cost like BMW + Mercedes and nobody would ever buy them and they would be really thick. And my first Samsung S5 had dirty screen effect, visible uniformity issues so I returned it, but the second one I got was no better though. Now I think that there's on point in playing the panel lottery any more for odds are always against you especially with OLEDs 

Or they could just make really good FALDs like the hx 950 and Sharp Elite only instead of continuously removing zones and moving to edge lighting they could add more and more each year. You know, to try and do the unthinkable and top themselves. No, not in this industry.

Stas that's funny. Oh, the normies. Haha. Wish I could be one.
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Wall Street Journal interview with LG's head of OLED business Jin Huh. Must login to read, so Google min jeong lee LG bendable..


- plans to sell three new TV models in the second half of 2014.

- Flexible OLED TVs planned for next year.

- LG sold 3000 OLED TVs last year.

- The new OLED sets that LG plans for this year will be 4K 65'' and 77'' curved screen and a 1080p 55''.

- LG continues to release OLED television sets dispite the technical and cost difficulties because it hopes to gain expertise and be ahead of rivals by the time the technology takes off.

- Mr Huh declined to comment on wether LG is making money on its OLED television sets, saying only that profitability is a factor in decisions. He also said the company would use profit generated by its overall television business to help support next-generation sets.
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Also, if you look a the entire history of LG IPS LCD panels, you see a similar pattern:

http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-television/screen-technology-sub-pixels-up-close-a1547.html

This it not a new phenomenon or unique to the LG OLED. Makes me doubtful if they will even attempt to solve it unless they become desperate for brightness (unlike their LCD products).

 

Hey, those guys are to be commended.  We've been using that page for years (as have other sites), and as evidenced by their mini PSA below, they're willing to identify their mistakes boldly.  This could be the reason that everyone was so convinced that IPS meant chevron shaped pixels, and chevron shaped pixels meant IPS for so long.

 

Quote:

We Were Wrong!

b12ee343f5a5ef7ed80cb8dc77a92edfedf5ac38.png Our investigations into the shape of sub-pixels in various types of screen technology showed that for years we've been incorrectly identifying the screens used in certain products. In fact, there are more types of panel than we had initially thought, with technology such as PSA and UV²A that we were unaware of. This investigation has helped clear things up!

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post #10015 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 06:00 AM
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Kateeva Grows Infrastructure to Support Sales (press release)

Appoints SVP of Customer Satisfaction; Expands Manufacturing Space in Silicon Valley


MENLO PARK, Calif., May 28, 2014—To support sales of its inkjet printing manufacturing solution for OLED applications, Kateeva, Inc. today announced two key moves. First, the company named expert sales executive, Larry Timm, as Senior Vice President of Customer Satisfaction. Timm’s strength is selling complex capital equipment and related process technologies to marquee electronics manufacturing customers in Asia and Europe. At Kateeva he’ll drive business in Asia, manage customer relationships, and create a world-class infrastructure to support key accounts.

Second, Kateeva announced the planned expansion of its Silicon Valley facilities to create dedicated manufacturing space. The first YIELDjet™ tools for mass production will be built at this location. YIELDjet is the world’s first inkjet printer designed from the ground up to mass produce flexible and large-size OLED panels. With unique precision deposition capabilities, YIELDjet makes production of such ultra-light, paper-thin OLED displays economically viable – for the first time.

Kateeva President Dr. Conor Madigan called the decision to build the first tools in Silicon Valley a practical move. “Here, we can access top-class engineers and proven suppliers, while also establishing copy-exact protocols for future manufacturing in other locations,” he said. “Moving into production is a big milestone for Kateeva. And it’s the right point to add a global customer satisfaction executive to the team. We’re pleased to welcome Larry.”

Timm said, “Kateeva has pioneered a product that’s energizing the OLED manufacturing community. It’s a rare opportunity to join a start-up with such a compelling offering. I’m excited to build the support infrastructure and help customers leverage the value of YIELDjet.”

Today’s developments aim to position YIELDjet for smooth near-term deployment. They’re the latest in a series of initiatives that began with the establishment of Kateeva Korea earlier this year. That’s when Kateeva, Inc. absorbed the team and assets of OLED Plus, a Seoul-based OLED equipment design, sales, service and support company. The move created an “instant on” local infrastructure equipped to deliver expert support to YIELDjet customers in Korea – the center of gravity for OLED manufacturing.

About Larry Timm

For two-plus decades, Larry Timm has helped US technology companies build strong businesses in Asia and Europe. At venture-backed start-ups and large public corporations, he built international operations, closed complex sales, found new markets for advanced technologies, and facilitated multi-level customer relationships. He has particular expertise in wafer fab process equipment having helped companies like Novellus Systems, Tencor Instruments and Teradyne debut transformational technologies and then engineer speedy sales ramps.

Timm earned a Bachelor’s degree in Biology from Binghampton University in New York, and a Master’s degree in Management from MIT. He served in the United States Navy as an Intelligence Officer, departing with the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

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post #10016 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 06:12 AM
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LG Display Highlights Next-Generation Display Products and Technology Leadership at SID 2014 (Press Release)

LG Display, the world’s leading innovator of display technologies, will showcase the future of display technology, including its ground-breaking OLED panels, at the Society for Information Display’s (SID) Display Week 2014 from June 3 to June 5 at the San Diego Convention Center.

The company will showcase line-ups of curved Ultra HD OLED and LCD TV panels, along with high-definition IT and mobile panel products and commercial display panels during the SID exhibition.

On exhibit will be 55-inch, 65-inch and 77-inch Ultra HD curved OLED TV panels which provide superior picture quality.

[Lots of UHD stuff removed]

Apart from the exhibition, LG Display will deliver six presentations on OLED panel technology, including three invited technical papers, at the SID technology conference from June 1 to June 7, which highlights the company’s leadership on OLED technologies.

The subjects of the three invited technical papers include ▶Development of Commercial Flexible AMOLEDs, ▶Advanced Technologies for Large-sized OLED TVs, and ▶Technological Progress of Panel Design and Compensation Methods for Large-sized Ultra HD OLED TVs.

LG Display will deliver a total of 14 presentations to the conference, which will be attended by more than 6,000 global leaders in the display industry, including industry executives, academics and researchers, underscoring the company’s leading technical expertise in the display sector.

“With our cutting-edge OLED products being showcased and with our expertise in OLED technologies being highlighted in the six conference papers at SID, I believe that LG Display will reaffirm that OLED will lead the next-generation display market,” said Sang-Deog Yeo, LG Display’s Chief Technical Officer and Executive Vice President. “LG Display has become the global display leader as shown by developing many of the world’s first products that incorporate IPS, FPR 3D and OLED technologies and we will continue to do our best in being the world’s leader in next-generation technology.”
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post #10017 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 08:05 AM
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How many models of Flat OLED are currently being produced?

How well does OLED do 3-D?
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post #10018 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 08:55 AM
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I flat OLED and it is only 55". I don't care about 3D.
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post #10019 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 09:13 AM
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I still remember the days when anything over 40, and especially 50, was a freaking huge tv.....they weren't even that long ago. Sigh.

I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't didn't give 2 craps about 3d. Tried it once, looked good I guess. I'm over it.

Vinnie97, one of the kindest, most helpful and respected members here, got one of these. I wonder how much longer before we all get such a message...
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Pick up the signature.
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post #10020 of 10443 Old 05-29-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theplague13 View Post

I still remember the days when anything over 40, and especially 50, was a freaking huge tv.....they weren't even that long ago. Sigh.

I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't didn't give 2 craps about 3d. Tried it once, looked good I guess. I'm over it.

 

You're hardly alone.  We hear that kind of crap :) endlessly around these parts.

 

If a TV doesn't have 3D, I'm not buying it unless there's no other option available at all.


Well Vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, got one of these. I wonder how much longer before I get such a message...
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Reply Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

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