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post #10261 of 10510 Old 06-11-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

The ppi on a 55" 4K television is around 80. That is a fifth of the densities we are seeing in some smartphones.
 
But I'm not sure that this means that the pixel pitch of 80 isn't a dramatic issue on something as large as a TV.  Making a 2K 55" OLED at acceptable yields took quite an effort.  Quadrupling those pixels, with all the tolerances tightened along the way, must be exceedingly difficult.  I'm guessing higher tolerance requirements = lower yields even if you've already mastered even higher tolerances on smaller devices.
 
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Increased pixel density is actually an advantage for WRGB vs. RGB. The highest pixel density prototypes with OLED's have been using WRGB.

 

I wonder if this is because of LG's unified layer approach to the OLED material?

 

 


Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #10262 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

But I'm not sure that this means that the pixel pitch of 80 isn't a dramatic issue on something as large as a TV.  Making a 2K 55" OLED at acceptable yields took quite an effort.  Quadrupling those pixels, with all the tolerances tightened along the way, must be exceedingly difficult.  I'm guessing higher tolerance requirements = lower yields even if you've already mastered even higher tolerances on smaller devices.
The yields will certainly go down for 4K at all sizes, but the discussion began as to why LGD might be manufacturing a 65" and 77" 4K but skip 55" 4K I dont think that pixel density is the answer.

It seems like an odd decision if that is the route that they take for the Christmas 2014 lineup.
 
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I wonder if this is because of LG's unified layer approach to the OLED material?
 
Samsung is using shadow masks to create the RGB pattern, basically a thin metal screen with holes corresponding to each pixel. You can imagine as the distance between holes and the diameter of the holes both get smaller, that the issues only go up. No problem for 4K on televisions, but they must be performing some neat tricks to create the next wave of ~5" quad-hd smartphones panels.
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post #10263 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 04:24 AM
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Patent talks between Samsung and LG break down. It is definitely possible that this is due to Samsung wanting a deal that covers WRGB.

http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/artic...wn-over-patent
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post #10264 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
65" and 77" 4K are projected for the third quarter by a LG spokesman. The fact that they dont mention a 55" 4K model makes me think that they may stick with a single 55" model that is 1080p.

http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/...me%7Cnewslist1
Quote:Will OLED UHD spell success?
LG plans second-half assault to energize flagship TV business

snip...................

A company spokesman said yesterday it will launch the 77-inch and 65-inch curved UHD OLED TVs as soon as the third quarter.

This may have to do with which lines are producing the various TVs. The reports I've seen is the 65" and 77" 4K models are being produced on one of the the M1 lines now while the M2 line is being optimized for the 55" 4K model. The idea being to make the 55" 4K model priced competitively. This would mean the 65" and 77" models could be available sooner though they would be smaller volume and more expensive. It might be q4 before the 55" 4K model is available.
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post #10265 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
This may have to do with which lines are producing the various TVs. The reports I've seen is the 65" and 77" 4K models are being produced on one of the the M1 lines now while the M2 line is being optimized for the 55" 4K model. The idea being to make the 55" 4K model priced competitively. This would mean the 65" and 77" models could be available sooner though they would be smaller volume and more expensive. It might be q4 before the 55" 4K model is available.
Thanks, that would make more sense. A 55" model with 4K seems like a requirement considering the quick move to higher resolutions in the US and China.

LG Display's 20F lists the M1 fab as being used for 55", 65", and 77" production but I wasnt sure if that was just referring to prototypes.

FWIW, Robert Zohn just said on another site to expect the larger 4K models in mid-September.
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post #10266 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
FWIW, Robert Zohn just said on another site to expect the larger 4K models in mid-September.
Do you have faith that it'll be that soon?

Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #10267 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 08:30 AM
 
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Even so, with the shootout set for mid-July, it appears a 4K OLED might not make it in time (of course it will likely win such a contest by default ).
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post #10268 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 09:01 AM
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The VE Shootout list of TVs will be posted on june 16 so all participants were signed before that date.
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post #10269 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 09:35 AM
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Do you have faith that it'll be that soon?
As a general rule, always bet on delays for any new technology.

That being said, my over/under would probably be around Black Friday. As of now, I have yet to hear of anything indicating a delay so hopefully, that means there are no major showstoppers for the 4K models.
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post #10270 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
As a general rule, always bet on delays for any new technology.

That being said, my over/under would probably be around Black Friday. As of now, I have yet to hear of anything indicating a delay so hopefully, that means there are no major showstoppers for the 4K models.
I'm half worried about this ending badly.

I think everyone gets screwed simply by the need to release a new model every year and to have a presence at the time of the shows (even if they're not in the show technically).

Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #10271 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 09:43 AM
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Samsung's not dead yet. Of course, this doesnt say that they will actually ship the 4K OLED televisions, but the first step to getting into the game is to demonstrate something at a show.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...33_158982.html
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An executive of another local Samsung partner said the company is set to wow the industry and participants at the new independent venue as the company will unveil wearable devices, the Galaxy Note3 sequel, home appliances and curved OLED TVs.

"Samsung will unveil the Galaxy Note4 phablet, UHD OLED TVs, a Google Glass rival, and home appliances at the upcoming IFA," said the executive.

Samsung is in the progress of fixing details about its new announcements, he said.

"The Note4 will have two versions ― one with a curved OLED display for niche markets and the other a flat OLED display for mass marketing," said the executive.
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post #10272 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
Samsung's not dead yet. Of course, this doesnt say that they will actually ship the 4K OLED televisions, but the first step to getting into the game is to demonstrate something at a show.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...33_158982.html
Do you really believe that there will be Samsung OLED TVs at IFA 2014?


These are quotes by a unnamed Samsung executive. So basically the guy is starting a rumor. Is he not?
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post #10273 of 10510 Old 06-12-2014, 10:18 AM
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Do you really believe that there will be Samsung OLED TVs at IFA 2014?


These are quotes by a unnamed Samsung executive. So basically the guy is starting a rumor. Is he not?
A few thoughts.

1) The Korea Times didnt start the rumor. I read an analyst say that Samsung would be getting back into OLED televisions in Q3. That was about a month ago.

2) The Korea Times is not one of the newspapers that I trust the most but I put more weight on this because they attributed direct quotes to an exec at a Samsung partner rather than just putting an unsourced statement into the article.

3) Rather than a yes/no statement, I view rumored events in terms of probability. The rumored iWatch might be at 80-90% for a fall launch. I would have put the odds of Samsung announcing an OLED television at IFA at near zero back in March, but now might put it at 30-40%.

One way to evaluate the comments from the source will be to see whether there is any confirmation of multiple Note models. This is the first I have heard of that rumor and I am sure that there are multiple mobile sites trying to confirm whether that is true.
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post #10274 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 05:00 AM
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LG Display Said in Talks to Supply TV Panels to Panasonic

Source: Bloomberg news: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...panasonic.html

LG Display Company is in talks to supply Panasonic Corp with big-screen TV panels using its next-generation technology as the Japanese company tries to lower production costs, people familiar with the matter said.
LG Display, already a provider of smaller screens to Apple Inc., is seeking to boost adoption of organic light-emitting diode technology, the people said, asking not to be identified because the talks are private. The Seoul-based company is seeking to add other Japanese customers, the people said.

[snip]

Chieko Gyobu, a spokeswoman for Osaka-based Panasonic, said the company is considering options for its OLED business and nothing has been decided.
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post #10275 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 05:34 AM
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This is almost too outrageous to post, but in the interest of possible discussion:

LGD sees more than 5 million OLED TV panels produced in 2015

Source: http://www.oled-info.com/lgd-sees-mo...-produced-2015

Quote:
There's an interesting article posted in Korea's eDaily News, quoting an LGD senior official - saying that LGD plans to produce over 5 million OLED TVs in 2015 (in fact they hope to sell between 5 and 6 million).

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post #10276 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 08:01 AM
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post #10277 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
This is almost too outrageous to post, but in the interest of possible discussion:

LGD sees more than 5 million OLED TV panels produced in 2015

Source: http://www.oled-info.com/lgd-sees-mo...-produced-2015
I believe the original source for the 10% number was a Chinese article and I can only assume that it was a misquote of an LGD official.
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post #10278 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 08:18 AM
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The impressive part about this is the price. A MSRP of $499 for the 10.5" display means that street pricing should be meaningfully below the iPad Air.
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post #10279 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
This is almost too outrageous to post, but in the interest of possible discussion:

LGD sees more than 5 million OLED TV panels produced in 2015

Source: http://www.oled-info.com/lgd-sees-mo...-produced-2015
So this is an OLED hype site which understands LG's total capacity is 1.8 million panels, but it reports this drivel anyway? Got it.

Yep, but these are going to be super low production models, I'd imagine.

And, slacker, whether they street below the iPad Air or not, Samsung has now added yet more tablet models to a lineup that (a) no one can possibly comprehend already (b) needs to be sold at deep discounts to move at all. I don't see these making any dents into iPad market share for higher-end tablets to be honest.

I do like that OLED is moving up the food chain, though.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10280 of 10510 Old 06-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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And, slacker, whether they street below the iPad Air or not, Samsung has now added yet more tablet models to a lineup that (a) no one can possibly comprehend already
As a general rule this is something that mystifies me. It's almost as if some technology companies are trying to occupy shelf space the way food companies try to. Apple products routinely annoy me, but one of the things I do have to say that SJ got right was the concept of offering few options. Having a selection of models #s run off the page only makes people leery. There are exceptions to this however. Intel seems to have done really well even though they have a product line so large that it makes IT guys dizzy.

Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #10281 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 04:43 AM
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And, slacker, whether they street below the iPad Air or not, Samsung has now added yet more tablet models to a lineup that (a) no one can possibly comprehend already (b) needs to be sold at deep discounts to move at all. I don't see these making any dents into iPad market share for higher-end tablets to be honest.

I do like that OLED is moving up the food chain, though.
I wont claim to understand Samsung's strategy with respect to the number of models but it has to be said that they have been successful with it in both smartphones and tablets.

I think we need to define "super low" production model. I think of the 7.7" AMOLED tablet when I hear those words and that unit clearly never had any chance to generate any real volume. These tablets are priced much more aggressively so have a chance to sell well for a premium Android tablet. Samsung is also planning to put some marketing muscle behind the tablets and the AMOLED screens do provide some differentiation between it and the competitive models in a similar price range. AV enthusiasts and review sites might not like the oversaturated colors in the Galaxy smartphone line but I have always thought they provided some eye candy for consumers when they walked into stores and were presented with a dozen similar Android options.

That doesnt mean volumes anywhere near the iPad's but a million units a month would take up around 12% of their mobile OLED production capacity.
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post #10282 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
The impressive part about this is the price. A MSRP of $499 for the 10.5" display means that street pricing should be meaningfully below the iPad Air.
Even more: According to Samsung, the 10.5” model features a full RGB stripe. Plus: Battery 7900mAh.

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post #10283 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 08:21 AM
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I no longer see this as an advantage at all; in fact an RGB stripe is a step back. Their latest pentile-like sub arrangements were fantastic if the pictures posted from Chron do them justice. It really defeats the natural aliasing that comes from a rectilinear grid of uniform subs. Also, my Note II (a completely different arrangement) is phenomenal.

Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #10284 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 01:58 PM
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Note 2 is RGB S-stripe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOLED


In defense of RGB stripe I wanna say that my pentile note 1's colors have drifted a bit(noticeably) into the green zone over 2 years of 1-5 hours of use a day. I guess Sammy can't see any point any more in using pentile when it doesn't really help to tackle the color drifting over time issue.
In my humble opinion the move to RGB stripe is a good thing. Samsung have been criticized harshly all over the net for their parchment-like looking whites, transition color shifts ect. RGB stripe solves all those problems.

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post #10285 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
As a general rule this is something that mystifies me. It's almost as if some technology companies are trying to occupy shelf space the way food companies try to. Apple products routinely annoy me, but one of the things I do have to say that SJ got right was the concept of offering few options. Having a selection of models #s run off the page only makes people leery. There are exceptions to this however. Intel seems to have done really well even though they have a product line so large that it makes IT guys dizzy.
So I think Intel is different because they mostly don't sell to consumers. And I think they are over-assorted too.

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I wont claim to understand Samsung's strategy with respect to the number of models but it has to be said that they have been successful with it in both smartphones and tablets.
So I'm going to state with little equivocation: They'd be even more successful with fewer SKUs.
Quote:
I think we need to define "super low" production model. I think of the 7.7" AMOLED tablet when I hear those words and that unit clearly never had any chance to generate any real volume. These tablets are priced much more aggressively so have a chance to sell well for a premium Android tablet.
Yes, this isn't the 7.7". But I think we ought to be careful before we start claiming there is some meaningful "premium Android tablet" market. Samsung takes its existing tablets and whores them out for $100 or more below MSRP at every outlet it can find (e.g. Costco). That's (a) not a premium strategy (b) evidence there isn't a market at $100 higher. Businesses are not buying Android tablets much, nor is education.

There are a lot of Android tablets selling, the vast majority of which are cheap. There are a lot of Samsung tablets selling, the vast majority of which are cheap.
Quote:
Samsung is also planning to put some marketing muscle behind the tablets and the AMOLED screens do provide some differentiation between it and the competitive models in a similar price range.
I see this as a very limited differentiation. People don't look at the iPad and find the screen wanting.
Quote:
AV enthusiasts and review sites might not like the oversaturated colors in the Galaxy smartphone line but I have always thought they provided some eye candy for consumers when they walked into stores and were presented with a dozen similar Android options.
The S5 screen is amazing. It's less clear the new tablets are as good.
Quote:
That doesnt mean volumes anywhere near the iPad's but a million units a month would take up around 12% of their mobile OLED production capacity.
I'm very skeptical these tablets are heading for those volumes, but maybe.

Hmm, multi-part quoting seems pretty broken with the new forum software.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.

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post #10286 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I no longer see this as an advantage at all; in fact an RGB stripe is a step back. Their latest pentile-like sub arrangements were fantastic if the pictures posted from Chron do them justice. It really defeats the natural aliasing that comes from a rectilinear grid of uniform subs.
Contrary to popular belief, using three rectangle stripes isn't the only way to arrange your red, green, and blue subpixels.

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post #10287 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I no longer see this as an advantage at all; in fact an RGB stripe is a step back. Their latest pentile-like sub arrangements were fantastic if the pictures posted from Chron do them justice. It really defeats the natural aliasing that comes from a rectilinear grid of uniform subs.
Contrary to popular belief, using three rectangle stripes isn't the only way to arrange your red, green, and blue subpixels.
I think what the people who said Tab S would have an RGB stripe arrangement meant that it would have an S-RGB stripe pixel-arrangement like note 2 did.

Although it might as well be a good, old standard RGB stripe arrangement which is a good thing, however you slice it, in short-term (1-2 years)

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post #10288 of 10510 Old 06-14-2014, 11:29 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
Note 2 is RGB S-stripe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOLED
In defense of RGB stripe I wanna say that my pentile note 1's colors have drifted a bit(noticeably) into the green zone over 2 years of 1-5 hours of use a day. I guess Sammy can't see any point any more in using pentile when it doesn't really help to tackle the color drifting over time issue. In my humble opinion the move to RGB stripe is a good thing. Samsung have been criticized harshly all over the net for their parchment-like looking whites, transition color shifts ect. RGB stripe solves all those problems.
Still more incredible is that according to the source the 8.4” Tab S has a diamond PenTile subpixel structure. Lovers of Pentile just buy the smaller beast. It will be fun to test both displays side-by-side to see if differences are visible.

irkuck

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post #10289 of 10510 Old 06-15-2014, 07:06 AM
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Quoting remains broken, so I'll put your quotes in bold to keep them separate from my comments. What a mess otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post
Yep. And I love the way it looks. Like I said, the note 2 is a completely different arrangement; for me the way that it helps defeat the natural aliasing that forms from stripe arrangement grids. I'm not convinced that the way it does this was entirely on their radar at the time.


Quote:
In defense of RGB stripe I wanna say that my pentile note 1's colors have drifted a bit(noticeably) into the green zone over 2 years of 1-5 hours of use a day. I guess Sammy can't see any point any more in using pentile when it doesn't really help to tackle the color drifting over time issue.
In my humble opinion the move to RGB stripe is a good thing. Samsung have been criticized harshly all over the net for their parchment-like looking whites, transition color shifts ect. RGB stripe solves all those problems.
Your Note 1 is quite old in OLED terms. That color shift sounds like a simple blue fade. Changing to a stripe arrangement by itself will not solve that problem unless it's specifically enlarging the blue, which in any arrangement would help that fade.

Their S5 grid will do a better job IMO. Admittedly it's not from a site I believe to be non biased: http://news.oled-display.net/samsung...xel-structure/

Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.

Last edited by tgm1024; 06-15-2014 at 07:09 AM.
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post #10290 of 10510 Old 06-16-2014, 05:34 AM
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Exclamation

It might take years to work out all these BUGS with these OLED TV's

I will wait until they do.
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Reply Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

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