OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 354 - AVS Forum
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post #10591 of 11491 Old 08-07-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Weboh View Post
I can see why LG hedged its bets with Plasma for a while now. The Chinese are not good at making the technology. If OLED is supposed to blow Plasma out of the water, why hang on to it? LG doesn't want a price war with LCD. very interesting.


Developed Western nations and Japan,so. Korea ascendance and decline cycle is unfortunately in the natural order of things from a historical perspective e.g, Egypt,Rome,the Barbarians ,Europe,Spain,France England,USA,Japan, so Korea............ (many of these trends can be broken down into smaller regions also )..historically speaking someone always fills the voids.....tragically it's happening in the middle east as we speak .not hard to guess which nation is ascending starts with a C that fact has not escaped big business either they are always ahead of curve in that respect we were there doing J.V's early on when things opened up, eastern Europe also. Viet Nam is getting trendy now !

PS by the time the folks get wind of ( global bus. trends) it's already happening for a good while

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post #10592 of 11491 Old 08-07-2014, 07:43 PM
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Just posting some info that I posted in the EC659700 65" OLED thread in the main OLED thread as I think some people who subscribe to this thread would like to Know the expected availability in Canada. Any other Canadians please add what you've heard about Canadian availability.

Looks like I'll be getting my 65" OLED the first week (ETA) of September

Just got confirmation from my dealer, and got the Canadian pricing which is better then the US pre-order (6250) when you factor in the exchange rate!

There is a limited supply in the first batch and it looks like Canada may receive the initial shipment. I'm so pumped. In about a month I should have my dream TV LG has been doing demos and shows aggressively in Canada. I wouldn't be surprised if Canada had more OLED sales volume then other regions. Canadian 4K adoption has also been higher then that of the US.

Anyone else gonna pre-order in Canada? and have you gotten pricing yet? My dealer says the first batch is tiny with more coming at the end of September and every month will have an increase as I assume the production of the 65" is still limited. He is already filling up on pre-order deal, but he knows to contact me first and I love getting pre-order specials.

I hope to be the first person in the world to own it Not sure how but my dealer constantly gets products before anyone else. I was the first owner of a production JVC X70 in the world (not just north america, but the actual world), and was going to get the very first Sony 500es in the world as well, but had to back out and the lucky guy after me ended up getting it. I'm not exaggerating or bragging either, just excited to hopefully get it first.

Also would like to know if anyone has gotten an ETA of first week of September or earlier. Seems like initial shipments to the US will be end of September, and the rest of the world? Surprised they aren't launching these in Korea first.
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post #10593 of 11491 Old 08-07-2014, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
First I've heard of any plans for an M3 production line: http://olednet.com/eng/sub02.php?mid...uid=185&ctg1=1


"However, it is expected that LG Display will place orders for Gen6 line for plastic OLED and M3 line for large size TV over 55 inches"

The article was dated today.


And More: http://www.oled-info.com/ubi-researc...st-growth-2016


"UBI also expects LGD to start constructing a new OLED TV fab, the M3 line (in addition to the M2 fab which is very close to mass production). "
Good info as usual
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
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post #10594 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
There were more pixel gradients the closer you stood to it? I don't understand.
Of course, it's only a 1080p set, thats why 4k solves this issue, you can sit within 3ft of a 60" panel and you won't see those issues, as I noticed with LG's 4k (LED) model.
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post #10595 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
^ tell them to get their act together with Microsoft CE so we can actually make it through a whole flight without so many problems in the entertainment system
Ford motor finally got wise and dumped M$ altogether going forward for in car infotainment and controls
I don't know who they R using now could be Bosh (doubtful ain't cheap ) ,Visteon,Panasonic or maybe in house with a little help, could even be Bose or HK for I know maybe not they both like to brand everything but AFAIK they have the tech. .
Probably better off with forked Linux than embedded windows for that kind of stuff anyway .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
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post #10596 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by theatredaz View Post
Of course, it's only a 1080p set, thats why 4k solves this issue, you can sit within 3ft of a 60" panel and you won't see those issues, as I noticed with LG's 4k (LED) model.
I'm still confused by "pixel gradients". Do you mean the color depth contouring or the ability to see the individual subs? An image gradient, or just gradient is usually about exposing how color/gray ramps look and what was done to mitigate the contouring from too low a bit depth.

4K does not solve the contouring issue, unless it's employing a scattering or dithering kind of approach in which case the dither itself is at a higher resolution and is less obvious. But even at 2K resolutions, that dithering is nearly impossible to discern anyway even with equipment because it's a dither of neighboring output levels.

Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #10597 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I'm still confused by "pixel gradients". Do you mean the color depth contouring or the ability to see the individual subs? An image gradient, or just gradient is usually about exposing how color/gray ramps look and what was done to mitigate the contouring from too low a bit depth.

4K does not solve the contouring issue, unless it's employing a scattering or dithering kind of approach in which case the dither itself is at a higher resolution and is less obvious. But even at 2K resolutions, that dithering is nearly impossible to discern anyway even with equipment because it's a dither of neighboring output levels.
Interesting about the dithering thing I have a 2013 40" Sony R4 in the bedroom I got the panel number outa
the service menu and looked it up at panelook it's a Samsung SPVA-2 ,6 bit + high frc panel on a 10 bit interface in 8 bit display overdrive mode . I was pissed thinking it wasn't any good almost sent it back till I figured it out !

I wasn't all that happy with the colors at the time till I figured out just use Cinema mode ,neut color and max out contrast and back light and go from there and then everything fell into line . This panel has .022 cd/m2 black and 4750:1 contrast and V.G. picture now little better and little brighter than 2014 W600B sets IMO. ofc that was in the store vs mine at home .
.Sony R4 can resolve 0-255 color also . I'll trade off 8 bit for 6 bit + high frc for better contrast and black levels if given the choice of having to choose one over the other.


Not knowing much (nothing at all ) about these (6 bit + high frc) things I read up on it and AFAIK found out modern 6 bit high frc panels can do all of 8 bit color just fine with modern algorithms and fast dithering , grey scale and color gradients looked V.G. on AVS HD.709 test patterns also. On solids only slight radial banding U can't see on program
back light uniformity is real decent also. only rub is Cyan is pushing a little blue nothing noticeable on pgm though .
don't know if it's the TV silicon or the panel .


At least for this set it worked out fine wouldent be surprised if Sony and others were doing the 6 bit + high frc thing a lot now in the 1080p sets with VA and maybe similar for *some 4K sets with Sammy or AUO VA panels .No clue if LGD even makes those .

FWIW here are some interesting Sony black /contrast comparison from Rtings.co.

5 Sony black level + contrast Comparison
http://www.rtings.com/reviews/tv/lcd-led/sony

2013 Sony R450A Black: 0.022 cd/m2 Contrast: 4750 : 1 Samsung SPVA

2014 Sony W600B Black: 0.026 cd/m2 Contrast: 3500 : 1 Samsing SPVA

2014 Sony W800B Black: 0.020 cd/m2 Contrast: 5260 : 1 AUO AMVA5

2014 Sony W850B Black: 0.026 cd/m2 Contrast: 4273 : probably AUO AMVA *panel mfr/type/spec may vary by size

2014 Sony W950B Black: 0.111 cd/m2 Contrast: 942 : 1 >>>>maybe LGD S- IPS

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #10598 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Not knowing much (nothing at all ) about these (6 bit + high frc) things I read up on it and AFAIK found out modern 6 bit high frc panels can do all of 8 bit color just fine with modern algorithms and fast dithering
"fast"? I'm going to have to look this up to see what they're doing at the hardware level: There might be a temporal-domain dithering taking place (a kind of PWM), but I can't imagine why. That's the trouble that plasma runs into. The dithering I was referring to was spatial in nature. But yeah, it's really a non-issue these days. What is a royal PITA is when you have a TV that doesn't do anything at all and you end up with severe contouring. Talk about absolutely annoying.

Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #10599 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
"fast"? I'm going to have to look this up to see what they're doing at the hardware level: There might be a temporal-domain dithering taking place (a kind of PWM), but I can't imagine why. That's the trouble that plasma runs into. The dithering I was referring to was spatial in nature. But yeah, it's really a non-issue these days. What is a royal PITA is when you have a TV that doesn't do anything at all and you end up with severe contouring. Talk about absolutely annoying.
I'm not even sure I fully understood what I read about ( no surprise there at least in these things)There was something mentioned about dithering adjacent pixels at a very high rate of speed to make 8 bit color on a six bit panel .

I would imagine it would need some fast panel driver or switching circuits ,I might of even read that for all I know ?.
If you check it out let us know in layman terms if you know what I mean .

I know what PWM is not so sure about temporal domain dithering or the spatial thing as it relates to panel dither both are something I'm unfamiliar with,not surprisingly , maybe I should read a bit on those at least what I might be able to understand half way anyway. .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #10600 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 01:43 PM
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I'm not even sure I fully understood what I read about ( no surprise there at least in these things)There was something mentioned about dithering adjacent pixels at a very high rate of speed to make 8 bit color on a six bit panel .
I would imagine it would need some fast panel driver or switching circuits ,I might of even read that for all I know ?.
You may be seeing that from a plasma discussion (plasma cells can pulse very fast...it's how they work), but the lowest level GtG times, even from adjacent levels take far too much time that they just wouldn't attempt to do in LCD. At least I can't stretch reality enough to understand how. Perhaps I'm missing something myself here...spatial dithering not only works well, but is nearly imperceptible.

Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #10601 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 01:52 PM
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You may be seeing that from a plasma discussion (plasma cells can pulse very fast...it's how they work), but the lowest level GtG times, even from adjacent levels take far too much time that they just wouldn't attempt to do in LCD. At least I can't stretch reality enough to understand how. Perhaps I'm missing something myself here...spatial dithering not only works well, but is nearly imperceptible.
Actually I was reading about LCD panels specifically the high FRC overdrive thing
I think I read that the adjacent pixel dithering additive color thing has to happen much faster than
the normal frame rate so maybe they are also using faster TFT's in these overdrive panels?

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #10602 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 02:32 PM
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Actually I was reading about LCD panels specifically the high FRC overdrive thing
I think I read that the adjacent pixel dithering additive color thing has to happen much faster than
the normal frame rate so maybe they are also using faster TFT's in these overdrive panels?
Hmmmm....

This collides with what I've read in the past. I'll have to dig this up when I have time. Maybe I'll PM Chron about it. Love learning/re-learning/un-learning etc. new stuff!

Send this to all your friends! When will this stupidity end? So hysterical: Vertical Video Syndrome --- a PSA.
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post #10603 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 02:42 PM
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Hmmmm....

This collides with what I've read in the past. I'll have to dig this up when I have time. Maybe I'll PM Chron about it. Love learning/re-learning/un-learning etc. new stuff!
I may have it all wrong on the overdrive panel thing but that's what I took away from the little reading I did
hopefully I interpreted what I read some what cogently ofc I can't guarantee that either

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #10604 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I'm still confused by "pixel gradients". Do you mean the color depth contouring or the ability to see the individual subs? An image gradient, or just gradient is usually about exposing how color/gray ramps look and what was done to mitigate the contouring from too low a bit depth.

4K does not solve the contouring issue, unless it's employing a scattering or dithering kind of approach in which case the dither itself is at a higher resolution and is less obvious. But even at 2K resolutions, that dithering is nearly impossible to discern anyway even with equipment because it's a dither of neighboring output levels.
* I mean the color / white levels to dark levels, the gradients are finer, compared to a backlit LED display, which some have haloing(whites around bright scenes etc)> my Elite panel has a faint glow, and only noticable when the lighting is attenuated 70%. *But unoticable in brighter room. Off angle the LG didn't show these halo'ing anomolies etc.

It's also the thinnest Panel I have ever seen @ thinner than an ipad.
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post #10605 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 11:20 PM
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I was watching the 55" LG OLED a couple days ago (Futureshop) and I had the same experience as every other time: loved the contrast and color!
My problem is I'm now too sensitive to the pixel structure in 1080p flat panels. To get even a hint of the immersion I'm used at home (JVC projector) I start seeing the pixel structure and it just makes the image look a tad crude. It's just a fact of life with flat panels that their pixel structure is more vivid and obvious than you get with certain projection technologies (e.g. newer JVCs, where pixels are impossible to perceive from any rational viewing distance). Once you get used to a totally smooth image there's no going back IMO. So for me if I ever got a flat panel for "critical viewing" it would have to be a 4K model where I could enjoy a more immersive image without the obvious pixel structure. That's one thing at least that all these new 4K displays have going for them, even if 4K sources aren't available yet in any useful degree.
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post #10606 of 11491 Old 08-08-2014, 11:29 PM
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I was watching the 55" LG OLED a couple days ago (Futureshop) and I had the same experience as every other time: loved the contrast and color!
My problem is I'm now too sensitive to the pixel structure in 1080p flat panels. To get even a hint of the immersion I'm used at home (JVC projector) I start seeing the pixel structure and it just makes the image look a tad crude. It's just a fact of life with flat panels that their pixel structure is more vivid and obvious than you get with certain projection technologies (e.g. newer JVCs, where pixels are impossible to perceive from any rational viewing distance). Once you get used to a totally smooth image there's no going back IMO. So for me if I ever got a flat panel for "critical viewing" it would have to be a 4K model where I could enjoy a more immersive image without the obvious pixel structure. That's one thing at least that all these new 4K displays have going for them, even if 4K sources aren't available yet in any useful degree.
4k oled sounds like heaven
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post #10607 of 11491 Old 08-09-2014, 08:51 AM
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* I've been reading on the e-shift projectors and their pixel structure at 1ft is practically non existent, I enjoy watching a movie from 5ft away from the screen, but 1080p is only watchable up close on 55" and smaller, 70" and up and you see the grain structure, unless you sit 9ft back , which is not an option in every home because of space limitions.

* I picked up a 70" panel and had to return it because I had to be 9ft-12 ft from it to view it, that when I discovered that large panel technology is insufficient to deal with closer sitting capabilities etc.

* 4K + OLED panels solve this issue, so it's like go from an ipad to an ipad with retina display.

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post #10608 of 11491 Old 08-09-2014, 10:22 AM
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* I've been reading on the e-shift projectors and their pixel structure at 1ft is practically non existent, I enjoy watching a movie from 5ft away from the screen, but 1080p is only watchable up close on 55" and smaller, 70" and up and you see the grain structure, unless you sit 9ft back , which is not an option in every home because of space limitions.

* 4K + OLED panels solve this issue, so it's like go from an ipad to an ipad with retina display.
Yes, once you get used to essentially no pixel structure it's hard to go back, like once people got used to retina
screens going back to older res smartphones. (Again, all this is predicated on viewing distance of course - but since many of us here appreciate some immersion in our viewing experience, pixel structure becomes a real issue and possible detriment. Like I said when I view OLED I want to get closer, as I do with the 4K displays, but the 1080p pixel structure starts degrading the experience).
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* I agree it does ruin the experience up close, it's taken this long to realize that ipads retina technology can be implemented onto large panel displays, so far everyone in the Industry feels there's not a market for Large displays, possibly because of the max resolution acheivable or people don't prefer large panels to watch on.
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post #10610 of 11491 Old 08-10-2014, 09:37 PM
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Yes, once you get used to essentially no pixel structure it's hard to go back, like once people got used to retina
screens going back to older res smartphones. (Again, all this is predicated on viewing distance of course - but since many of us here appreciate some immersion in our viewing experience, pixel structure becomes a real issue and possible detriment. Like I said when I view OLED I want to get closer, as I do with the 4K displays, but the 1080p pixel structure starts degrading the experience).
Is it any worse than plasma or LCD?
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post #10611 of 11491 Old 08-10-2014, 10:11 PM
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Is it any worse than plasma or LCD?

I don't believe we ill ever see 4K plasmas (and that fact likely contributed to Panasonic's and Samsung's decision to abandon plasma technology).


I have not seen a 4K OLD yet, but I believe the pixel structure should look as smooth / hard to discern as the current crop of 4K LCDs that can be seen in any Best Buy now...
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post #10612 of 11491 Old 08-10-2014, 10:16 PM
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LG will be producing their bend-able OLED sets that go from curved to flat with at touch from the remote. I guess it's the closest thing to a flat we are going to get. Gas anyone heard that curved OLED panels are easier to fabricate? Does that make sense at all?

I don't call ever seeing an answer to this question, but David Susilo just indicated in another thread that the OLED manufacturing process results in a natural curvature of the sheet which will have an increased probability of failure when flattened (either increased yield loss or increased probability of failure when cycling power in the field): http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-fla...pressions.html (post #47 )

Has anyone else heard anything to this effect? If true, it will probably mean that some curvature of the screen will be a inevitable byproduct of OLED TVs for some time...

[EDIT: according to Rogo, this may all be nonsense. I don't have an opinion (or any knowledge) on the matter and am just a bit concerned/upset that there are not more flat OLED TVs...]

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post #10613 of 11491 Old 08-10-2014, 10:51 PM
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I don't call ever seeing an answer to this question, but David Susilo just indicated in another thread that the OLED manufacturing process results in a natural curvature of the sheet which will have an increased probability of failure when flattened (either increased yield loss or increased probability of failure when cycling power in the field): http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-fla...pressions.html (post #47 )


Has anyone else heard anything to this effect? If true, it will probably mean that some curvature of the screen will be a inevitable byproduct of OLED TVs for some time...
It's nonsense and nothing but urban legend.

The screens are made on flat substrates. They are curved only after being manufactured flat.

I find it odd he repeated this urban legend as if it was fact but it isn't.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #10614 of 11491 Old 08-10-2014, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
It's nonsense and nothing but urban legend.

The screens are made on flat substrates. They are curved only after being manufactured flat.

I find it odd he repeated this urban legend as if it was fact but it isn't.
... and my family connection at Kateeva agrees with Rogo word for word.

It might also be a marketing legend.
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post #10615 of 11491 Old 08-11-2014, 12:53 PM
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OLED prices are still going down. $3500 for a 55" LG.

In a few years I might be able to afford a 60" 4K OLED.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/lg-oled-...tml#xtor=RSS-5
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post #10616 of 11491 Old 08-11-2014, 01:39 PM
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And there might actually be native 4K content widely available.

Unless we're saying 4K OLEDs will make 720p and up content look better than the 1080p displays we have now.
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post #10617 of 11491 Old 08-11-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
And there might actually be native 4K content widely available.

Unless we're saying 4K OLEDs will make 720p and up content look better than the 1080p displays we have now.
OLEDs will make it look better, that's part of the oeveral PQ gains the technology represents. The resolution is negligible.
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post #10618 of 11491 Old 08-11-2014, 03:50 PM
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Supposedly the 4K standard includes improvements in color.

Issue is whether 4K TVs have good enough scalers.

An article noted the Chinese were buying up cheap 4K TVs, made by unknown (in the West) brands and these models didn't have the "electronics" that the Japanese and Korean makers integrated into premium-priced 4K TVs.
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post #10619 of 11491 Old 08-11-2014, 04:31 PM
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Right now it's just resolution. And really it's just up scaled resolution with the practically nonexistent quality content available; pretty much heavily compressed streaming is the main source of content too.
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post #10620 of 11491 Old 08-11-2014, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
OLEDs will make it look better, that's part of the oeveral PQ gains the technology represents. The resolution is negligible.
Either way 4k or 1080P 65 inch OLED will look good. Eh?
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Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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