OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 357 - AVS Forum
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post #10681 of 10707 Old 08-23-2014, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aja View Post
I came across an article about a new plasma etching system that was supplied to LG earlier this month for OLED television production. "It greatly improves the yield as compared to existing etching systems including the vacuum plasma method, and drastically reduces etching costs."

An even better etcher is planned for release in the first half of 2015.

http://global.ofweek.com/news/APP-su...-Display-17038

One small variable in the complicated equation of how LG is going to further improve yields and drive down costs in order to hit their target of getting their OLED prices down below the '1.5X of premium LED/LCD' level by mid 2015...

Good find.
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post #10682 of 10707 Old 08-23-2014, 07:08 PM
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Of course, the number one factor for LG will be to push up volumes, which will push down costs, which will allow them to hit that target.

So we're back to a chicken-and-egg scenario, yes. But brute force + aggressive pricing + good marketing will go a long way.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10683 of 10707 Old 08-23-2014, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Of course, the number one factor for LG will be to push up volumes, which will push down costs, which will allow them to hit that target.

So we're back to a chicken-and-egg scenario, yes. But brute force + aggressive pricing + good marketing will go a long way.
Can't argue with you on that.

Still, this is the 'OLED TV: Technology Advancements Thread' and it is nice to see that LG has some manufacturing improvements in the M2 pipeline that will further increase yields and drive down costs (beyond the ever-important volume-driven economies of scale).
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post #10684 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 03:28 AM
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Should one still be concerned about dead/stucked pixels? 4K means total amount of pixels like in 4 2K sets. So 4x higher probability for bad pixels comparing to a 2K set. I hope LG has gone up not only on size but pixel reliability too.

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post #10685 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Should one still be concerned about dead/stucked pixels? 4K means total amount of pixels like in 4 2K sets. So 4x higher probability for bad pixels comparing to a 2K set. I hope LG has gone up not only on size but pixel reliability too.
Wouldn't that also mean that the subpixels are 1/4th the previous size and may be fairly hard to see?

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post #10686 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Wouldn't that also mean that the subpixels are 1/4th the previous size and may be fairly hard to see?
That brings us back to the question how much sense the 4K really makes . If pixels are invisible it does not matter they are dead or not . But it would not be for my taste if LG has liberal attitude to sick 4K pixels just because people won't see them anyway. Either all pixels healthy or no panels.

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post #10687 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 07:13 AM
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It is the sheer thought of having a dead pixel that can drive people crazy.
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post #10688 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 10:42 AM
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One "stuck" pixel even on a 4K set will be visible at a great distance.

A dead one might not be, but I would return a TV with a single dead pixel out of 8 million on general principles.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10689 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 10:53 AM
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A small tidbit from the WSJ: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/08/...v-prices-down/


"Without providing specific figures, LG said that its monthly OLED TV shipments currently top what it sold during all of 2013. Research firm IHS estimates LG sold about 3,000 units in 2013."


So with the launch of the 55EC9300 at $3000-3500, they are currently selling more than 3000 a month (36,000 annual runrate). A factor of 10 is not bad start but they need to get up to a factor off 100 soon.


The M2 production line will be pumping out 140,000 OLEDs per month once it is running at full capacity of 26,000 Gen-8 sheets per month.


Even at 30,000 55" OLEDs per month, LG will be using only ~20% of the M2 production capacity...
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post #10690 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Wouldn't that also mean that the subpixels are 1/4th the previous size and may be fairly hard to see?
Yes... In all honesty I have never owned a Panasonic or Samsung that didn't have at least one dead pixel or some sort of screen defect. And this is with 5 Panasonics and 4 Samsungs... I just came to expect it after awhile, and it's good I did. Obsessing about it is pointless IMO.

I believe it's not an issue... From 12' on a 65" 1080p screen I can not see the dead pixel we have unless I have a calibration slide up and I'm specifically looking for it. I never notice it with normal material. Ever.

Stuck pixels would be another story though; I would return for that reason. However, with 4K I bet it would be less of an issue, as you said the sub-pixels would be so tiny. I can't say until I experience it myself.

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post #10691 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 11:33 AM
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Regarding LG's ability to produce OLED panels, how long before they begin supplying panels for other TV brands (private label) like Panasonic, Sony, Vizio?
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post #10692 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Regarding LG's ability to produce OLED panels, how long before they begin supplying panels for other TV brands (private label) like Panasonic, Sony, Vizio?

Believe they are just starting the Chinese brands and early stages with one or two of the Japanese brands. First partner products probably announced at CES 2015...
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post #10693 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
A small tidbit from the WSJ: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/08/...v-prices-down/


"Without providing specific figures, LG said that its monthly OLED TV shipments currently top what it sold during all of 2013. Research firm IHS estimates LG sold about 3,000 units in 2013."


So with the launch of the 55EC9300 at $3000-3500, they are currently selling more than 3000 a month (36,000 annual runrate). A factor of 10 is not bad start but they need to get up to a factor off 100 soon.


The M2 production line will be pumping out 140,000 OLEDs per month once it is running at full capacity of 26,000 Gen-8 sheets per month.


Even at 30,000 55" OLEDs per month, LG will be using only ~20% of the M2 production capacity...
3000 is just an estimation. Has nothing to do with actual OLED sales. Nobody knows how many LG OLEDs were sold in 2013. So 3000 might be correct but it also could be 1000 or 5000..

I have seen no user on a Forum who owned a 2013 LG OLED. Less than 1000 sold might be realistic..
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post #10694 of 10707 Old 08-26-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
One "stuck" pixel even on a 4K set will be visible at a great distance.

A dead one might not be, but I would return a TV with a single dead pixel out of 8 million on general principles.
Have you actually checked your plasma for dead/stuck pixels? Either it is normal or my luck is very bad. Over the years, I've checked for it on 2 plasmas (sammy and panasonic) as well as Sharp Elite LCD. They all had 2+ malfunctioning pixels. Several LCOS projectors I've owned also had some. I've never actually seen a zero defect panel other than some small LCDs.
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post #10695 of 10707 Old 08-27-2014, 01:19 AM
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Yes, my plasma has zero pixel defects. I have checked it with various appropriate test patterns. My previous one (which wasn't 1080p) was same.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10696 of 10707 Old 08-27-2014, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
One "stuck" pixel even on a 4K set will be visible at a great distance. A dead one might not be, but I would return a TV with a single dead pixel out of 8 million on general principles.
If LG is able to mass produce OLEDs with 4K of pristine, long-life pixels I am floored. No other thing to do then than waiting for their 110" 4K OLED to buy it as the last and final display in this life.

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post #10697 of 10707 Old 08-27-2014, 09:33 AM
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LG BEGINS TAKING KOREAN PRE-ORDERS FOR UHD OLED TVs INCORPORATING WRGB TECH:

http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-tele...ns-n35674.html
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post #10698 of 10707 Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
If LG is able to mass produce OLEDs with 4K of pristine, long-life pixels I am floored. No other thing to do then than waiting for their 110" 4K OLED to buy it as the last and final display in this life.
That is also my ultimate display goal and it appears to finally be possible, perhaps within the next decade. A 110" panel would be just the right size to make it through the door frame. 4K OLED (flat panel) would be the ideal technology, or at least would appear to be for the near future. An additional caveat is that the price would be no greater than $10K, but given the precipitous drop in display prices this no longer seems to be an impossibility. The biggest problem with all of this is that I have a finite lifespan and the clock is ticking.
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post #10699 of 10707 Old Yesterday, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
If LG is able to mass produce OLEDs with 4K of pristine, long-life pixels I am floored. No other thing to do then than waiting for their 110" 4K OLED to buy it as the last and final display in this life.
When you look at your last sentence and realize the ramifications of " final display in this life" what does this say about the future of the TV industry? If anybody/everybody can mass produce OLED's with 4K of pristine long-life pixels, what differences can the competing brands like sony, LG, Samsung, Panasonic, Vizio, anybody else that wants to private lable, offer that will differentiate themselves from the pack? Where do we go from a baseline that offers OLED's with 4K of pristine long -lived pixels? 8K?
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post #10700 of 10707 Old Today, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
If LG is able to mass produce OLEDs with 4K of pristine, long-life pixels I am floored. No other thing to do then than waiting for their 110" 4K OLED to buy it as the last and final display in this life.
I'm good with a display that will last 7-10 years, irkuck. I'll go to 77 inches this time... Then 110 for the next one... Have to work up the curve.

42 --> 50 --> 65* --> 77 --> 110

* Current flat panel in the rogo household, prior and future sizes listed
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10701 of 10707 Old Today, 05:42 AM
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77 to 110 is a pretty huge step compared to the rest. You better hope for a massive price drop (printable OLED etc)
edit: better comparision
65 v 77

65 v 110

Last edited by Matthias Hutter; Today at 05:59 AM.
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post #10702 of 10707 Old Today, 06:06 AM
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my current tv is 55 so 65 is next for me besides i got new tv cabinet and it fits 65 so no brainer
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post #10703 of 10707 Old Today, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Matthias Hutter View Post
77 to 110 is a pretty huge step compared to the rest. You better hope for a massive price drop (printable OLED etc)
edit: better comparision
65 v 77

65 v 110

LG can manufacture a 110" OLED, but it will require an entire Gen-8 sheet (one TV per sheet):http://www.auo.com/?lang=en-US&sn=188

What is interesting is that the 2 77" OLEDs currently being manufactured on a single panel only consume about 2/3 of the panel. The maximum size for a 2-up Gen-8 panel configuration is about 98" (so 2 98" OLEDs per Geb-8 sheet, just like 2 77" OLEDs per sheet currently).

This to say I think it is very unlikely we will see 110" OLEDs brought into real production before one or two larger sizes from the 2-up configuration are introduced first.

My prediction is for an 80-something inch OLED introduced in 2015. 84" and 85" is available through Samsung and LG this year, so I would expect a 2015 LG OLED to be announced somewhere in the range of 87-88"
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post #10704 of 10707 Old Today, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
LG can manufacture a 110" OLED, but it will require an entire Gen-8 sheet (one TV per sheet):http://www.auo.com/?lang=en-US&sn=188

What is interesting is that the 2 77" OLEDs currently being manufactured on a single panel only consume about 2/3 of the panel. The maximum size for a 2-up Gen-8 panel configuration is about 98" (so 2 98" OLEDs per Geb-8 sheet, just like 2 77" OLEDs per sheet currently).

This to say I think it is very unlikely we will see 110" OLEDs brought into real production before one or two larger sizes from the 2-up configuration are introduced first.

My prediction is for an 80-something inch OLED introduced in 2015. 84" and 85" is available through Samsung and LG this year, so I would expect a 2015 LG OLED to be announced somewhere in the range of 87-88"
Why not offer a 98 inch display if they can get exactly two out of one sheet?
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post #10705 of 10707 Old Today, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Why not offer a 98 inch display if they can get exactly two out of one sheet?

There is a second-order yield impact from using more of the sheet, but more importantly, LG gains nothing by introducing a new product that is not going to sell. The 110" prototype they will show off at CES will be for bragging rights only (like the 105" $120 Samsung S9 at CES 2014), but if they introduce a new size, they will want it to drive incremental sales, so following or slightly leading the existing large-size LED/LCD market makes much more sense...
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post #10706 of 10707 Old Today, 01:53 PM
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I think I understand what you're saying but two 98" panels that come from one sheet is different than one 104" panel that comes from the same sheet but with a lot of wasted material. If they are going to market a 84" panel and sell it for a profit long range, what are they going to do with the rest of the OLED sheet? It seems like it might actually be more cost effective to make the 98" and sell it for the same price you were going to sell the 84" for.
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post #10707 of 10707 Old Today, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I think I understand what you're saying but two 98" panels that come from one sheet is different than one 104" panel that comes from the same sheet but with a lot of wasted material. If they are going to market a 84" panel and sell it for a profit long range, what are they going to do with the rest of the OLED sheet? It seems like it might actually be more cost effective to make the 98" and sell it for the same price you were going to sell the 84" for.

This is already the case with the 77" (2 per Gen-8 sheet; 33% of the sheet wasted).

Going from 98" to 99" results in going from 2 OLEDs per Gen-8 sheet to only a single OLED for Gen-8 sheet (same as for a 110" panel, the maximum possible on a Gen-8 sheet).

Until yields reach 99.99%, there is always some lost yield associated with using more of the sheet, and then there re also secondary considerations/costs like shipping & handling, mechanical support structure, etc...

I think LG will follow or slightly lead the market for premium large-screen TVs (but not get too far in front of it, as Samsung is with their 105" $120,000 S9 :-)
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