OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 53 - AVS Forum
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post #1561 of 10549 Old 08-25-2010, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by moreHD View Post


Yes it is a prototype, as much of a prototype as the 15-incher was half a year before it landed in shops in South Korea.

Hi any links for this? I have never heard that OLED monitors are commercially available in shops
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post #1562 of 10549 Old 08-26-2010, 05:32 AM
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-Electroni...sr=8-1-catcorr

Been available in Korea since December 2009 and March in the UK.
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post #1563 of 10549 Old 08-26-2010, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Wilt View Post

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-Electroni...sr=8-1-catcorr

Been available in Korea since December 2009 and March in the UK.

I saw the Korean version in person earlier this year and liked what I saw... even if the set was in it's Vivid mode. Unfortunately I did not take the opportunity to play with the picture settings... (edge enhancement, overscan and color temp were items I was wanting to adjust). Perhaps LG will release a new model state side later this year if the conditions are right?
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post #1564 of 10549 Old 08-26-2010, 06:54 AM
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Cool stuff. Frankly I didn't even know they are commercially available. But of course 15" is more like NB/monitor size than TV. Biggest wonder is where they get the OLED panel. Doubt samsung will sell it to them

Just met LG's OLED driver manufacturer Silicon Works. Said Industrial OLED TV coming in 4Q in small amounts but I'm skeptical. Let's see how LG Display ramp goes.
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post #1565 of 10549 Old 08-26-2010, 08:48 AM
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LG designed and manufactured the panel themselves.
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post #1566 of 10549 Old 08-28-2010, 06:59 AM
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Very unlikely (0.01%!) for the Samsung Galaxy Tab to have a 7" OLED screen. If so, they'd be handcuffing themselves in terms of supply. Also, they wouldn't be able to make it cost under $1000.

You are right that supply is a concern. Comments from the Korean press indicate that Samsung is only able to supply about half of industry demand right now. It likely makes more sense to try and fulfill demand from the handset industry before releasing an OLED based tablet.

However, you are wrong about the pricing. The pricing of the LG and Sony OLED TV's have no relation to Samsung's cost structure. LG and Sony have been using tiny R&D fabs with little capacity to produce those TV's versus the Samsung commercial 4.5G fab which is running full tilt right now at good yields. The pricing still wont be equivalent to LCD pricing, but we are no longer talking about a 10x price premium. Samsung is selling millions of 4" Super AMOLED screens in their Galaxy smartphones and the move to a 7" display wouldnt be much of a stretch.

Imagine the price of a car if GM could only produce 20 a year. That is the equivalent of what LG and Sony have been doing.

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post #1567 of 10549 Old 08-28-2010, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

You are right that supply is a concern. Comments from the Korean press indicate that Samsung is only able to supply about half of industry demand right now. It likely makes more sense to try and fulfill demand from the handset industry before releasing an OLED based tablet.

However, you are wrong about the pricing. The pricing of the LG and Sony OLED TV's have no relation to Samsung's cost structure. LG and Sony have been using tiny R&D fabs with little capacity to produce those TV's versus the Samsung commercial 4.5G fab which is running full tilt right now at good yields. The pricing still wont be equivalent to LCD pricing, but we are no longer talking about a 10x price premium. Samsung is selling millions of 4" Super AMOLED screens in their Galaxy smartphones and the move to a 7" display wouldnt be much of a stretch.

Imagine the price of a car if GM could only produce 20 a year. That is the equivalent of what LG and Sony have been doing.

Slacker

I believe the yields decrease exponentially as you increase screen size.

Although 4" to 7" seems like a "small" jump, you have to realize that a 7" screen is four times larger than a 3.5" screen.

I remember reading somewhere in this thread that a fab can have a 90% yield on a 2-3" screen but 25% yield on a 7" screen. Along with increased material costs, large screens aren't cost beneficial by any means.

You may be right. If Samsung uses OLED, then the tablet may cost less than $1000, but it'd still be around $600-800, which isn't competitive at all, considering the iPad has established itself as a great product. I think the proper price for the Samsung tablet is $450 or less.
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post #1568 of 10549 Old 08-28-2010, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by powertoold View Post

I believe the yields decrease exponentially as you increase screen size.

Although 4" to 7" seems like a "small" jump, you have to realize that a 7" screen is four times larger than a 3.5" screen.

I remember reading somewhere in this thread that a fab can have a 90% yield on a 2-3" screen but 25% yield on a 7" screen. Along with increased material costs, large screens aren't cost beneficial by any means.

You may be right. If Samsung uses OLED, then the tablet may cost less than $1000, but it'd still be around $600-800, which isn't competitive at all, considering the iPad has established itself as a great product. I think the proper price for the Samsung tablet is $450 or less.


FWIW, I did a little bit of math and the move from a 4" OLED costing $30 with 100% yields to a 7" OLED at 25% yields would mean that the latter display would cost $360.

Of course I dont believe that SMD would think about producing 7" displays for a flagship product if the yields were at 25%. I would note two things though. One is the move from ~2.6" production to 4" production over the last year. The second is that the total production from Samsung's fab has stabalized at about 3 million 3" equivalents for the last nine months. Both datapoints suggest that yields have become very good on existing displays.

I will say thought that it would seem to make more sense to launch a large display on a less visible product. They dont have much capacity to devote to larger displays and they could work out any potential problems before launching something like an Android tablet.

IFA should be interesting. We'll likely get both the Samsung tablet as well as the LG large screen OLED....though the latter definitely wont be for commercial production in the near future.

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post #1569 of 10549 Old 08-30-2010, 08:59 AM
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post #1570 of 10549 Old 08-30-2010, 09:55 PM
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Looks like it would make a nice computer monitor

Too bad it's just a prototype, I wonder how much the retail version would cost.

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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post #1571 of 10549 Old 08-31-2010, 04:17 PM
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1 arm + 1 leg + first issue of DNA co-mingling

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post #1572 of 10549 Old 08-31-2010, 07:17 PM
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That LG 31" is a beauty. Amazing how thin that monitor is incredible. I would love to own it for PC use!
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post #1573 of 10549 Old 09-02-2010, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Based on chi mei innolux's only 5.5G TFT fab in the industry, the optimal size possible is 32". Let's see the pricing for samsung"s tablet and specs since everyone now are ipad wannabes laptops are natural progression from handsets nonethess and years before desktop adoption, not to mention TVs.

Hence the speculation ends:

Samsung GALAXY Tab (GT-P1000) Product Specifications

Network
2.5G (GSM/ GPRS/ EDGE) : 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900 MHz

3G (HSUPA 5.76Mbps, HSDPA7.2 Mbps) : 900 / 1900 / 2100 MHz

OS
Android 2.2 (Froyo)

Display
7.0 inch TFT-LCD, WSVGA (1024 x 600)

Processor
Cortex A8 1.0GHz Application Processor with PowerVR SGX540
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post #1574 of 10549 Old 09-02-2010, 04:36 PM
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These 31 inch LG sets look really good, I would love to see them in person

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnRYScqogF0
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post #1575 of 10549 Old 09-03-2010, 05:07 AM
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This is the first report I have seen of an actual price and shipment date for the 31" OLED from LG....March 2011 and around $9000.

http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/09...arch-for-6000/

LG's fab is simply too small to support large scale OLED TV production. Nor do they have the experience that SMD has in improving yields in large scale commercial production.

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post #1576 of 10549 Old 09-03-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

This is the first report I have seen of an actual price and shipment date for the 31" OLED from LG....March 2011 and around $9000.

http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2010/09...arch-for-6000/

LG's fab is simply too small to support large scale OLED TV production. Nor do they have the experience that SMD has in improving yields in large scale commercial production.

Slacker

Looks like they are planning on using their 5.5 gen plant to produce these, if it goes online in 2011 we might see larger (37-50 inch) production panels in 2012 or 2013

http://www.oled-display.net/lg-elect...ed-in-mid-2011
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post #1577 of 10549 Old 09-04-2010, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

This is the first report I have seen of an actual price and shipment date for the 31" OLED from LG....March 2011 and around $9000.
Slacker

Guess I best start saving now.
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post #1578 of 10549 Old 09-04-2010, 06:45 PM
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Any progress regarding printable OLED tech?
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post #1579 of 10549 Old 09-05-2010, 05:52 AM
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Guess I best start saving now.

ROFL.... Me too! Though if it's £6,000, and LG decides to sell in the US, I'm sure it would be $6,000 or less. Sony's XEL-1 sold for $2,500 here, and at least £2,500 in the UK.... It would likely cost $9,000 if one imported from the UK! 100Hz anyone!

EDIT:
Sounds like the 31" should be priced at about $3,999. In which case, I will be buying one in May 2011!

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post #1580 of 10549 Old 09-05-2010, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by remush View Post

Looks like they are planning on using their 5.5 gen plant to produce these, if it goes online in 2011 we might see larger (37-50 inch) production panels in 2012 or 2013

http://www.oled-display.net/lg-elect...ed-in-mid-2011

If I hear it correctly then at 0:55 in this IFA video, George Mead (TV Marketing Manager at LG Electronics) says something like "50 inch by this time next year". It's hard to understand what exactly he is saying though.

Also interesting: the 31" OLED TV can be used with passive 3D glasses!
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post #1581 of 10549 Old 09-05-2010, 03:33 PM
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I would not be an early adopter of this kind of display. The technology has inherent risks involved for the buyer that are impossible to control by the manufacturers at this point. The red, green, and blue segments of the display wear at different rates and cut lumens at unpredictable rates and will result in both color saturation problems and wicked burn in issues. This is very very bad for both TV and PC uses. If for instance a relatively cost effective display at $3000 loses 50% of it's brightness over 5 years and the blue segment loses at 150% speed the red at 100% and green at 120% then conceivably you would have to recalibrate your display pretty much all the time. After the elements hit 50% loss at 5 years do they nose dive at that point? At 7yrs do you hit 25% of the lumens you had at year one? I don't think these questions have been answered very well yet if at all.
Manufacturers wouldn't mind though since they can just sell you another TV after 5 years and be happy. (and rich)
I believe the attempts to even out the bightness degradation of the different color elements by building in size differences and controlling lumen output independently per color is like throwing a dart at a dartboard and hoping to get close to a target.
I think realistically manufacturers will come to better solve these issues as we near 2015 but in 2011-2012 on the brand new 40"+ TV's people will be throwing their money in the garbage IMHO. But please do buy one and let me know how bad the burn in is after a couple years and how shot to hell the "3d" effect becomes xD

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post #1582 of 10549 Old 09-05-2010, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ferro View Post


Also interesting: the 31" OLED TV can be used with passive 3D glasses!

It just has a polarizer at the front



In any case, OLED is the ideal choice for 3D due to the absence of cross-talk
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post #1583 of 10549 Old 09-06-2010, 09:36 AM
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Here's the real future of HT displays!

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/06/c...sion-still-no/

Imagine an "80 inch" 1080p OLED display right in front of your eyes!
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post #1584 of 10549 Old 09-06-2010, 12:44 PM
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Glad to see they have implemented it


I'm actually looking forward to S3D enabled designer eyewear with embedded transparent OLED (TOLED) with stacked RGB sub-pixels. Better yet, contact lenses with TOLED layer.

http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thu...-margiela.jpeg

http://www.instablogsimages.com/imag...AQUOt_1333.jpg
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post #1585 of 10549 Old 09-06-2010, 01:45 PM
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IIRC, CRTs were rated at 7 years to half brightness (at which point they were considered EOL), although in my experience that certainly was a pessimistic estimate. And certainly, uneven wear of phosphors/light elements is not new to OLED. It can be compensated for.

Regardless, it is a product in development. We should not expect immediate perfection, nothing is put on the market in its most mature form. To point out that it has flaws is the same as pointing out that early TV was crude and only in B&W. Improvements will come. I think the main thing is, manufacturers can see that the technology holds promise for eventual low cost, low power consumption and great performance.

I suspect in 10-20 years, the main space lighting technology will be LED and OLED.

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post #1586 of 10549 Old 09-06-2010, 05:31 PM
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Actually when OLED is released, it'll be superior to its predecessors from day one, which PDP and LCD failed to do.
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post #1587 of 10549 Old 09-07-2010, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Actually when OLED is released, it'll be superior to its predecessors from day one, which PDP and LCD failed to do.

You haven't forgotten about Sony's XEL-1 already have you? That product has the best black level and motion of any consumer flat panel to date (save for the PVM-740). If you can't find a XEL-1, you could always pick up the professional PVM-740 for a cool $3,300!
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post #1588 of 10549 Old 09-07-2010, 03:34 AM
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Samsung updates on AMOLED displays

Samsung (or actually Lee Woo-Jong, SMD's marketing VP) is giving us some interesting updates on their AMOLED displays and production plants. So first of all, they expect the new 5.5-Gen plant to start mass producing in July 2011. The new plant will increase Samsung's AMOLED capacity ten-fold: from 3 million displays a month to 30 million (assuming all displays made in the new plant will be around 3").


OLED production at SMD photo

Samsung also says that they now expect AMOLED screens shipments to reach 700 million by 2015 (in May, they said it'll be 600).

Samsung also said that any maker can use Super-AMOLED displays - they're not exclusive to Samsung Electronics, as reported before. In fact, Samsung claims that even the Galaxy S does not get priority over other customers and it was also effected by the shortage in displays. Samsung couldn't even provide Galaxy S phones to their own employees. This is somewhat strange as we know that Samsung managed to ship over a million Galaxy S phones in only 45 days, while HTC had major supply issues...

Source WSJ
via OLED-Info
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post #1589 of 10549 Old 09-07-2010, 11:46 PM
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It's confirmed that the Galaxy Tab is using an LCD display, and not an AMOLED.

As for the LG prototype and such, it's pretty exciting, but it should go without saying that sales will be infinitesimal at those prices, which aligns well with production capacity.

Before we get excited about a 50-inch display, ask yourself if you're willing to pay $15,000 for one in 2012. Because that's pretty much what you'd be looking at. A good 50-inch LCD or plasma is already well under 10% of that.

OLED is supposed to be cheaper than existing stuff in some theoretical future. But that future really feels closer to 10 years away. And I say that in light of the LG announcement.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1590 of 10549 Old 09-08-2010, 05:05 AM
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Here is an article that describes Samsung's plans with respect to OLED TV development.

http://www.olednet.com/focus/focus_b...398&mem_stat=0

I think this table is of particular interest. You can see why a 31" TV in a 4.5G fab makes little economic sense. The yields would have to be 100% to even get two TV panels per substrate. Any defects in the substrate and that immediately falls to just one panel per substrate while you could instead produce nearly 150 3" displays for the handset market (at ~$15 a piece).



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