OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 71 - AVS Forum
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post #2101 of 10542 Old 04-29-2011, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

BTW Samsung did not say it will be PRICE competitive. OLED has a good chance of competing in TV with 200% premium in 2014, looking at the 2011 TV model pricing structure.

What else would they have been referring to? OLEDs are ALREADY better than LCD so what other than price competition could they have meant? And the other link I provided had LG predicting OLEDs would be cheaper than LCD.
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post #2102 of 10542 Old 04-29-2011, 02:55 PM
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For those interested, here is the Engadget review of the Samsung Galaxy S2, a new phone that uses an SAMOLED+ OLED screen.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/28/s...y-s-ii-review/

A snippet from it:

Quote:


The Galaxy S II's screen is nothing short of spectacular. Blacks are impenetrable, colors pop out at you, and viewing angles are supreme. This would usually be the part where we'd point out that qHD (960 x 540) resolution is fast becoming the norm among top-tier smartphones and that the GSII's 800 x 480 is therefore a bit behind the curve, but frankly, we don't care. With a screen as beautiful as this, such things pale into insignificance. And we use that verb advisedly -- whereas the majority of LCDs quickly lose their luster when you tilt them away from center, color saturation and vibrancy on the Galaxy S II remain undiminished. It is only at extreme angles that you'll notice some discoloration, but that's only if you're looking for it and takes nothing away from the awe-inspiring experience of simply using this device.

Whether you're pushing it to its limits with movie watching or just tamely browsing the web, the Super AMOLED Plus panel inside the Galaxy S II never fails to remind you that it's simply better than almost everything else that's out there. For an instructive example of the contrast on offer here, take a look at our recent post regarding the LG Optimus Big's upcoming launch in Korea. The pattern on that handset's white back was so subtle on our desktop monitor that we completely missed it, whereas when we looked at the same image on the GSII, it looked clear as day. Maybe that doesn't speak too highly of the monitors we're working with, but it underlines the supremacy of the display Samsung has squeezed into the Galaxy S II.

We'd even go so far as to say it's better than the iPhone 4's screen, purely because, at 4.3 inches, it gives us so much more room to work with. It's almost impossible to split the two up in terms of quality of output, they're both top notch. Notably, however, that was also true of Samsung's original Super AMOLED display, the one that graced the 4-inch Galaxy S, and by now you must be wondering if there's actually anything significant enough in the new S-AMOLED technology to justify appending that "Plus" to its name. The short answer is yes, and it's all in the pixels.

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post #2103 of 10542 Old 04-29-2011, 03:23 PM
 
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So when can I expect to buy a 55" for $1500?
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post #2104 of 10542 Old 04-29-2011, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by GSDTrainer View Post

So when can I expect to buy a 55" for $1500?

My guess is 2015.
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post #2105 of 10542 Old 04-29-2011, 06:11 PM
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How do you do that projection with G5.5 ramping up only now and LG's supposedly 31" screen at $9000 in 2011? Do you know what is the annual cost down or optimal cut of G8 or G5.5? Or you're just saying it because u couldn't care less when 2015 is here? I don't even think we'll get 70" LCD at $1500 in 2015 even when sharp's G10 selling one at $3000 TODAY

BTW I have a gentleman bet with rogo that we will see $5000 32" next Christmas. We will likely be able to remind each other in 18 months I can tell u how I get that projection.

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Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post

What else would they have been referring to? OLEDs are ALREADY better than LCD so what other than price competition could they have meant? And the other link I provided had LG predicting OLEDs would be cheaper than LCD.

So your basis is that in order to be competitive it must be cheaper? And you stay in high cost US? (I don't) Just from you believing LG's word so unreservely we can already guess you are probably 25 or below
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post #2106 of 10542 Old 04-30-2011, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post

My guess is 2015.

My borderline certain is "not a chance in the universe of that happening in 2015."

That said, I look forward to seeing this Galaxy II S display. It sounds awesome.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #2107 of 10542 Old 04-30-2011, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post

My guess is 2015.

That isn't a guess, it is pure wishful thinking.

It is dubious if we will even have 55" OLED in 2015. If we do, it will certainly be $5000+.
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post #2108 of 10542 Old 04-30-2011, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by guidryp View Post

That isn't a guess, it is pure wishful thinking.

It is dubious if we will even have 55" OLED in 2015. If we do, it will certainly be $5000+.

For wishful thinking it seems a lot of people are similarly-minded to me.

http://www.google.com/search?q=oled+...&client=safari

Including Barry Young:

http://www.oled-tv.asia/when-can-ole...ft-technology/
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post #2109 of 10542 Old 04-30-2011, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post

For wishful thinking it seems a lot of people are similarly-minded to me.

Including Barry Young:

http://www.oled-tv.asia/when-can-ole...ft-technology/

So? He doesn't work for anyone producing OLED TV's. He is just a promoter parroting other info. Promoters always give optimistic projections.

The manufacturers making predictions 5 years ago, predicted OLED TVs common in 5 years. If their predictions were correct, we would already have OLED TVs.

LGs famous quote for 2016 also said they would have a 20"+ TV in 2010.

They failed to deliver on that. If they can't even predict one year in the future what makes you think they can nail estimates 5 or 6 years in the future?

Absolutely none of the past estimates have worked out, things like SED get pushed for years, only to collapse. OLED won't collapse because multiple companies are working on it. But it really isn't even on the market yet in real TVs.

To go from not on the market to priced at $1500 for 55" in 4 years isn't just wishful thinking, it is being completely out of touch with reality.

First they have to make it to market, then they price can start coming down at a reasonable rate. Expect similar to they Plasma dropped in price over time. It wasn't 2 years from hitting the market to $2000, it was more like 5 years.

It looks like 2012 will be the first year for 40" OLED TVS to hit the marke, count on 5 more years to semi competitive.. So maybe a 55" for $1500 in 2018...

I would like to have a OLED TV, the characteristics are great for a TV, but wishing won't making it appear faster. It will get here when it gets hear and the track record for these things indicate we always get optimistic projections from the manufacturers. Just ask Canon about SED.
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post #2110 of 10542 Old 04-30-2011, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoherty972
So I guess u are misled by this guy Barry Young. This is a name I will remember 18 months later for misleading "marketing" info.

It is more likely that we will see 10m OLED tablet than 2m OLED TV next year. And 10m OLED tablet is already a stretch. 5.5G fab is more suitable for 32" TV. I'm hopeful for 2012 ramp of 8G but mass production of >32" TV is definitely unlikely in next 18 months.
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post #2111 of 10542 Old 05-01-2011, 08:59 AM
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The Olympus XZ-1 photo-camera - review - has a 3inch OLED monitor, Click for larger imago and other views.

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post #2112 of 10542 Old 05-02-2011, 08:05 AM
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Nice-looking camera... OLEDs are going to be in pretty much everything.
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post #2113 of 10542 Old 05-02-2011, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

So I guess u are misled by this guy Barry Young. This is a name I will remember 18 months later for misleading "marketing" info.

It is more likely that we will see 10m OLED tablet than 2m OLED TV next year. And 10m OLED tablet is already a stretch. 5.5G fab is more suitable for 32" TV. I'm hopeful for 2012 ramp of 8G but mass production of >32" TV is definitely unlikely in next 18 months.

I think the 5.5 gen fabs are going to be used primarily for cellphone and tablet-sized screens, but I agree they could be used for some smaller TVs as well. The gen 8 fabs coming from LG and Samsung are where the TVs will come into play I think, starting mid to late next year.
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post #2114 of 10542 Old 05-02-2011, 12:26 PM
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More on this discussion, an article from June last year:

http://www.plusplasticelectronics.co...011-14912.aspx

Quote:
MBraun, a supplier of processing tools to leading display firms, reveals that recent orders suggest its customers are on track to deliver commercial OLED televisions to the market in 2011.

The German company provides automation and production tools to OLED display makers including Samsung and LG, which have reportedly been ramping up production for OLEDs recently, as covered in +Plastic Electronics Volume 2, issue 6.

Announced scale-up plans have been for smaller screens though, suitable for smartphones and cameras. Samsung announcing its new facilities will be able to produce 30 million 3-inch screens per month, for instance.

However, MBraun's orders from the electronics manufacturers suggest that they have television manufacturing in mind.


Scale-up solved

One of the barriers to the television market has been increasing screen sizes in production. Display makers have been reticent about revealing how this has been overcome. However, MBraun sales manager for flat panel applications, Daniel Karecovsky, says that the solutions have been found.

Karecovsky remarks: 'The job of scaling up is one for our customers, which they are adapting to currently available equipment. These steps have already been taken, to produce screens up to 42" in size.'

LG is increasing the availability of its 15EL 9500, a 15-inch display (already available in some parts of Europe) in 2010, while Samsung is believed to be ahead of its South Korean competitor in terms of commercial OLED development.

And Karecovsky suggests that the firms will be ready to sustain significant manufacturing for OLED televisions next year too.

'We know that they're currently putting they're[sic] systems in place to manufacture televisions on a large scale, although there are still some improvements to be made,' he adds.
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post #2115 of 10542 Old 05-02-2011, 03:38 PM
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"MBraun, a supplier of processing tools to leading display firms, reveals that recent orders suggest its customers are on track to deliver commercial OLED televisions to the market in 2011."

What's significant about this is that no one is on track to deliver commercial OLED televisions in 2010. And that's significant because this is the kind of hype suppliers always put out, but almost never yields any reality.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #2116 of 10542 Old 05-02-2011, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post


I think the 5.5 gen fabs are going to be used primarily for cellphone and tablet-sized screens, but I agree they could be used for some smaller TVs as well. The gen 8 fabs coming from LG and Samsung are where the TVs will come into play I think, starting mid to late next year.

Yes but 8G fab won't be online until AT LEAST 2H12 for Samsung. And that is ONLY if the 5.5G fab is a success. 8G is not a certainty though it is likely IMHO.

As for LG, though it talks alot but the fact is that it has a 3.5G fab and supposedly ramping 4.5G, but Samsung has >90% market share. Go figure.

Industry promoters etc can claim 100" OLED for all I care but if the fabs are not pumping, they will have to spew screens out of their a** I hope Barry Young has a big a**
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post #2117 of 10542 Old 05-03-2011, 05:34 AM
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Yes but 8G fab won't be online until AT LEAST 2H12 for Samsung. And that is ONLY if the 5.5G fab is a success. 8G is not a certainty though it is likely IMHO.


I don't think the 5.5 gen is even close to being in doubt. Samsung is already selling as many cellphone-sized OLEDs as they can make and the demand is still far outstripping supply.
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post #2118 of 10542 Old 05-03-2011, 07:20 AM
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You answered your own question here. Samsung is not going to sell 360m OLED mobile display next year.

So OLED tablet success will be important unless Samsung want to try selling quantity $5000 32" TV

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post

And Samsung is producing 3 million cellphone-sized AMOLEDs per month now and the already-paid-for and newly-built gen 5.5 factory is coming online in the next two months and will be ramping that production by a factor of 10 (with slight delays from the Japan earthquake/tsunami since some needed equipment shipments are delayed). So they'll be making 30 million/month. And that's just Samsung, not counting LG, AUO, etc who are also in the OLED game.

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post #2119 of 10542 Old 05-03-2011, 01:55 PM
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I didn't realize I asked a question in the section you quoted. :-)

But, be that as it may, what cellphone manufacturers wouldn't switch to OLED if given the chance (by Samsung's (and LG's) large ramping of gen 5.5 OLED)? I'd think any increase in production will be snatched up as greedily as it is now. And I agree tablets will need to start using OLEDs as well (which I believe they will).
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post #2120 of 10542 Old 05-06-2011, 07:46 PM
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well the first couple generations of cosumer sized oled television
screens ain't going to be cheap.

remember when plasmas first came out, they were $15-20k

that's where the waiting comes in, when does the price drop
low enough that most people can afford them

crazy people on this forum will be the only ones willing to spend that kind of dough

neflixis our nemesis
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post #2121 of 10542 Old 05-08-2011, 05:53 PM
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Probably a ridiculous question at this point, but can we expect 56" 3840x2160 panels soon, or the OLED technology still has problems with very big screens?

Ipsa scientia potestas est
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post #2122 of 10542 Old 05-08-2011, 06:41 PM
 
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Probably a ridiculous question at this point, but can we expect 56" 3840x2160 panels soon, or the OLED technology still has problems with very big screens?


Ya totally ridiculous, but it did make me stop and think.

+1
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post #2123 of 10542 Old 05-08-2011, 08:43 PM
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post #2124 of 10542 Old 05-09-2011, 08:51 AM
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I see that the resolution he's asking for is a 2x2 1920x1080 screen (Four 1080 HD signals on the same screen). I guess I'm wondering the following:

1) What use is it as a TV if no one broadcasts in that resolution?

2) Do any monitors do that resolution now, and if so what are they used for (broadcast television production, etc)?
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post #2125 of 10542 Old 05-09-2011, 11:14 AM
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3840x2160 would have potential value right now for gaming or as a dual-use PC monitor. The resolution would ensure that lower resolution 1080P content could scale easily--just treat a 2x2 pixel square as a single pixel.

In the longer term, I believe HDMI 1.4 works with 3840x2160, so devices that display static images in a slideshow could take advantage of the extra resolution (and static images are where it'd be most noticeable). It's even possible that 1080P content could be upscaled to 3840x2160 in much the same manner 480i DVD content is upscaled to 1080P right now.

That said, it'd be a pretty niche product at best.
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post #2126 of 10542 Old 05-09-2011, 11:25 AM
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Displays that show off higher resolutions than existing video sources are already useful today. It's not a massive gain, but it's a gain with the right scaling electronics. And for passive 3-D, the potential is gigantic.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #2127 of 10542 Old 05-09-2011, 12:46 PM
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could movies be recorded or transferred like br to this resolution?

neflixis our nemesis
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post #2128 of 10542 Old 05-09-2011, 03:19 PM
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See the Red One movie camera.

Reunite Pangea!
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post #2129 of 10542 Old 05-09-2011, 05:01 PM
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Check out this thread for quad HD:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19879679
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post #2130 of 10542 Old 05-16-2011, 11:48 PM
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From the WSJ 5/17/2011:

"So far, researchers haven't figured out a way to deposit the organic material over the large surface of a TV-sized screen with the speed required to build millions of units. "That is the most critical issue for OLED TV mass production," Mr. Ro said.

In the 1990s, display industry researchers were grappling with a similar problem in LCDs. At that time, the only way to evenly disperse liquid crystal was to let it seep in vapor form between two sealed pieces of glass, a time-consuming process.

At the 2001 SID meeting, International Business Machines Corp. researchers unveiled a dispersal method for liquid crystal that became known as "one drop fill." The idea revolutionized LCD production and, coupled with advances in the size of glass, made possible cost-efficient production of large-sized LCD-TVs.

The search for a similar advance to produce bigger OLED screens faces a major technical constraint. While only one coating of liquid crystal is needed in an LCD, an OLED screen actually takes three organic materials, one each for red, green and blue, the colors from which all other colors are formed on video displays.

The difficulty lies in aligning the OLED material so that colors are accurate across a large area. Just like liquid crystal was back in the 1990s, OLED material today is deposited in vapor form in a vacuum across a substrate and masks are used to align the three layers of material.

That technique works fine on screens the size of cellphones, but the masks tend to sag unevenly when pulled across larger surfaces. The result is that the OLED material is distributed imprecisely, creating mashed up colors or dead spots on a screen. "Everybody is working on this, all the big names," Mr. Ro says.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...#ixzz1Mad2jaHo (subscription required)

So it's a newspaper article, and it's wholly and highly incomplete. He notes this is "the biggest problem" but it's obviously not the only problem. We've discussed the voltage problem as well. it's important to understand -- no matter how much you want this technology to become real -- that until these manufacturing issues are solved, there will not be large OLED TVs. And while we'd all like the problems to be solved soon, they might not be solved for years, if ever. FED technology had manufacturing issues that were always right around the corner until decades of research and billions of dollars were just abandoned. Plasmas nearly suffered a similar fate (less investment, but very close to 'never happening').

It's also true that absent the aforementioned revolutionary idea in 2001, maybe giant LCD TVs don't happen. Or they don't happen for somewhat more years.

Not every engineering problem is solvable. And one thing that's clear from this article, is that whoever the reporter talked to didn't even bother mentioning nonsense like "ink jet style printing" of large OLEDs which has been much hyped and never developed into anything.

What I am saying -- as I've said before -- is that you need to actually hear about the breakthrough in manufacturing or else you're not going to see the big OLED TVs. And seeing a billion OLED screens for cell phones is not some kind of indicator that the TVs are coming.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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