Official SED NEWS & Technology Thread Part 2! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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This is Part 2: continuing discussion of SED technical issues

Part 1 is Here

Respectfully request that you limit your posts to the technical discussions of SED technology

and do it without bashing or bickering please

Please take the high road in every post
Please do not quote or respond to problematic posts: report them to mods to handle
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post #2 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 02:07 PM
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I think we've all had a chance to convey our own views and I'm fine with getting the thread back on topic which was to be the Official thread for SED related news.
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Thanks MarkRubin.
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post #4 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 02:24 PM
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WHAT THE.....!?!?!?!?

Ok so I assume this thread is for actual news rather than bickering and "witty" comments?

So who's going to go through and get all the actual valuable info from that other thread?!

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #5 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19 View Post

So who's going to go through and get all the actual valuable info from that other thread?!

Just realized I might be able to help a bit on that front.... I've got a collection/summary of links etc.... give me a minute.

Some of these links are old so forgive me if they don't all work:

SED and HD-DVD news

http://www.eetimes.com/at/lae/news/OEG20031205S0034

http://www.eet.com/sys/news/showArti...cleId=47205034

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/...RSS,RSS,00.asp

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index....31;fp;2;fpid;1

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/101804ceatec/

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_094933.html

http://www.monitor4u.com/english/new...div=New%20Tech

http://news.com.com/Carbon+TVs+to+ed...l?tag=nefd.top

http://www.canon.com/technology/deta...e/sed_display/

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/index.cfm...view&news=4428

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000150026155/

Technical Paper

A PQ comparison of PDP vs. SED vs. LCD. Left : PDP Middle : SED Right : LCD







From the From the Consumer Technology Retail Week (CTRW) newsletter:

Quote:


Toshiba announced it would have SED (Surface Conduction Electron-Emitter Display) displays in Q1 2006. Toshiba demonstrated a 36-inch, 720p SED display at CES, but said its goal is to come out of the gate with a 50-inch 1080p panel in Q1 2006 and price it competitively to a similarly sized plasma or LCD display.

Toshiba developed SED with Canon, and the SED technology along with HD DVD will be a lynchpin to Toshiba's strategy going forward.

Toshiba claims SED delivers better blacks than plasma or LCD and can offer and faster response times that will eliminate high-motion artifacts. The latter appeared especially true on Toshiba's demo unit at CES.

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com.hk/neasia/000003

Quote:


SED panels are entering the TV market. SED image quality is attracting considerable interest; meanwhile, Canon and Toshiba are confident about their cost competitiveness...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/bettersan.htm

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/strangesan.htm

http://toob.typepad.com/content/2005..._start_vo.html

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...241339353.html

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/001588

Quote:


The performance of the SED panel exhibited by the two firms this time was significantly higher than that of the panel shown in October 2004. The contrast ratio (dim environment), for example, has been improved from 8600:1 to 100k:1, and peak luminance from 300cd/m2 to 400cd/m2. As a member of Toshiba's staff explained, "We will not begin volume production with the display performance of this panel. Display performance will be improved even further by that time. We expect to begin volume production as planned in August 2005." The developers are clearly confident that panel performance will be improved and volume production launched on schedule.

Estimated SED production:



Quote:


Canon to Invest 20.8 Bln Yen in Flat Panel R&D Center (Update1)
Aug. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Canon Inc., the world's biggest maker of photocopiers, will invest 20.8 billion yen ($189 million) to open a research center next July to develop cheaper production technology for flat panel displays used in televisions.

The center will have 150 employees and be set up near an existing factory in Hiratsuka, about 50 kilometers (31 miles) south of Tokyo, Canon said in a faxed release. Research will focus on surface conduction electron emitter, or SED, displays, which Tokyo-based Canon has been developing with Toshiba Corp.

``Price competition for displays is becoming more severe and we need to develop equipment that can cut costs,'' Canon President Fujio Mitarai said at a news conference.

Canon and Toshiba are investing 180 billion yen over two years to mass produce the displays, which face competition from liquid crystal and plasma display televisions that have been on the market longer. Toshiba is phasing out production of plasma TVs to make room for the SEDs, and rivals such as Fujitsu Ltd. and NEC Corp. have sold their flat-panel business as prices decline.

Trial output of the new panels started at Canon's Hiratsuka this month as scheduled and ``is doing well,'' Mitarai said today, without giving details.

Mass production of SEDs will start at 15,000 panels a month in early 2007 and increase to as many as 75,000 displays by the end of that year, Canon and Toshiba said when they announced the investment plan last September.

and:

http://www.prad.de/en/news/shownews398.html

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

Quote:


SED Manufacturing Methods Revealed

SID 2005 offered a host of new technology announcements, including the method for manufacturing SED panels, as well as new backlight technologies for LCD panels.

At last a portion of the technologies used to manufacture surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) panels, currently under development by Canon Inc of Japan and Toshiba Corp of Japan, has been revealed. The joint venture between the two, SED Inc of Japan, presented a paper on manufacturing methods used for SED panel electron emitters, at the Society for Information Display (SID) 2005 display conference and exhibition held in Boston from May 22 to 27, 2005. The paper stressed the cost competitiveness of the technology. Volume production of panels was slated to start in August 2005, while Toshiba has made the decision to site a volume production fab at its Himeji Plant, to start operation in January 2007.


The SID 2005 event also offered a host of new technology announcements related to liquid crystal display (LCD) panels, which are experiencing steady growth in the flat-screen TV market. A variety of approaches were covered for issues such as power consumption, motion visibility and gradation characteristics. According to one engineer at an LCD panel manufacturer, "Now that SED panels are almost here, with their high image quality evaluation, the bar has been raised quite a bit in the development competition." A number of technologies dealing with expansion of the range of color reproduction and integration of peripheral components, two areas where LCD panels excel, were also presented (Fig 1).



Participants also showed considerable interest in next-generation technologies such as bendable displays and a 40-inch organic electroluminescent (EL) panel.



Electron Emitter

The strong points of the SED panel are more than the excellent image quality, as evidenced by the high contrast ratio and motion visibility on a par with that of cathode ray tubes (CRT). Canon and Toshiba, the two key developers, appear confident that SEDs are fully cost competitive with other displays already in the flat-screen TV market, such as LCD and plasma display panels (PDP). The two firms agree that the manufacturing method to be used in volume production is the major reason for this - which is why so many engineers were keenly interested in the announcements on SED panel manufacturing made at SID 2005.



The core of the manufacturing method used for the electron emitter is the forming of an electron emitter gap, without using semiconductor processes such as photolithography.

The electron emitter releases the electrons that cause the phosphors to emit light, and is a key component in determining SED panel performance. There is one emitter per sub-pixel, making it equivalent to the thin-film transistor (TFT) in LCD panels. It has been known for some time that the electron emitter has a tiny nm-sized gap to release electrons.

This time the presenters showed a cross-section of the electron emitter, revealing that a tiny gap only 4nm to 6nm in size is formed in the carbon deposited on the surface of the device film (Fig 2). The method used to manufacture this gap was also revealed, as a combination of two processes: conductance forming and conductance activation (Fig 3).

In conductance forming, pulsed voltage is used to create tiny gaps in the PdO (palladium oxide) device film printed onto the electrodes using inkjet technology. Organic gas is then introduced into the process chamber while pulsed voltage is continued in a process called conductance activation. These processes are executed continuously in a vacuum.

Conductance forming creates sub-micron class gaps in the device film, and conductance activation causes these gaps to reach the 4nm to 6nm range. Conductance activation causes the gaps to narrow because, according to Eiji Yamaguchi, senior general manager, Product Development & Design Center, Product Technology Headquarters at SED Inc, "The organic gas breaks down under hot CVD, producing carbon molecules, which are deposited on the surface of the device film." In other words, conductance activation creates a carbon thinfilm, as shown in the cross-sectional photograph of the electron emitter. This thinfilm is only 30nm to 50nm thick.



Deposition, Evaporation

Conductance activation creates the narrow 4nm to 6nm gaps, defining the characteristics of the electron emitter required for use in the SED panel. The narrower the gap, the greater the electric field density around the gap when drive voltage is applied, and the greater the device current (tunnel current through the gap), as shown in Fig 3b.

The higher device current means that, of the total, relatively more discharge current flows to the phosphors. According to SED Inc's Yamaguchi, "While the device current isn't zero prior to activation, it is extremely low, and there is essentially no discharge current."

Activation causes the device current to increase to a certain level, where it stabilizes. In other words, the gaps narrow because of activation, but finally settle down to a certain size, which happens to be 4nm to 6nm in this case. Yamaguchi explained that this happens because the deposition and evaporation of the carbon molecules reaches a balanced state.

This balanced state can be controlled by organic gas concentration and the voltage input to the device film. By controlling the equilibrium between deposition and evaporation, engineers can control the nm-size gaps. The firm has not disclosed details of the organic gas used for activation, but Katsumi Komiya, director, Product Technology Headquarters and deputy senior group executive at SED Inc pointed out, "It is not a special gas."

Cheap, as Promised

Now that some details of the manufacturing method are known, it can be seen that the glass substrate on the electron emitter side can be made with some technologies providing relatively low cost. Wiring patterns can be screen-printed onto the glass substrate, and then the device film formed with inkjet technology. Organic gas is introduced into the process chamber while the device film is conducting to create the gaps (Fig 3a).

SED Inc is confident about the manufacturing method. "No doubt engineers in the field thought we were making the electron emitters with photolithography or some other complex process. Probably few of them will believe that we can form nm-sized gaps, with good repeatability, using only simple processes like blowing a fuse. I think now that some of the details of the manufacturing process have been revealed, they'll understand how we can do it so cheaply," said SED Inc's Komiya.

The reactions of engineers to SED Inc's presentation seems to split into two major camps, one recognizing the intriguing points of the manufacturing method, and the other stressing that cost estimation, including yield, is simply impossible until volume production actually starts.

Creating the 4nm to 6nm gaps makes it possible to generate ample electrons from a low drive voltage of only about a dozen volts. The technology eliminates the need for a driver IC capable of withstanding high voltages, as is required with PDP. This fact also helps keep costs down.

Reliability

SED Inc also mentioned the characteristics of the latest electron emitter, such as the fact that the emission current achieves a density of 30mA/cm2 for an acceleration voltage of 10kV. The firm commented that the electron emission efficiency, which is the ratio of device current to emission current, has surpassed 3%. The prototype shown at CEATEC Japan 2004, held in October 2004, was said to be a bit over 1%.

Data on the reliability (life) of the electron emitter was also disclosed. Even after 60,000 hours of accelerated test, current density for the emission current dropped only 10%, backing up existing claims that the SED panel life will be determined by the phosphors, not the electron emitters.

Canon and Toshiba were planning to further improve brightness in preparation for panel volume production, hoping to achieve 500cd/m2 by the volume-production start date of August 2005. Recent prototypes already boasted a peak intensity of 400cd/m2. Researchers intended to achieve the improvement by enhancing the characteristics of the electron emitter. As Komiya explained, "We are making good progress identifying the process parameters that maximize device current."

The firm plans to start volume production for 50-inch class panels. "We will be installing equipment capable of manufacturing panels for 50-inch class sets into the Canon Hiratsuka Plant," revealed Komiya.


by Takuya Otani


Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #6 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 02:38 PM
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This is an old but good link on SED Manufacturing.

SED Manufacturing Methods Revealed
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post #7 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 03:33 PM
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Links Part 2


Quote:


They showed off some really hot 36-inch SED display prototypes, which besides registering an average of half the metered power consumption of similar sized LCD and plasma TVs, featured a totally independent viewing angles and a 100,000:1 contrast ratio. It was kind of crazy, when the screen went black it was like the whole panel disappeared.

Translated article:
http://translate.google.com/translat...5%2Fdg51%2Ehtm

These pics help illustrate the excellent off-axis viewing performance of SED:



The first pic shows the stage setup with an HD camera feed going to a plasma or LCD (not sure, the translation isn't clear) in the second pic and an SED in the third pic.




The article also has info about the Pioneer and Panasonic PDP 1080p prototypes that was hopefully closely translated and summarized here with additional SED info also.

SED:
- prototype screens are prone to light reflections
- should be better almost everywhere compared to LCD/plasma
- should even be superior in some aspects to CRT
- first displays will be 55"
- production being 2006, probably high prices
- mass production 2007, falling prices
-Canon is planning to also produce smaller SED computer monitors in late 06 at comparable to LCD prices

Panasonic 50" 1080p prototype:
- noticably worse shadow detail compared to 65" 1080p model
- noticably worse shadow detail compared to 50" 768p model
- release date still undecided

Pioneer 50" 1080p prototype:
- prototype can't use single side drive right now
- shadow detail etc almost similar to 5060
- red color needs some minor tweaking
- overall noticably better than the Panasonic 50" 1080p prototype
- release planned for soccer world cup 2006

Here's some nice pics illustrating the black level differences in the three technologies :P




http://videosystems.com/e-newsletters/SED_TV/

Popular Science have awarded the Canon/Toshiba SED technology with the "Best of What's New 2005 award"

http://www.hdbeat.com/2005/11/16/sed...-of-whats-new/

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679235p1.html





http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/08/s...-and-personal/

Quote:


The SED display sets were 32-inches showing a 720p pic, but the production units later this year will be 55-inches in full 1080p. Even with the the 720p source material during the 12-minute presentation, the SED picture rivaled, or even exceeded some of the 1080p displays we scanned this week. The demo highlighted features like brightness, contrast, depth and color. Probably the best way to describe something this visual is to think back to when you first saw HDTV. Remember the impact it had on you and the jump you saw in picture quality? That's what SED feels like; it's like making the jump from SDTV to HDTV all over again. It's that good.

SED manufacturing methods revealed:

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

There is an online SED (flash) video demo and an online (flash) interview with Canon's Director of Marketing.

"Also, according to Michael Zorich, Canon's Director of Marketing, SED's will first be available in Japan in limited quantities and then will be available throughout the world beginning in 2007... Another couple notes from Michael: screen size is virtually unlimited as long as they can maintain the integrity of the glass (think 100″+), SED has better viewing angles than any other display technology currently out there, and the first SED sets will be 55″ and native 1080p."

taken from
http://www.hdtvhelponline.com/blog/2...lash-demo.html
(full disclosure: my buddy runs the blog)

If you want to see an interview with Canon's Director of Marketing re: SED then use this link:
http://www.dlmag.com/video.php?type=...264384K_Stream

If you want to view Canon's SED demo then use this link:
http://www.dlmag.com/video.php?type=...264384K_Stream

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #8 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 03:35 PM
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Links Part 3

This from gaming site IGN's coverage re: SED and CES '06, three posts:

Quote:


"The best tech at the Consumer Electronics Show 2006 was Toshiba/Canon's SED television. The companies jointly debuted the new type of display, which is neither plasma nor LCD, at the big event, and everyone who saw it was pretty well amazed. On the first day of CES I found myself huddled together with a dozen others in a dark room that was illuminated only by three brightly lit 42" SEDs. The TVs, by the way, look exactly like the one below. A pretty spiffy design, actually. Note that these are prototypes:

I was prepared to be underwhelmed, to be honest. I had already seen so much at CES that was either "blah" or, worse, "meh." But to my surprise, I was astonished at the perfect picture these babies generate.

A really quickie TV breakdown. CRTs -- the big, boxy televisions of yesteryear -- are even by today's standards favored amongst videophiles because they have the best contrast ratios, which translates to deeper blacks and more vivid, realistic colors. Plasmas and LCDs lose about 200 pounds of physical TV, which is nice, but they have up until recently really lacked where contrast ratios and response times are concerned. To be specific, blacks on LCDs and plasmas tend to look almost gray and refresh rates -- especially on the latter -- can create a ghosting, blurring effect, which is bad. SED is a merging of CRT picture quality with plasma/LCD design -- what I like to call the very best of both worlds."

**

"The prototype SED displays on-hand at CES 2006 were absolutely spectacular. I'm going to separate individual words with periods in order to stress a point. Pay attention now because I hardly ever do this. SED. Is. The. Freakin'. Future.

Consider that my 50" Panasonic plasma -- which, by the way, I adore -- has a contrast ratio of 3000:1. Today's cutting-edge flat panels have upped the ratio to 4000:1. SEDs, by comparison, sport a contrast ratio of 100,000: 1. Not a typo. One-hundred thousand to one. The result? Blacks so deep that they look even better than any CRT I've seen. Toshiba/Canon showed us video designed to demonstrate the way in which SED handles grayscale situations. Even in dark environments, it's entirely possible to make out different degrees of blackness -- which is something that is rarely possible on LCD or plasma. For instance, a boat floated through a lake in darkness. Everything was black, but I could still clearly see the lake shimmering and reflecting, just as I could make out the boat. Faintly and realistically. I may as well have been there. Demonstrations showing off SED brightness, color and motion particulars were every bit as impressive.

I should note that every IGN editor I made watch the demo walked out of the room convinced that SED is the best thing ever. And it will be. This is serious tech and it's not going away. It's not a fad. It's not a niche. It's going to be big. Toshiba and Canon believe so strongly in SED that they have together invested nearly $4 billion into the next-generation display type. That's a lot of cash for a product that hasn't even hit retailers yet. The companies earlier this year formed SED, Inc. and have established a factory in western Japan to produce the TVs.

Neither Toshiba nor Canon would commit to a release time frame or price structure for SED at CES 2006. That said, the companies did note that SED sets will be available before the end of the year and reports abound suggest that the tech will be competitively priced against plasma and LCD.

Although the prototype displays I saw at CES were only 42" in size and running in 720p, the final sets will start at 55" and support 1080p. Hurray. If ever there was a TV to match the PS3, this will be it."

**

"I have to say that I wasn't overly impressed by much of what I saw at the show. Sure, there was a ton of cool technology, but almost all of it was to be expected so there was an almost total lack of surprises. Blu-ray and HD-DVD looked great, everyone's new plasmas and other digital sets looked better than last year's, and so on and so forth, but I expected every second of it.

Really, the only two things that surprised and impressed me were Toshiba's SED demo and Dolby's 14.1 concept clip. The SED demonstration was simply astonishing and it's easily the highlight of the show for me. I can't wait to see these things when they go into production and actually have increased image quality over what I've seen."

Quote:


February 23, 2006 - Satoshi Niikura, executive vice president at Toshiba digital media network division and general manager of the TV division, stated yesterday "The launch of SED TVs, planned for this spring, is likely to be delayed, as we are in trouble purchasing panels sufficiently due to production is still in the pilot stage,- according to a report from DisplayBank. Canon plans to have its own branded SED TV, which would initiate Canon's participation in the TV business. Since the only source of SED panels is SED Inc., the Toshiba-Canon JV founded to do the manufacturing, Canon's TV introduction is also delayed.

Video clip:

http://www.dlmag.com/video.php?type=...264384K_Stream

http://tvs.consumerelectronicsnet.co...e.jsp?id=36718

http://today.reuters.com/business/ne...oryID=nT343273

http://www.monitor4u.co.kr/english/n...=1253&contdiv=

Quote:


Fujii describes the SED TV''s picture quality as "having more potential than any other TV panel technology," and expects the pricing to receive "a 10-20% premium over the price of PDP and LCD TVs." On the other hand, to realize a panel with the SED''s genuine picture quality and a cost no more than a 10-20% premium over PDP and LCD TV prices, "The Hiratsuka pilot line is not productive enough," he said.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/sedtech.html

http://www.displaybank.com/eng2004/n...ate=2006-05-12

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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Links Part 4

Quote:


Toshiba to Launch SED TV in 4Q 2007

Toshiba Corp. has unveiled its blueprint for SED (surface conduction electron-emitter display) rollout in an announcement of the mid-to-long-term business plan until 2008.

Because SED features lower material costs than LCD, the manufacturing costs, depreciated by facility costs, can be reduced. The company is currently swinging into action to prepare full mass production.

The company plans to start the initial mass production of SED panels at the conventional plant in Hiratsuka City, Kanagawa prefecture, in July 2007, with the size of 55-inch, and then bring the world's first SED TVs to the market from the fourth quarter of 2007. Full production in volume will be performed in the Himeji line from early 2008, and the sales of SED TV sets will target the Beijing Olympics in 2008, according to the company.

http://avzombie.com/blog/2006/05/23/...stment-in-sed/

http://www.tvtechnology.com/hd_notebook/one.php?id=781

http://gear.ign.com/articles/732/732563p1.html

http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6122...2022&subj=news

http://news.com.com/Toshiba+unveils+...l?tag=nefd.top

CEATEC JAPAN 2006 10/3/2006

Some actual 55" SED demo units rather than the 34" units they were showing last year!





http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6122...tag=ne.gall.pg



Quote:


SED Revs Up CEATEC

By Steve Sechrist

October 4, 2006

If your looking for the biggest buzz at Japan's CEATEC this year, go no further than the Canon/Toshiba SED booth in Hall 1 at this massive precursor to the January Consumer Electronics Show. Here, the Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display (SED), which was conspicuously absent from SID and other display technology venues this year, is being shown in a 55-inch model.

Lines begin forming a good 40 minutes to 1 hr. before the closed-door presentation, and that's the line to get tickets. There is yet another line to see the demonstration.

To my knowledge, no one who has seen the SED technology up front and close denies the display prowess. And the specs support this. The 55-inch model shown publicly for the first time here yesterday includes a 1920 x 1080 display resolution boasting 50,000:1 contrast at 450 cd/m2 brightness at a less than 1ms response time. Yutaka Sakuraba, SEDs deputy senior general manager for product development and design claims true CRT like performance from the flat panel display; something he said no other display technology can even approach.

Possibly true, but the company has yet to demonstrate they can produce these results in mass quantities and perhaps more importantly, at a price point competitive with rival LCD and PDP flat screens. Adding fuel to doubting display analyst crowd is the company's long delay in bringing the product to market-or even full production.

For his part, Sakuraba said flat panel market conditions, including significant price erosion in the space, forced a re-visit of product development plans including cost-down and ramp models more than once. " It's been a planning nightmare for the team but we believe we are on track for full production in the 2008 time frame." he said. "We're looking at the broader view and mass migration to DTV by 2011 when digital TV signals become the standard and all analog goes away." Sakuraba continued.

The company will spend the first half of 2007 perfecting its prototype process in Hitatsuka, Japan where the 55-inch units shown at CEATEC were produced. The company plans to be in serial-production by July-07 with a 55-inch line. Then, it will move to full production at a former Toshiba CRT factory located in Himaji, (Hyogo prefecture) Japan by the beginning of 2008.

Sakuraba emphasized all equipment used to build the new displays in the company's prototype factory was developed in-house leveraging the technology strengths of both partners. For example, Canon is supplying critical ink-jet technology in applying the palladium-oxide and carbon compound emitter layer. So the company is charged not only with developing the process, but building the tools to manufacture the technology as well.

Make no mistake, what these two companies are attempting is no less than a display technology paradigm shift in the face of LCD and PDP flat panel dominance - the result of billions of R&D and capacity investment dollars and ballooning output fueling accelerated price declines which continually spur demand for these traditional flat panels. But the company is bullish on SED display superiority, pouring development funds and resources into the project. And if the growing crowds here at CEATEC portend the future, the SED image is one certainly worth waiting for. The question is: will this wait ever be rewarded? --SS

http://mediablog.mail2web.com/gadget...5&width=100000

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #10 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Felgar, hoodlum, aud19

Thank you

sometimes it's best to just start fresh

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post #11 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 04:20 PM
 
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Just tremendous SED information you guys have provided.

Thanks!!
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post #12 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 06:56 PM
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Great fresh start! The old thread was pretty much filled with comments of vaporware. It's nice to actually discuss what could be. SED is definitely exciting. Whether it's SED, Laser Displays, or New panel type plasmas I think most of us A/V'ers here are longing for deeper black levels, richer colors, and just an overall improved picture. I personally prefers plasmas PQ best now but know there is definitely room for improvement.
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post #13 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 07:36 PM
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The article's author states that the black levels of SEDs looked better than any CRT he'd ever seen. Now please explain to me how this is possible when CRTs have black levels that can't get any blacker....as in zero light emissions. Sounds kind of like 'infinity plus one'.
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post #14 of 1655 Old 10-12-2006, 08:08 PM
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1 little question what LCD and Plasma were they using at the show. Also are the specs for the SED's final? Since they mention the release of the sets in 1 year, I figure Plasma and LCD has another year to grow and drop their price.

(where's Toshiba going to get all the R/D back from SED and HD-DVD???)

Plasma/LCD economy: http://www.witsview.com/
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post #15 of 1655 Old 10-13-2006, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The article's author states that the black levels of SEDs looked better than any CRT he'd ever seen. Now please explain to me how this is possible when CRTs have black levels that can't get any blacker....as in zero light emissions. Sounds kind of like 'infinity plus one'.

I would think that SED could provide point/pixel brightness far greater than CRT without bloom, effectively increasing the apparent contrast ratio. Also, there is apparently less point bleed, allowing for higher on/off differences between adjacent areas. But that's just a guess based on how the two techs work.
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post #16 of 1655 Old 10-13-2006, 07:28 AM
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(where's Toshiba going to get all the R/D back from SED and HD-DVD???)

If HDDVD becomes the king of the next gen formats and SED becomes that next de facto tech for flat screens, the question would be what would they do with all the money. It is a gamble and as with all gambles there is a risk it might not pay of...
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post #17 of 1655 Old 10-14-2006, 03:08 PM
 
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If HDDVD becomes the king of the next gen formats and SED becomes that next de facto tech for flat screens, the question would be what would they do with all the money. It is a gamble and as with all gambles there is a risk it might not pay of...


Its good gamble
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post #18 of 1655 Old 10-16-2006, 03:39 AM
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Funny......

Not that the Forum has split in two, this one being for news about SED.... it has become remarkably quite.

Cry Havoc and Let Loose the Dogs of War.
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post #19 of 1655 Old 10-16-2006, 10:03 AM
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Funny......

Not that the Forum has split in two, this one being for news about SED.... it has become remarkably quite.

I imagine it will be mostly that way between now and CES.

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #20 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 10:57 AM
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Thanks for all the work posting all the great links and quotes.

SED TV Reviews and News - my optimistic blog on SED TV.
FED TV Reviews and News - just in case SED, well, you know.
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post #21 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The article's author states that the black levels of SEDs looked better than any CRT he'd ever seen. Now please explain to me how this is possible when CRTs have black levels that can't get any blacker....as in zero light emissions. Sounds kind of like 'infinity plus one'.

Perhaps in a CRT, light from bright areas can bounce around within the tube and illuminate the dark areas. Or perhaps there can be bounces in the thick face glass.

Can't happen (at least no very far) on a flat panel.
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post #22 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 11:43 AM
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post #23 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 11:47 AM
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"Perhaps in a CRT, light from bright areas can bounce around within the tube and illuminate the dark areas."

Not really, no. Measured black levels on CRTs are infinitesimal. And while ANSI contrast is poor on CRTs vs. basically any digital technology other than older LCDs, that's due to brightness on the high end, not blackness on the low end.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #24 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 01:12 PM
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"Perhaps in a CRT, light from bright areas can bounce around within the tube and illuminate the dark areas."

Not really, no. Measured black levels on CRTs are infinitesimal. And while ANSI contrast is poor on CRTs vs. basically any digital technology other than older LCDs, that's due to brightness on the high end, not blackness on the low end.

Hurray for spec wars and contrast ratios that have 'burn your eyes out' brightness top ends. So pointless when you have to dial it back down anyway... give me better low blacks and shadow detail and worry less about non ANSI CR anyday I say. I hope SED can deliver here (someday... maybe ).
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post #25 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 01:32 PM
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Hurray for spec wars and contrast ratios that have 'burn your eyes out' brightness top ends. So pointless when you have to dial it back down anyway... give me better low blacks and shadow detail and worry less about non ANSI CR anyday I say. I hope SED can deliver here (someday... maybe ).

My guess is that SED outperforms CRT on measured ANSI contrast, as Rogo referred to, give the "appearance" of better blacks over traditional CRT on material that isn't full field off. I would wager their full field off measurements are quite similar.

As for peak brightness being blinding as your eluding to, from everything I've read while capable of decent light output, they're far from blinding like some current displays. Their impressive contrast numbers come more from their ability to display true black (with actual shadow detail), not just peak light output. It's actually the main selling point as far as I can tell, so you needn't worry

Just like women, nobody said this was going to be cheap either...
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post #26 of 1655 Old 10-17-2006, 02:17 PM
 
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My guess is that SED outperforms CRT on measured ANSI contrast, as Rogo referred to, give the "appearance" of better blacks over traditional CRT on material that isn't full field off. I would wager their full field off measurements are quite similar.

As for peak brightness being blinding as your eluding to, from everything I've read while capable of decent light output, they're far from blinding like some current displays. Their impressive contrast numbers come more from their ability to display true black (with actual shadow detail), not just peak light output. It's actually the main selling point as far as I can tell, so you needn't worry


And that is why strongly look forward to the introduction of SED.
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post #27 of 1655 Old 10-18-2006, 03:14 PM
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post #28 of 1655 Old 10-18-2006, 04:16 PM
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I'm desperate to get this thead to page 2 because page 1, while helpful, is kind of out of control with pictures and slow download times... So let me say that I think $3000 is going to be the sweet spot for 50-52" TVs at the time SED ships -- today the leading brands MSRP up to $5000 or so for Sony.

At 55 inches, SED is going to be "almost" as big as the 57s and 58s while, which are going to be around $5000 at SEDs into...

Just some food for thought.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #29 of 1655 Old 10-18-2006, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmike View Post

I would think that SED could provide point/pixel brightness far greater than CRT without bloom, effectively increasing the apparent contrast ratio. Also, there is apparently less point bleed, allowing for higher on/off differences between adjacent areas. But that's just a guess based on how the two techs work.

I was actually referencing the specific point made by the author that SED blacks were better than CRT blacks. It's impossible of course.
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post #30 of 1655 Old 10-19-2006, 10:13 AM
 
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I was actually referencing the specific point made by the author that SED blacks were better than CRT blacks. It's impossible of course.

Nothing is impossible with SED.
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