LCD or Plasma? Plasma or LCD? and why those Black Bars? Discuss it here only Please - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 12:13 PM
 
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Quote:


Do people just stop noticing the dithering?

No.
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post #722 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 01:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

No.

Never bothered me.
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post #723 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by maxdog03 View Post

Never bothered me.

at normal viewing distance it more than likely won't.
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post #724 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 03:01 PM
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Great story, and I look foreword to the conclusion (happy ending)!

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post #725 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 03:11 PM
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threads merged.

folks, please note: any threads started that in any way deal with lcd vs. plasma will be merged here, so if this isn't where you want your thread please make sure and keep the post/thread on topic and away from lcd vs. plasma. This sticky alone is intended for that chat.

Thanks all !

w
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post #726 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

No.

I can see from the post below your being ridiculed.

Dithering is a serious issue and nothing to be laughed at.

Its something we all see.

These are just my opinions.
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post #727 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I can see from the post below your being ridiculed.

Dithering is a serious issue and nothing to be laughed at.

Its something we all see.

Telling people how they percieve things again I see........

I wouldn't be surprised if you even know what dithering looks like.

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post #728 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

at normal viewing distance it more than likely won't.

I just don't see how people can say this. A lot of it can be hidden with distance, but under some circumstances I could see it from up to 20' away or more, such as the spotlight in the John Mayer BRD I mentioned. The only thing I can think of is that the plasma is in torch mode and a properly adjusted plasma will exhibit less dithering.

I read a couple really good threads on the dithering here, and it seems to me that plasma makers are trying to cheat low color depth inherent to the technology. If this is the case though, why isn't it mentioned in every article and discussion of plasma pros and cons? In my experience it's rarely mentioned. I'm not sure I've ever seen a clean solid color on a plasma.
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post #729 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by maxBR View Post

I just don't see how people can say this. .

Because its true.
I never even knew was dithering was until I read up on it here.
I find it to be no problem whatsoever.

I would definitly take a look at a properly set-up plasma displaying a quality source.
Most likely the one you saw was in torch mode.

I have better than 20/20 vision and sit about 8 & 1/2 feet from my 60 inch plasma and I have no problem whatsoever with seeing the dithering process.

Even when I pull-in closer when playing COD4 or COD5WaW, I have no issues seeing it.

If I stick my face 2 feet from the screen and look for it I can see what I believe is dithering, but on a quality blu-ray I can barely even see it then.

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Originally Posted by maxBR View Post


A lot of it can be hidden with distance, but under some circumstances I could see it from up to 20' away or more, such as the spotlight in the John Mayer BRD I mentioned.

If you can see what you are describing at 20 feet then you must have some amazing vision or there was someting wrong with the source.
I have never heard of anyone seeing the dithering process from that far away.

The only thing I can think of is that the plasma is in torch mode and a properly adjusted plasma will exhibit less dithering.

Quote:
If this is the case though, why isn't it mentioned in every article and discussion of plasma pros and cons? In my experience it's rarely mentioned. .

I think this question pretty much answers itself.


Quote:
I'm not sure I've ever seen a clean solid color on a plasma.

Then again, I would definitly take a look at a properly set-up plasma displaying a quality source.
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post #730 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Telling people how they percieve things again I see........

I wouldn't be surprised if you even know what dithering looks like.

http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/dither.htm

I just don't like Auditor being riduculed when he's trying to help Max.

Xrox how do you take maxdogs post with the huge grin?

These are just my opinions.
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post #731 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/dither.htm

I just don't like Auditor being riduculed when he's trying to help Max.

It took you a while to look that one up I see.....

BTW, that is not what it looks like on a PDP. Do you actually think it looks like that?

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Originally Posted by maxBR View Post

I just don't see how people can say this. A lot of it can be hidden with distance, but under some circumstances I could see it from up to 20' away or more, such as the spotlight in the John Mayer BRD I mentioned. The only thing I can think of is that the plasma is in torch mode and a properly adjusted plasma will exhibit less dithering.

I read a couple really good threads on the dithering here, and it seems to me that plasma makers are trying to cheat low color depth inherent to the technology. If this is the case though, why isn't it mentioned in every article and discussion of plasma pros and cons? In my experience it's rarely mentioned. I'm not sure I've ever seen a clean solid color on a plasma.

Whatever you are seeing from 20' is not dithering unless you have massive pixels.

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post #732 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

It took you a while to look that one up I see.....

No I got it on file.

These are just my opinions.
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post #733 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

[url]Xrox how do you take maxdogs post with the huge grin?

I try hard to stay out of the PDP vs LCD stuff but today I was bored. I also try hard to tell it like by pointing out the flaws in both techs in a realistic way.

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post #734 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I try hard to stay out of the PDP vs LCD stuff but today I was bored. I also try hard to tell it like by pointing out the flaws in both techs in a realistic way.

I agree there both flawed.

Its why I went from an 8k plasma to a 1.5k LCD.

In waiting.

Like Auditor.

These are just my opinions.
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post #735 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Whatever you are seeing from 20' is not dithering unless you have massive pixels.

I'm seeing noise/movement in what should be a solid color, which I believe is the result of dithering. If I'm using the wrong terms or am misunderstanding what is happening though someone please set me straight.

Obviously I'm not seeing it on the pixel level, but the agregate of the pixels cycling colors to create the proper shades creates movement in the image, and my eyes snap to it. In scenes with a talking head, I always find my eyes wandering to their forhead, or some area of the background will usually show it pretty bad as the tv scambles to create the gradients needed.
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post #736 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:41 PM
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yea both technologies have flaws and good things about them.

I don't think thier will ever be a "perfect" display. There will always be something wrong even if it is a small thing or not.

I preferr plasma but still enjoy the image of an LCD and am glad that they exist.
Heck, LCD's work well at high altitudes and plasmas don't. Which means that all those monitors and gauges that are used in the jets and helicoptors of the Army are most likely LCD monitors.
So in a way, LCD is responsible for our freedom and helps fight terrorism.
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post #737 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxBR View Post

I'm seeing noise/movement in what should be a solid color, which I believe is the result of dithering. If I'm using the wrong terms or am misunderstanding what is happening though someone please set me straight.

I just checked my pioneer with the break in slides and dithering is visible up to 4 feet away. And Pioneer uses a full 4 pixels to dither grayscale which is a lot. Which model do you have?

Also, does a paused signal still have this noise?

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post #738 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I just checked my pioneer with the break in slides and dithering is visible up to 4 feet away. And Pioneer uses a full 4 pixels to dither grayscale which is a lot. Which model do you have?

Also, does a paused signal still have this noise?

I don't have one. I'm talking about store viewing, and I readily admit that is probably making it much worse than normal. So that's what I'm trying to gauge here. I haven't spent any time with a Kuro, but I can always spot it on Pannys and Samsungs that I'm staring at.

I'm pretty sure pausing won't stop it, although I've never tested it. There is plenty of fairly static stuff in most viewing material.

Also, I don't have great eyesight or anything, just average. I have glasses for a mild astygmatism, but I never wear them.
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post #739 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by maxBR View Post

I don't have one. I'm talking about store viewing, and I readily admit that is probably making it much worse than normal. So that's what I'm trying to gauge here. I haven't spent any time with a Kuro, but I can always spot it on Pannys and Samsungs that I'm staring at.

I'm pretty sure pausing won't stop it, although I've never tested it. There is plenty of fairly static stuff in most viewing material.

Image noise looks very much like rotational dithering. If image noise is really bad I can see it at 20' as well. However, the second you pause the signal the noise stops.

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post #740 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Image noise looks very much like rotational dithering. If image noise is really bad I can see it at 20' as well. However, the second you pause the signal the noise stops.

I know there is noise in the source, but I definitely see the plasma noise as well.

Very much like the pics in this post illustrate, but moving in time http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14240312

For a while I was I was theorizing that LCD blur also has a side effect of noise reduction, but I doubt that effect is very big. Now I think LCD pixels are just good at rendering discrete solid shades, moreso than plasma.
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post #741 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Image noise looks very much like rotational dithering. If image noise is really bad I can see it at 20' as well. However, the second you pause the signal the noise stops.

Also, some movies have noise in them.

300 is the grainiest movie I have ever seen. No matter what kind of display you watch it on, thebackground looks like sand or something
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post #742 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxBR View Post

I know there is noise in the source, but I definitely see the plasma noise as well.

Very much like the pics in this post illustrate, but moving in time http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14240312

For a while I was I was theorizing that LCD blur also has a side effect of noise reduction, but I doubt that effect is very big. Now I think LCD pixels are just good at rendering discrete solid shades, moreso than plasma.

That looks like 6 or more discrete pixels are used which is even more than Pioneer. Even worse is the space between? Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, the movement you see is the rotational dithering (temporal). You have to understand the point that image noise looks identical to rotational dithering except that image noise spans a much greater number of pixels per unit. This is why I suspect at 20 feet you are mistaking image noise for dithering.

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post #743 of 1449 Old 01-07-2009, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

yea both technologies have flaws and good things about them.

I don't think thier will ever be a "perfect" display. There will always be something wrong even if it is a small thing or not.

I preferr plasma but still enjoy the image of an LCD and am glad that they exist.
Heck, LCD's work well at high altitudes and plasmas don't. Which means that all those monitors and gauges that are used in the jets and helicoptors of the Army are most likely LCD monitors.
So in a way, LCD is responsible for our freedom and helps fight terrorism.

I have both and don't have the need to continually look for flaws like some on here seem to always do and instead sit back and enjoy my TV's. I had a Pioneer Elite RPTV several years ago and it was the best picture available in my book, but it definitely wasn't perfect but I didn't care as like I said it was the best to me.
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post #744 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 12:34 AM
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I have both and don't have the need to continually look for flaws like some on here seem to always do and instead sit back and enjoy my TV's. I had a Pioneer Elite RPTV several years ago and it was the best picture available in my book, but it definitely wasn't perfect but I didn't care as like I said it was the best to me.

Yeah, those Pioneer Elite RPTV's were really nice, and still are really great RPTV's. My personal favorite was/is the Pioneer Elite PRO-730HDI. There's a group on here trying to salvage those last models. Sometimes, I look at a particular CE company's past behavior & products to determine their present & near future line.

Reputation means something to me. This may vary from their audio division or video division, but in the case of Pioneer, they have consistently st rived to be the best in their A/V fields over time. Their products have consistently won award after award for excellence and innovation.

This is all coming from a real SONY guy, especially their Professional & Broadcast Division products, which I have had extensive experience with over the last 25 years. Time to quit dumbing down the PQ on this forum. People may be looking for a bargain, and that's great & fine, but don't try to pass off your entry-level display as the "best" in the industry. Give me a freak'in break. It's "reference quality" video we are striving to achieve in Home Theater. It can sometimes be achieved on a budject, but of course there will be superior products that just plain do a better job. It's up you to spend what you think is worth your while, and if a particular display fits your budget. I really don't know of any professional installer that recommends a big screen LCD for HOME THEATER. If you find one let me know.

Right now, times are a bit tough for many, and for me, my wife has nixed a new display. Still, standards should not change. If I bought a Toyota 4Runner, I can't claim it's an Escalade although both are SUV's! Usually in the real world, you pay for what you get, and you will pay more to get the very best.
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post #745 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 03:49 AM
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This is a reply to VarmitCong from a thead that was locked before I got the chance to answer back:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Perales
I can see motion blur on CRTs as well, but it's something that I can live with.
Danny

I see blur watching cars go by on the street - and there's no TV involved. I think that's what you're seeing on CRTs.

No. The blur I see comes from video games with high contrast (dark/black background with moving white/bright color blips) that I play from my PS3 ("Blast Factor" and "Stardust HD"), from time to time.

Moving blips looks like mini comets to me on both CRTs and plasmas, while the same blips looks more like smears to me on some older and or cheap LCDs.

Like I said again, I see motion blur in just about any direct video display that I've seen.



Danny
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post #746 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Perales View Post

Moving blips looks like mini comets to me on both CRTs and plasmas, while the same blips looks more like smears to me on some older and or cheap LCDs.

Like I said again, I see motion blur in just about any direct video display that I've seen.



Danny

You might want to check out the new Panasonic releases as they claim to use fast phosphor technology that should eliminate the comet trails and/or rainbows that some see with phosphor based displays.

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post #747 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 07:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Telling people how they percieve things again I see........

I wouldn't be surprised if you even know what dithering looks like.




Who haven't seen that on a plasma TV. Its something you just learn to live with it because its that state of the technology.

Of course with SED you wouldn't see any such thing.
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post #748 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post


Who haven't seen that on a plasma TV. Its something you just learn to live with it because its that state of the technology.

Of course with SED you wouldn't see any such thing.

I've never tried to talk tech talk like Xrox. He's in a different league then me.

But you can see that he's solidly in the plasma camp.

Where I went wrong is buying HDTV's.

I'm just a consumer that wants something that works right. Thats all.

SED or OLED or whatever.

Anything would do.

These are just my opinions.
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post #749 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Who haven't seen that on a plasma TV. Its something you just learn to live with it because its that state of the technology.

Of course with SED you wouldn't see any such thing.

Not surprised you would presume to tell others what they percieve.......

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post #750 of 1449 Old 01-08-2009, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I've never tried to talk tech talk like Xrox. He's in a different league then me.

Nonsense.....

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But you can see that he's solidly in the plasma camp.

Because I own one? Actually, I do like the technology better as well. At least I am honest and realistic about the magnitude of it's flaws.

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Where I went wrong is buying HDTV's.

I personally think where you went wrong was deciding to dedicate your life to stopping the so called plasma fanboys from taking over the world

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I'm just a consumer that wants something that works right. Thats all.

I really hope that was a joke I mean what do you call someone who is the polar opposite of a plasma fanboy? An LCD fanboy I presume. At least it sure looks that way. I mean if you spend your existence posting anti-plasma rhetoric it sure seems like you prefer LCD, right? Do you think LCD is as bad as Plasma? Why not post as much?

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SED or OLED or whatever.

Do think SED or OLED are flawless?

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