Official "1080p Vs. 720p" Thread Discussion - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1468 Old 07-12-2007, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gabriele25 View Post

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but there is a substantial bandwidth difference between 720p vs 1080p.

1080p/24fps is part of the ATSC broadcast standard.
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post #542 of 1468 Old 07-12-2007, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jackc04 View Post

I think most source material for 1080i broadcasts are either 24fps (movies) or 30fps. Both of those formats can be broadcasted via 1080i (telecine) and the original 24fps or 30fps can be perfectly recovered (inverse telecine) with zero interlacing artifacts. So, in that respect, its better to display every pixel than to display the even and odd fields. Apples to apples, for displaying 24fps/30fps broadcasted via 1080i, a fixed pixel TV is better than a CRT that draws the individual fields.

Like you said, if there are 60 unique frames, the 1080i fields are time shifted, and when the TV combines them, they don't line up exactly. That's when techniques like motion adaptive deinterlacing come into play, to reduce those interlacing artifacts that exist in the source material itself. I don't know for sure, but I don't think a lot of material like that exists these days. I'm guessing however. But even in this case, I think combining the fields together and displaying them all at once will look better than one field at a time.

If you think a fixed panel is better than a CRT-RPTV, you need to come over to my house and see my CRT-RPTV. Theory and actuality are two different things. There's a reason I'm still watching this set. My son has a 1920x1200 24" monitor he can watch HD-DVD and BR on but when he wants to see the best quality picture, he watches on my 1080i CRT-RPTV.
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post #543 of 1468 Old 07-16-2007, 10:40 AM
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I'm new to this technology and wanted to make sure I understood everything clearly before I made a purchase. I read through the first couple of threads but got confused so I thought I would add a question post.

I am intending to buy a 50" panasonic industrial plasma. i will be viewing the display from 8-12'. i can't decide whether i should purchase the th-50pH9uk (768p) now or if i should wait until the th-50pF9uk (1080p) comes down more into my price range. I will be using the tv strictly to view movies (i.e., i don't watch tv). I will mostly be watch sd-dvds. However, I do intend to watch some hd-dvds as well.

I thought it would be nice to be able to watch the few hd-dvds in their native resolution. Yet it sounded like upconverting standard dvds to 1080p might make them appear worse than they would on the 768p display due to 1080p being further from their native resolution. Is this the case?

Thanks!
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post #544 of 1468 Old 07-16-2007, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cpb0218 View Post

I'm new to this technology and wanted to make sure I understood everything clearly before I made a purchase. I read through the first couple of threads but got confused so I thought I would add a question post.

I am intending to buy a 50" panasonic industrial plasma. i will be viewing the display from 8-12'. i can't decide whether i should purchase the th-50pH9uk (768p) now or if i should wait until the th-50pF9uk (1080p) comes down more into my price range. I will be using the tv strictly to view movies (i.e., i don't watch tv). I will mostly be watch sd-dvds. However, I do intend to watch some hd-dvds as well.

I thought it would be nice to be able to watch the few hd-dvds in their native resolution. Yet it sounded like upconverting standard dvds to 1080p might make them appear worse than they would on the 768p display due to 1080p being further from their native resolution. Is this the case?

Thanks!

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think it all depends on the source and the TV. I have an Oppo 981 upconverting DVD player, and a Sharp D62U (1920x1080), and DVD-Video looks great.
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post #545 of 1468 Old 07-17-2007, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

Well, w/the 768p you are pretty much locked into the perceived resolution. Seems to me that a 1080p display will provide you w/more options. For example, after 3 years you decide to re-configure your furniture or you move to a different location providing you the opportunity to sit closer to the display. You can only get so close to a 768p screen before you see SDE. What if you ever want to move the TV to the bedroom and have closer viewing distances? What if you ever want to hook up your display to a HTPC and require 1:1 pixel mapping? What if you ever want to fully upgrade to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, but can't enjoy its full benefits unless you have a 1080p display? Even if you don't need these things today, do you think you may ever want the options later in the life of the display?

Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread here, but my simplistic take on your concerns is that by the time I need to worry about any of points you raise (several years), the price of the 1080p version of the set I just bought (the 58" panny 60U at 57% of the 1080p price) will have come down enough that I can get a new one and end up with two displays for not much more money than the 1080p version alone would cost me today.

I doubt this would be true if I was looking at other display types, but for Plasma, I think it made sense to take the deal now and wait for a great 1080p deal a few years down the road. So the relevant time period for me isn't the life of the display, but the half-life of 1080p plasma prices.
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post #546 of 1468 Old 07-17-2007, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhacker View Post

Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread here, but my simplistic take on your concerns is that by the time I need to worry about any of points you raise (several years), the price of the 1080p version of the set I just bought (the 58" panny 60U at 57% of the 1080p price) will have come down enough that I can get a new one and end up with two displays for not much more money than the 1080p version alone would cost me today.

I doubt this would be true if I was looking at other display types, but for Plasma, I think it made sense to take the deal now and wait for a great 1080p deal a few years down the road. So the relevant time period for me isn't the life of the display, but the half-life of 1080p plasma prices.

Yes, you could upgrade that way if you choose, but I prefer the home theater plan proposed by another poster on this Forum name "itigap". It pretty much goes like this...first you buy the largest & best 1080p display you can afford (for me, it would be either the Panny 65"er or the Pio 60" 8G) and that becomes your main viewer for many years as this the biggest cost of the HT system, and the HT upgrades come from add-on components that you can easily upgrade as newer video tech becomes available. The 1080p display will be around for quite a long time, which unlike the 768p displays that are being phased out totally on larger screen sizes right now.

If your plan is to eventually equip your home w/a number of large flat panel displays over a period of a few years, then I probably would go your route, but for me I do not need several more larger flat panels around the house. Heck I'm already planning to cram in a Sony 40XBR HDTV into the kitchen dining area once I buy my next 60+" HT upgrade.
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post #547 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 09:49 AM
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Newbie question. Is sd (480i) material always going to look better on a 720p lcd because of the scaling involved with 1080? I like the size and pq of my 720p vizio but I am leaning toward the new 1080p model in the GV line.
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post #548 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman21 View Post

Newbie question. Is sd (480i) material always going to look better on a 720p lcd because of the scaling involved with 1080?

In short, no. Its all been covered in the thread in painstaking detail. I know its long but its worth the read.
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post #549 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 10:17 AM
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Thank you!! I'm on page 3!
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post #550 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 11:29 AM
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Is there any simple way to differentiate 1080p LCD panel from 1080i(720p) one reliably(assuming that I have 1080p feed (from Oppo DV-981HD))?
TIA.
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post #551 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

... I know its long but its worth the read.

I have done the read and asked some questions in #542 & #543 based on the read with no real success in gaining information.

I did receive a reply to #542, which I have decided to reply to so I can clarify or refocus the question, but no reply to #543.

I wondered if someone could take a shot at #543 in particular. (I may have caused that by misinterpreting an icon -- thought it was a red question mark. Doh!)

Thanks.
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post #552 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jackc04 View Post

I think most source material for 1080i broadcasts are either 24fps (movies) or 30fps. Both of those formats can be broadcasted via 1080i (telecine) and the original 24fps or 30fps can be perfectly recovered (inverse telecine) with zero interlacing artifacts. So, in that respect, its better to display every pixel than to display the even and odd fields. Apples to apples, for displaying 24fps/30fps broadcasted via 1080i, a fixed pixel TV is better than a CRT that draws the individual fields.

Like you said, if there are 60 unique frames, the 1080i fields are time shifted, and when the TV combines them, they don't line up exactly. That's when techniques like motion adaptive deinterlacing come into play, to reduce those interlacing artifacts that exist in the source material itself. I don't know for sure, but I don't think a lot of material like that exists these days. I'm guessing however. But even in this case, I think combining the fields together and displaying them all at once will look better than one field at a time.

Thanks. I agree on the scarcity of true 1080i source.

However I used 1080i as my example in #542 to try to avoid combining scaling with de-interlacing. I'm really interested in de-interlacing 480i -- for which there is a LOT of need since we still have to deal with a lot of SD.

Sorry for confusing the issue while trying avoid combining two issues.
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post #553 of 1468 Old 07-18-2007, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EKlein751 View Post

Thanks. I agree on the scarcity of true 1080i source.

However I used 1080i as my example in #542 to try to avoid combining scaling with de-interlacing. I'm really interested in de-interlacing 480i -- for which there is a LOT of need since we still have to deal with a lot of SD.

Sorry for confusing the issue while trying avoid combining two issues.

Just for clarification, I did not mean to say that there isn't a lot of 1080i sources out there. There most certainly is (CBS, NBC, Discovery HD, HDNet, etc ...). What I meant to say is that I didn't think there was too much material out there these days where the individual 1080i fields are time shifted. But that is a total guess. Maybe someone else knows more.
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post #554 of 1468 Old 07-21-2007, 07:48 PM
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How long until 1440p?

Once 1440p gets here will there still be people at this forum who will claim that 480p DVDs still are the greatest?
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post #555 of 1468 Old 07-22-2007, 01:15 PM
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I am buying an LCD TV for my mom. She has a TV cabinet that has the dimensions of 32 W X 271/2 tall.

Her chair sits 10' from the wall.

She is 67, no video games, almost never dvd movie, so will primarily be watching regular TV.

Will I regret buying her a 720p?

Looking primarily at Samsung/Sony/Sharp LCDTV but undecided on spending the $$$ for a 1080p....

Thoughts or suggestions?
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post #556 of 1468 Old 07-22-2007, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by atwnsw View Post

I am buying an LCD TV for my mom. She has a TV cabinet that has the dimensions of 32 W X 271/2 tall.

Her chair sits 10' from the wall.

She is 67, no video games, almost never dvd movie, so will primarily be watching regular TV.

Will I regret buying her a 720p?

Looking primarily at Samsung/Sony/Sharp LCDTV but undecided on spending the $$$ for a 1080p....

Thoughts or suggestions?

720p should be more than adequate under those conditions.

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post #557 of 1468 Old 07-22-2007, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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atwsnw -

absolutely not (i.e., you won't regret). go 720p in this case, especially given the relatively small screen size she will be restricted to given those cabinet dimensions. Even if she were to move her chair 5ft in closer, I would still adamantly recommend the same.






ps: you're a good boy.

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post #558 of 1468 Old 07-22-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

atwsnw -

absolutely not (i.e., you won't regret). go 720p in this case, especially given the relatively small screen size she will be restricted to given those cabinet dimensions. Even if she were to move her chair 5ft in closer, I would still adamantly recommend the same.






ps: you're a good boy.

ditto - if your mom is anything like my mom[older] consider a PDP for its ability to handle motion/SD better-not sure you will find one with those required dimensions.

dv
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post #559 of 1468 Old 07-22-2007, 02:59 PM
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I ended up order the following TV from Amazon for my mom:

Toshiba REGZA 32HL67U 32" 720p LCD HDTV

The reviews were solid and the price was $765 Dlv'd
including free setup & delivery .
(which is important because I live out of town).

Any thoughts or suggestions as I can always cancel the order...
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post #560 of 1468 Old 07-26-2007, 05:12 AM
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OK, I've read several posts and I'm still confused. I have a Panasonic plasma 42" 1024x768 which accepts a 1080p signal. I recently bought an upconverting Pany dvd recorder (ez27) that can output 1080p. Now, since my TV is NOT 1920x1080, doesn't it make more sense to set the dvd recorder to output to the native 720p resolution? Or will it really be better to send it the high 1080p signal? Or 1080i? Logically, it seems like if I do NOT use 720p, the player will be upscaling the dvd, then the TV will be downscaling it back to 720. I tried both last night and didn't see a big difference. Both looked spectacular for a dvd!!
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post #561 of 1468 Old 07-26-2007, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bkthiess View Post

OK, I've read several posts and I'm still confused. I have a Panasonic plasma 42" 1024x768 which accepts a 1080p signal. I recently bought an upconverting Pany dvd recorder (ez27) that can output 1080p. Now, since my TV is NOT 1920x1080, doesn't it make more sense to set the dvd recorder to output to the native 720p resolution? Or will it really be better to send it the high 1080p signal? Or 1080i? Logically, it seems like if I do NOT use 720p, the player will be upscaling the dvd, then the TV will be downscaling it back to 720. I tried both last night and didn't see a big difference. Both looked spectacular for a dvd!!

Use whichever setting looks best. That could be anything from 480i to 1080p depending on the quality of the video processing in the devices.

In general, you want to avoid extra steps, so the most direct route would be 480i source -> 480i output -> 1024x768 screen. However, the DVD player may have a better deinterlacer than the TV making 480p a better choice. Or, The DVD player might have also have a better scaler than the TV, such that outputting 720p looks best (even though, in that case you are still forcing the TV to go from 1280x720 to 1024x768).
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post #562 of 1468 Old 08-08-2007, 05:44 AM
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I overhead some comments about 720p being harder on the eyes when using the TV as a computer monitor in comparison to a 1080p. Can anyone else verify this?
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post #563 of 1468 Old 08-08-2007, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nanjirou View Post

I overhead some comments about 720p being harder on the eyes when using the TV as a computer monitor in comparison to a 1080p. Can anyone else verify this?

I'm a software developer using a 1080p widescreen 24" display at the office and it certainly can display smoother and more detailed fonts and graphics than I would be able to get on any 720p monitor. But remember I'm probably viewing it from distances of only 1-2 screen heights.

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post #564 of 1468 Old 08-09-2007, 03:58 PM
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After reading about 1/3 of the thread and then skipping to the last few pages, I'm leaning again toward 1080p. However, in the Panasonics, that will result in a loss in contrast ratio. As I have learned from other threads, I should be more concerned about contrast ratio than resolution. So, do I opt for the 42"pz700u or the 42" px77u? Sure the pz700u's higher resolution sounds good, but the 5000:1 vs. 10000:1 in the 77u seems like a major loss in overall PQ.

My view distance (6.5' - 7.5') lends to the 1080p choice, but we still watch a bunch of SD cable, so our choice isn't obvious....

All that, along with the old, if I get the 77u, I might just be able to swing the 50", but then I"m back to bigger pixles, and thus would want to get the higher resolution....

ARGH!

Glad I can still use my slightly broken Sony XBR910 for now.
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post #565 of 1468 Old 08-09-2007, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoTony View Post

After reading about 1/3 of the thread and then skipping to the last few pages, I'm leaning again toward 1080p. ..............
My view distance (6.5' - 7.5') lends to the 1080p choice.


Then you read through the wrong third of the thread if you've come away with 1080p being the better choice in a 42" plasma, unless you're talking computer use, or, unless you are seeing the SDE (screen door effect) grid pattern from your minimum 6.5ft distance. If neither of those two situations apply, I say without equivocation that you should go 720p in the 42" and get that extra contrast.

Heck, there's plenty enough doubt as to whether or not even a 50" plasma would be benefited by having 1080p resolution at the distance range you've described above, let alone in a 42", but whatever. This has been hashed and rehashed thousands of times already, so go with your gut, I guess.

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post #566 of 1468 Old 08-09-2007, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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.. furthermore, if SD is going to be prevalent in your viewing for some time, I would be more concerned about the processing capabilities of the panel more so than whether a 720p or 1080p native display would better handle your viewing content resolution differences.

Given your circumstances, as you've described them.. I would go with the Pioneer 4280 plasma. 720p with incredible contrast and likely better processing than either of the Panasonics that you are now considering.

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post #567 of 1468 Old 08-09-2007, 08:24 PM
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So bottom line: 42" 720p Plasma with better contrast ratio is a better solution at a 6.5-7.5 feet viewing distance than a sub 42" 1080p with poorer contrast ratio?
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post #568 of 1468 Old 08-09-2007, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I think that is the general consensus, yes. There are some experienced video people, some who post in this thread, who might quibble on some finer pt. or two, but the gist of your statement is widely agreed upon.

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post #569 of 1468 Old 08-09-2007, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Then you read through the wrong third of the thread if you've come away with 1080p being the better choice in a 42" plasma, unless you're talking computer use, or, unless you are seeing the SDE (screen door effect) grid pattern from your minimum 6.5ft distance. If neither of those two situations apply, I say without equivocation that you should go 720p in the 42" and get that extra contrast.

Heck, there's plenty enough doubt as to whether or not even a 50" plasma would be benefited by having 1080p resolution at the distance range you've described above, let alone in a 42", but whatever. This has been hashed and rehashed thousands of times already, so go with your gut, I guess.

I'm sure I did read a lot of wrong things... or interpreted them incorrectly.... but I guess I left out that I would like to use it with the PC, and I am prone to seeing SDE. But I'm also easily annoyed by digital artifacts, noise, macroblocking - basically everything that my $1500 price point can bearly overcome.

All that, along with the whole future proofing, price point, etc, I am drawn to the Panny 1080p. But I'm also not going to rush into getting anything. Prices are falling every day and there's time to figure all this out.
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post #570 of 1468 Old 08-10-2007, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

I think that is the general consensus, yes. There are some experienced video people, some who post in this thread, who might quibble on some finer pt. or two, but the gist of your statement is widely agreed upon.


Thanks.. however sometimes I hear people add the caveat "unless you're getting a PS3 or am buying HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.." I'm going to be doing both, does that factor add any fuel to the debate?
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