Official "1080p Vs. 720p" Thread Discussion - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1468 Old 01-15-2008, 07:00 PM
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My HD cable feeds are at 1080i with the exception of ABC which is at 720.
This is through Cox cable in Orange County, CA

I'd rather be safe than sorry so I am planning on going with a 50" 1080 Plasma. I also have a Blu-Ray player.
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post #812 of 1468 Old 01-15-2008, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSGfan View Post

You raise a good question. That is, all the talk of distances vs screen size usually assumes 20/20. Worse eyesight means you'd have to sit closer before you see a benefit in higher res. Specifically, 20/25 would mean you would take those charts everyone mentions and multiply the distance by 20/25. Okay, so if we used the std chart and adjusted, it would say you'd start to see a benefit of higher res than 720 if you sit closer than about 6 ft (40" TV assumed). You wouldn't get the "full" benefit of 1080 unless within about 4 ft.

I use "abouts" to highlight that this is all rather mechanical and theoretical. Other things are as, or more important (electronics processing, color, contrast, ....).

But resolution per se, I think given your distances, you'd be spending more money with no actual (but perhaps still some psychic!) benefit from getting a 1080 set.

Thanks BSGfan for doing the math for me! I was at the store tonight and they actually put up a 1080p feed for me on a 40" 1080p lcd and it was amazing!! But, I was in the aisle and maybe 3 ft from it. Being farther away at my normal viewing distance I'm sure it would have still been excellent but a bit less so than it was at 3ft.

I'm leaning towards either the Panasonic 42PX75U 720p or the Samsung 4061 1080p lcd. Then probably in 2 yrs put this panel in the bedroom and buy new and larger for the living room when hopefully I have bought a house. The 720p plasma is very inexpensive at the moment and between the savings on 720p which should be fine for my eyesight based on that screen size and the fact I can put that saved $$$ towards a stand, PS3, and a new audio system
seem to make the choice for me.

Anyway, I was just curious about the eyesight factor because surely I'm not the only one with difficult eyes...maybe I'll post a topic on its own to find out what others do.
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post #813 of 1468 Old 01-16-2008, 12:28 AM
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Dude I think you have it figured out. You simply cannot go wrong with the 42px75u it is a great TV at a good price, I love mine. SD TV looks way better than most every other, xbox 360 looks amazing. Save your money for other goodies! I don't know if it will help you but here are A few pics I took of mine, I know they are not the best pics but here you go.


Attachment 99103

Attachment 99104

Attachment 99105
LL
LL
LL
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post #814 of 1468 Old 01-16-2008, 01:51 PM
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Look--when it comes to 1080p LCD just sucks.

The only Plasma 1080p that looks worth watching is a Pioneer Kuro but then you wind up paying zillions of dollars unless you buy the 5080--but at 50-inches unless you're so close to the TV that you can eat it what's the point of the 1080p?

I'll stand by this advice: do buy 1080p but make it a 58-inch 2008 Panasonic or a 65-inch 2008 Panasonic--you'll still have to sit close but you'll get the benefit of 1080p--you won't have to spend 10 zillion dollars like you would on a Pioneer--and you want have to put up with LCD's pathetic viewing angles, lousy blacks, and motion detail and motion resolution problems.

Anyway you slice it--if it's not one of the best of the 2008 Panasonic plasma line--or if it's not a Pioneer Kuro then it just plain sucks!

And if you don't sit close enough and if you don't buy a screen big enough then you won't get the benefit of 1080p either.

If you don't have the cash I say buy the Pioneer 5080--you'll get the best 720p there is and if you sit at the ideal right distance from it it won't be bad.

Any other choices are just a waste of time.

The successors to the Samsung 71s and 81s and possibly future 65-inch Sharp LCDs might be barely acceptable if you sit directly in the sweet spot and don't care if other people sit at angles and get crummy picture quality.

SXRD is about dead--even if you find a 70XBR2 you might get a lemon and even if you don't you'll have to replace the lamp all the time.

JVC is getting real quiet--I think they're about to drop LCOS, too.

The market is swiftly becoming one of 95% cheap Flat Panel LCDs that all the ignorant and all the Joe 6-packs buy--4% of Plasmas that are also substandard--and 1% of plasmas that are fit to buy.

That's the read deal!

I'm not saying that it will always be the way it is--only the way it is heading for 2008.

But don't feel agitated by my words--in every year among all sorts of products there are only a slight few that are at the top 1 to 2%.

No one buys the best all the time--I know I don't.

If you have to compromise and buy less than the greatest then DO SO--just be comfortable with the compromises you make.

Just always be able to accept the truth that you are compromising.

I can buy anything and be able to say that truthfully what I bought wasn't the greatest in the world.

But you'll never hear me say that "In my eyes what I bought was the best" or the other ludicrous notion of "Picture Quality is a matter of taste".

That's UNTRUE.

The question all of us has to face is "Can you handle the truth"? I can.

Good luck on being able to face the truth--if you can do that then no one should question any purchase decision that you would or would not make!
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post #815 of 1468 Old 01-16-2008, 04:37 PM
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I do liek 1080p, although I have just bought a 720p Kuro.

I think the reason I went with the Kuro was the quality of it next to 1080p.

And I'm pretty sure, what I've told heaps of people around here since the start of bluray, is that the bitrate of 1080p source is currently crap.

Take this for example, Bluray is 6 times resolution of DVD. Bluray is about 6 times the bitrate of DVD. So why is it better, the resolution. Why is the resolution better, because the flatpanels have a higher pixel count so need that resolution to popular the pixels as you could say.

But in terms of the amount of data given to each pixel, its the same. Sure you can say it uses AVC profile etc, but we all know if you look at AV camcorder enthusiasts they would prefer the mpg cameras over AVCHD.

I think in order for people to see a real difference with 1080p is say when movies start using 200mbps bitrates.

i also think thats why the kuro makes 1080p look soo good on a 720p panel. it has all the data thats 6 x that of dvd, but yet the res is say only 2 to 3 times that of dvd. so it has more data to play with and can make better use of it's panel.
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post #816 of 1468 Old 01-19-2008, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Look--when it comes to 1080p LCD just sucks.

The only Plasma 1080p that looks worth watching is a Pioneer Kuro but then you wind up paying zillions of dollars unless you buy the 5080--but at 50-inches unless you're so close to the TV that you can eat it what's the point of the 1080p?

I'll stand by this advice: do buy 1080p but make it a 58-inch 2008 Panasonic or a 65-inch 2008 Panasonic--you'll still have to sit close but you'll get the benefit of 1080p--you won't have to spend 10 zillion dollars like you would on a Pioneer--and you want have to put up with LCD's pathetic viewing angles, lousy blacks, and motion detail and motion resolution problems.

That's what i've been waiting to hear, unless there's a 1080p kuro right next to your TV and you look over and say "Yah it does look better", then it won't matter. Thanks and goodnight everyone

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post #817 of 1468 Old 01-19-2008, 06:50 PM
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and you want have to put up with LCD's pathetic viewing angles

I'm pissed off that I can't view my LCD from behind like the plasma owners - it only has 178 degree viewing angle.
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post #818 of 1468 Old 01-19-2008, 08:44 PM
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How mad are you that in 90% of the 178 degree viewing angle that the picture looks like crap?

How about a side by side face off between plasma and LCD when viewed at just 170 degrees of that 178 degree angle?

Go back to the PR department and ask them to come up with something better.
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post #819 of 1468 Old 01-20-2008, 03:12 AM
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I just don't undersand why so many 720p owners are still holding on to thier 720p TV's and screaming "1080p is a waste of money" and "there is no difference".
I have owned both and I would take a 1080p TV over a 720p anyday.
Resolution matters people!!!! I don't understand why everyone keeps putting resolution as number 4 and 5 on the importance list. It should be higher.
If resolution is not important then we should all drop HDTV's all together and go back to the CRT days becasue as most know, the Color, contrast, black levels are much better on a CRT.
So why did we all go HD? The answer is RESOLUTION!! The higher the resolution the sharper the picture and more detail.
720p is great but it is not 1080p.
If two tvs have the same quality then the 1080p version is the better TV. There is no question in this.
I recently bought the Pioneer pdp-5080hd. This is a 720p television.
Before I bought this TV I owned a KDS-R60XBR2 1080p television. And when I got the Pioneer home I was very disappointed. The picture was not as detailed when watching my 1080i hd and 1080p blu-ray. The pioneer has to downscale all 1080i/p signals. In doing this it loses over half of the pixel information. Thats alot of detail to lose.
So I took the Pioneer pdp-5080hd (720p) back and got the Samsung LNT-5271F (1080p,120hz,lcd).
There was a noticable (not huge) difference in picture detail with the samsung. Also, the Samsumg has a much brighter more vibrant picture than the pioneer. The pioneer was great with blacks but when it came to bright scenes it was pretty dim. The only way I could stop this was to boost up the contrast which I do not like doing becasue you lose color accuacy and I try to stay as true to the signal as possible.
Also, I love the effects of the 120hz. It makes movies look kinda like a home video or soap opera (which alot of people do not like but I do).
But after having the Samsung for about 3 weeks I started disliking the reflective screen, color accuracy, 1080i video processing, SD processing, and a few other things.
So I traded the LNT-5271F in for the new Sony KDL-52XBR4.
I seem to like the Sony best in pretty much all categories with the exception of the black levels of the Pioneer.
So The sony is the TV I stuck with and have been loving it ever since.
720p is on its way out regardless of what anyone says. most newer HDTVs are going 1080p. So why buy a 720p television??
I recently went to look at the new Pioneer Kuro 1080p models.
At the store they had the Pioneer Kuro PDP-5080hd(720p) and the Pioneer Kuro PDP-5010FD(1080p) side by side. I noticed a good difference in picture detail between the two (especially when the screen was displaying text, the 720p showed a "screen door" effect on the letters and I hated that). The price difference was pretty big but the 1080p version was the better picture hands down.
Most average TV watchers might not notice much of a difference at 8 feet or so. But I myself am hooked on HD and really pay attention to detail (plus, my eyesight is better than 20/20 my eyedoctor tells me) so I see a difference. And most real HD fanatics do also.
I have decided that I am going to buy the Pioneer PRO-150FD. This is the 60 inch elite 1080p Kuro.
in my opinion, this flat panel can not be beat. And the fact that it is 1080p is a big factor!

The bottom line:
Most new TV's are going 1080p (EVEN PLASMAS).
Most new HD media (blu-ray,HD-DVD) is going 1080p.
The price difference is slowly going away (wish it would hurry up).

So the question should not be "Should I get a 720p HDTV or a 1080p HDTV?".
The question should be "Is the small price difference between 720p and 1080p worth the added benefits of 1080p?"
The answer will be different depending on the person and what they consider important in a TV.
So there really is no wrong answer. If you don't consider the added benefits worth it then 1080p is not for you.


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post #820 of 1468 Old 01-20-2008, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Look--when it comes to 1080p LCD just sucks.

The only Plasma 1080p that looks worth watching is a Pioneer Kuro but then you wind up paying zillions of dollars unless you buy the 5080--but at 50-inches unless you're so close to the TV that you can eat it what's the point of the 1080p?

I'll stand by this advice: do buy 1080p but make it a 58-inch 2008 Panasonic or a 65-inch 2008 Panasonic--you'll still have to sit close but you'll get the benefit of 1080p--you won't have to spend 10 zillion dollars like you would on a Pioneer--and you want have to put up with LCD's pathetic viewing angles, lousy blacks, and motion detail and motion resolution problems.

Anyway you slice it--if it's not one of the best of the 2008 Panasonic plasma line--or if it's not a Pioneer Kuro then it just plain sucks!

And if you don't sit close enough and if you don't buy a screen big enough then you won't get the benefit of 1080p either.

If you don't have the cash I say buy the Pioneer 5080--you'll get the best 720p there is and if you sit at the ideal right distance from it it won't be bad.

Any other choices are just a waste of time.

The successors to the Samsung 71s and 81s and possibly future 65-inch Sharp LCDs might be barely acceptable if you sit directly in the sweet spot and don't care if other people sit at angles and get crummy picture quality.

SXRD is about dead--even if you find a 70XBR2 you might get a lemon and even if you don't you'll have to replace the lamp all the time.

JVC is getting real quiet--I think they're about to drop LCOS, too.

The market is swiftly becoming one of 95% cheap Flat Panel LCDs that all the ignorant and all the Joe 6-packs buy--4% of Plasmas that are also substandard--and 1% of plasmas that are fit to buy.

That's the read deal!

I'm not saying that it will always be the way it is--only the way it is heading for 2008.

But don't feel agitated by my words--in every year among all sorts of products there are only a slight few that are at the top 1 to 2%.

No one buys the best all the time--I know I don't.

If you have to compromise and buy less than the greatest then DO SO--just be comfortable with the compromises you make.

Just always be able to accept the truth that you are compromising.

I can buy anything and be able to say that truthfully what I bought wasn't the greatest in the world.

But you'll never hear me say that "In my eyes what I bought was the best" or the other ludicrous notion of "Picture Quality is a matter of taste".

That's UNTRUE.

The question all of us has to face is "Can you handle the truth"? I can.

Good luck on being able to face the truth--if you can do that then no one should question any purchase decision that you would or would not make!

Dude, Are you serious??
LCD is doing great in the 1080p market. And it looks great!
Many more 1080p LCD's are being sold than plasmas!
You might want to take a look at the Sony KDL52XBR4.
The viewing angles on the newer LCD's are great!!! Plasma is just a littl bit better. But then again if you are watching your TV at a degree larger than 178 degrees than you have some serious living room furniture arrangement problems!lol How manty times have you watched your TV at that degree anyway honestly. Also, LCD is much more vibrant and brighter than Plasma, doesn't burn in, doesn't have reflection issues like plasma, consumes less power, and have some other advantages. So get your facts straight. Plasma and LCD are both good!
I agree that the new Pioneer Kuro's are the best.
But the Panasonics aren't even in the same league.
To say that all LCD's are crap is a comment that only an uneducated person would say!
Also, your comment on motion problems is way wrong. IF you read the review of the Sony LCD XBR4 on Cnet you will see that in the performance categorie theymention that the XBR4's motionflow technology SEVERLY outclassed the pioneers smooth mode when it came to motion. And I can attest to this having both in my home. In my opinion, 120hz has almost evened the motion smoothness gap between Plasma and LCD. Plasma still wins becasue of pixel responce time (not to be confused with hz or refresh rate) This is becasue plasma pixels take alot less time to run a cycle( from on to off, and then back to on). So LCD just refreshes the pixels more often (at 120hz) to narrow the gap.

This thread was not meant to bash LCD or Plasma. It was meant oto talk about 1080p vs 720p. So please stop LCD bashing.
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post #821 of 1468 Old 01-20-2008, 04:08 AM
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After having the following within the same year:

1. Small 37" 720P LCD (Sharp d43)
2. Small 37" 1080P LCD (Sharp d62/GP1U)
3. Large 60" 1080P Plasma (Pioneer Pro-150FD)
4. Large 52" 1080P LCD (Sharp D92)
5. 40 inch 720P CRT Sony XBR (One monster TUBE! 304 pounds - KV40XBR800)

I can say this:

1. 1080P hardly makes a difference at 37 inches unless you're 3 feet away.
2. 1080P only makes a difference on a 52-inch LCD only on BRIGHT scenes, but it's definitely noticeable in these instances, especially the sharpness.
3. Most of the 1080P difference on the HUGE plasma is to combat Screen-Door effect, so size/viewing distance matter. This seems regardless of scene brightness.
4. 720P content on a 1080P LCD sucks (pixels distorted/blurry), but 1080P content on 720P LCD is good.
5. 720P content on a 1080P Plasma is great! I've read 1080P content on 720P plasma is great too.
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post #822 of 1468 Old 01-20-2008, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

After having the following within the same year:

1. Small 37" 720P LCD (Sharp d43)
2. Small 37" 1080P LCD (Sharp d62/GP1U)
3. Large 60" 1080P Plasma (Pioneer Pro-150FD)
4. Large 52" 1080P LCD (Sharp D92)
5. 40 inch 720P CRT Sony XBR (One monster TUBE! 304 pounds - KV40XBR800)

I can say this:

1. 1080P hardly makes a difference at 37 inches unless you're 3 feet away.
2. 1080P only makes a difference on a 52-inch LCD only on BRIGHT scenes, but it's definitely noticeable in these instances, especially the sharpness.
3. Most of the 1080P difference on the HUGE plasma is to combat Screen-Door effect, so size/viewing distance matter. This seems regardless of scene brightness.
4. 720P content on a 1080P LCD sucks (pixels distorted/blurry), but 1080P content on 720P LCD is good.
5. 720P content on a 1080P Plasma is great! I've read 1080P content on 720P plasma is great too.

I would not base LCD opinions on what you see on a Sharp LCD. 720p looks great on my XBR4. But then again you are not seeing 720p on a 1080p television anyway. A 1080p TV just upscales a 720p signal to its 1080p native resolution before display. So what you are seeing is upscaled 1080p. If this looks bad then more than likely it was because the TV does not do a good job scaling (and Sharps are not known for thier processing). But My XBR4 does very good at this. This is one of the reasons I bought a Bravia. THe Sony Bravias do better job upscaling than any LCD out there in my opinion. If you are wanting LCD I would either go with a new Samsung 71f/81f or a Sony XBR4/5. These two are the best LCD's hands down.
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post #823 of 1468 Old 01-29-2008, 10:53 AM
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I'm in desperate need of some help here - I'm suffering brainlock in trying to decide on a TV. I'm trying to decide between these two TV's:

47" Toshiba Regza 1080p 47hl167 LCD
50" Panasonic TH50px75u Plasma

I sit about 14' from the TV and don't have a Blu Ray player currently, nor do I play any games on it. I like the Panasonic due to the larger size (I currently have a 51 inch Projection TV) and the Consumer Reports recommendation. I like the Toshiba since the size is close, and I will have the 1080p technology.

Any suggestions that might help me?
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post #824 of 1468 Old 01-29-2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDoles View Post

I'm in desperate need of some help here - I'm suffering brainlock in trying to decide on a TV. I'm trying to decide between these two TV's:

47" Toshiba Regza 1080p 47hl167 LCD
50" Panasonic TH50px75u Plasma

I sit about 14' from the TV and don't have a Blu Ray player currently, nor do I play any games on it. I like the Panasonic due to the larger size (I currently have a 51 inch Projection TV) and the Consumer Reports recommendation. I like the Toshiba since the size is close, and I will have the 1080p technology.

Any suggestions that might help me?

You'll be very happy with the Panny. At 14' you would not receive any benefit from 1080p. Also, if you aren't connecting a computer or HD video player or HD game console you don't have any 1080p sources anyway.

The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out.
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post #825 of 1468 Old 01-30-2008, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Just as a general clarification to all:

When the term "futureproofing" is brought up in relation to this topic, the term is only useful if it is being applied to the question of content availability, as in "If we get much more 1080p content in the next few years, a 1080p panel might make better sense for me because my seating distance is often close enough to the screen that I would benefit from the panels higher resolution capability", as opposed to the term being used in the context of "Oh no, I'll be stuck with a tv that cannot play all this new 1080p content because it's only 720p or 768p!"

The former hypothetical quote is the correct question to be asking yourself, vs. the latter hypothetical, which is totally erroneous and NOTHING AT ALL to be concerned about. In this second scenario, you'll still be able to play all 1080p content, but your panel will scale down this higher resolution to match your panels own native (i.e. inherent or built-in) resolution.

Whether or not this second scenario will be a noticably downgraded viewing experience for you will once again revert back to the all-important question of your screen size in relation to your viewing distance, and perhaps, your panels ability to scale other resolutions. (See the chart I've linked to in the very first post for your review).

And then, even if you are able to appreciate the difference from your typical viewing distance, how much more are you willing to spend for the amount of difference you see? These last two questions can only be answered by you and you alone. Well, you and any significant others.

Exactly post, and certainly worthy of taking notes!
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post #826 of 1468 Old 01-30-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

After having the following within the same year:

1. Small 37" 720P LCD (Sharp d43)
2. Small 37" 1080P LCD (Sharp d62/GP1U)
3. Large 60" 1080P Plasma (Pioneer Pro-150FD)
4. Large 52" 1080P LCD (Sharp D92)
5. 40 inch 720P CRT Sony XBR (One monster TUBE! 304 pounds - KV40XBR800)

I can say this:

1. 1080P hardly makes a difference at 37 inches unless you're 3 feet away.
2. 1080P only makes a difference on a 52-inch LCD only on BRIGHT scenes, but it's definitely noticeable in these instances, especially the sharpness.
3. Most of the 1080P difference on the HUGE plasma is to combat Screen-Door effect, so size/viewing distance matter. This seems regardless of scene brightness.
4. 720P content on a 1080P LCD sucks (pixels distorted/blurry), but 1080P content on 720P LCD is good.
5. 720P content on a 1080P Plasma is great! I've read 1080P content on 720P plasma is great too.

Nambit, your #5 - 40XBR800 HDTV CRT is "1080i" and not "720p". Other than that, I agree on your assessment.
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post #827 of 1468 Old 02-12-2008, 08:52 AM
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ive owned the XBR4, 71F, and now the Kuro 5080 720p set. What are my findings? Read below
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My final review of the 71F vs the Kuro 5080HD.

I finally was able to do some real testing between the Kuro and 71F, next to one another, in a dark room and bright room from 8-9feet. The picture quality was close, I mean, nearly identical in bright conditions and the black levels of the 71F matched the Kuro in bright conditions. The 71F truly is a beast of an LCD in the bright. From 8 feet, 1080p did not make a difference, I mean not even a hair in my or my fiances eyes. When I sat within 3 feet, the LCD looked cleaner, especially since the pixels on LCDs are much smaller, but also suprisingly, I could see more fine details on the Kuro. Colors were close, but on the plasma color was a bit deeper, but not by a lot. Shadow detail was even.

At night it was a different story. I put transformers on, with a bright colorful scene and picture quality was nearly identical. I then put on gears of war, and put it on level 3 in caves. A couple things. I viewed it on the 71F first, and I thought well the black levels look pretty good. I then tried the kuro and thats where the huge advantage was. The Kuro at night looked much more deep, bold, and actually sharper. the LCD looked flat in comparison. another thing I noticed that I didnt before, was the blacks on the 71F had a slight blue tint whereas the Kuro had a pure black look.

I then compared Crank on bluray on a scene with a close up of Jason statham in the pool. In the past ive taken shots on the XBR4 and 71F, and now the Kuro. to my suprise again, I couldnt notice anything less sharp on the Kuro, it looked every bit as resolved and detailed as the 1080p xbr4 and 71f. I thought with 768p, fine wrinkles wouldnt be as visible as on the 1080p LCDS, but this was not the case, not as all. in fact, I cant wait to review the pictures I took to make the comparison, the Kuro looked very sharp and detailed. BTW Im running the Kuro on 1080p upscaled.

When I told my friend Im going to exchange the 71F for the Kuro he thought I was crazy for exchanging a top of the line 1080p lCD with 120hz for a 768p plasma. In my experience, they are very close in performance, especially during the day where its about even minus the colors and slightly more defined look of the Kuro, but even then, you have to seriously sit there and analyze the picture with a magnifying glass to notice.

Comparing the smooth modes of both tvs was an easy decision. The lcds 120hz proccessing with de-judder blows away the smooth mode of the pioneer. smooth mode works almost as good as LOW AMP setting. On the flip side, games were more responsive on the plasma. I didnt notice any delay witht he LCD before, but now that Ive tried on both, the plasma is more reponsive, and even more when AMP is engaged on anything more than LOW.

So in the end, in bright conditions the difference is so small, only videophiles would notice. At night, its still close, unless you are watching a dark scene, and in that regard its not even close. Ive also noticed 1080p was only a real benefit when I sat within 4 feet (which I would never). Also, despite my previous thought, the PLasma pops just as much as the LCD, and even more than it at night with dark scenes. Screen unifority seemed even, but viewing angles were better on the plasma, since blacks did not fade from the side on the plasma. Also, the plasma picture quality seemed a bit more natural looking, which I prefer.

Oh and did I mention how impressed I am with the TV speaker of the Kuro. Its really sounds amazing for a TV speaker. Looks better with it on unless you mounted your set.

Honestly, I would like to keep both since I really like the AMP feature of the LCD, but since I cant, I will return the LCD finally in a couple of days. I will check out the 6series LCD to see what improvement have been made. Ideally I would like some variety in the house, and have one tv that can do de-judder and 120hz processing like the LCDs do. I dont know though, I have def. become a believer in pioneer.

By the way, this is not intended to downplay LCDs or put the Kuro on a pedestal. I know a lot of people view this thread before purchasing a TV, and I thought I'd share my experience. Both are def worth owning, but in the end, unless you are really into the AMP feature, the Kuro wins hands down in every category nearly by a hair (with the exeption of black levels in a pitch black room). Also, I can confirm that despite my previous thoughts, 1080p on a 50" set from 8-9 feet away is not a benefit for the most part, and there are alot of other factors that decide how detailed a picture is. I used to think resolution was the only factor why all the fine details stuck out. And also in my experience, the LCD does not pop more because its brighter. The plasma can pop out just as much, and in some cases more.

I took a bunch of pictures that came out crappy, but I'll try to post later if I have time, unless you guys dont care to see'em.
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post #828 of 1468 Old 02-19-2008, 07:45 PM
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Different TV's give different results as we seen here regardless of the resolution. I think the point that was made here that seemed to prove my point stressed is when the same TV a 46 inch Samsung 1080p went against the 46 inch 768p Samsung with the same Blu Ray player and the same Blu Ray disk movie, nothing stood out right away as to what was better and the people were picking the 768p set and some the 1080p set.
An above poster mentioned that more resolution is better, obviously he did not read through this entire thread, especially when it comes to 720p signals.
Matching the resolution of the set etc, 720p is clearly better in some situations. I seen 720 look better when it up scales anamorphic DVDs when the HD DVD player is set to 720 rather than 1080p, this has to do with asking less of the disk. Both sets have their moments, but the blind test said a lot with the Samsung sets, and since 720 signals match 720 sets better than going into 1080, and I seen 480 look better on 720 than 1080, leaves not a doubt in my mind that overall 720p is better feature for feature, you can beat the dead horse all you want, but when CC admitted that the 720p sets sold more because consumers didn't see the justification in the price hike, it said it all.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #829 of 1468 Old 02-25-2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

Different TV's give different results as we seen here regardless of the resolution. I think the point that was made here that seemed to prove my point stressed is when the same TV a 46 inch Samsung 1080p went against the 46 inch 768p Samsung with the same Blu Ray player and the same Blu Ray disk movie, nothing stood out right away as to what was better and the people were picking the 768p set and some the 1080p set.
An above poster mentioned that more resolution is better, obviously he did not read through this entire thread, especially when it comes to 720p signals.
Matching the resolution of the set etc, 720p is clearly better in some situations. I seen 720 look better when it up scales anamorphic DVDs when the HD DVD player is set to 720 rather than 1080p, this has to do with asking less of the disk. Both sets have their moments, but the blind test said a lot with the Samsung sets, and since 720 signals match 720 sets better than going into 1080, and I seen 480 look better on 720 than 1080, leaves not a doubt in my mind that overall 720p is better feature for feature, you can beat the dead horse all you want, but when CC admitted that the 720p sets sold more because consumers didn't see the justification in the price hike, it said it all.

- A 46" TV is not a large enough display to distinguish the difference between 720p and 1080p of more than 8' viewing distance.
- A 720p TV will show up scale standard DVD better than 1080p TV - Of course because it has less lines to fill
- Personally I'd rather have a 1080p TV to upconvert 480/720p signal (from DVD, ABC, Fox etc) than have a 720p TV to down convert a 1080i/p signal (HD-DVD, NBC, CBS etc)..
- More 720p set was sold because 1080p set was not as abundant and the price was almost double - THEN

I think chadmak09 said it best and I quote:
"Resolution matters people!!!! I don't understand why everyone keeps putting resolution as number 4 and 5 on the importance list. It should be higher.
If resolution is not important then we should all drop HDTV's all together and go back to the CRT days becasue as most know, the Color, contrast, black levels are much better on a CRT.
So why did we all go HD? The answer is RESOLUTION!! The higher the resolution the sharper the picture and more detail.
720p is great but it is not 1080p."
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post #830 of 1468 Old 02-25-2008, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyP View Post

- A 720p TV will show up scale standard DVD better than 1080p TV - Of course because it has less lines to fill

Turns out this is not true. This has actually been discussed earlier in the thread. It is the quality of the scaler that has the bigger effect on the result, not the number of pixels the image has to be stretched by. In fact, in theory, the more pixels you have to work with, the better the final result can look - given enough processing power.
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post #831 of 1468 Old 02-25-2008, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Turns out this is not true. This has actually been discussed earlier in the thread. It is the quality of the scaler that has the bigger effect on the result, not the number of pixels the image has to be stretched by. In fact, in theory, the more pixels you have to work with, the better the final result can look - given enough processing power.

Maybe, but we are talking about the same quality of the scaler. Even then, logically, the more pixels will just fill up the screen by multiplying the original source - It really doesn't add any new info. Let's just analyze for just one frame of SD source (720x480)
- Upconvert for 720p TV (1280x720), the line are multiply vertically (simplified term) by 1.5 (480x1.5=720) and horizontally by 1.78 (720x1.77=1280).
- Upconvert for 1080p TV (1920x1080), the line are multiply vertically (simplify term) by 2.25 (480x2.25=1080) and horizontally by 2.67 (720x2.67=1920)

- 720p = 1.5x1.78 = 2.67 or 267% of NO new info being added to the screen.
-1080p = 2.25x2.67 = 6 or 600% of NO new info being added to the screen.

To me, a source would yield the best result if being displayed closest to its original content i.e
- SD source via CRT TV, 720p TV
- 720p source (ABC, FOX) via 720p TV, 1080p TV (but not 1080i/p signal on 720p TV)
- 1080i/p source (HD-DVD, NBC, CBS) via 1080p TV

I never thought of downscaling as it's taking resolution off the original content

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post #832 of 1468 Old 02-26-2008, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyP View Post

Maybe, but we are talking about the same quality of the scaler.

In theory I suppose, but at the same time, a higher-end 1080p display could easily be packaged with the better processor also. And certainly once you cross brands or display technologies all bets are off. Bottom line is that a particular 1080p display could show a 480p or 720p signal as good or better than a 720p one.

Quote:


Even then, logically, the more pixels will just fill up the screen by multiplying the original source - It really doesn't add any new info.

Right - assuming a "dumb" scaler, of which there are probably many, sure. But even if they were all of dumb variety, not adding new info (as you said), they certainly are not subtracting any info either. In other words the extra pixels aren't hurting a thing.

Now, real world, there are some really smart scalers, and they are becoming much more common. These actually do some very intelligent things with the extra display pixels. For example - they use the extra pixels to smooth out edges that would otherwise appear rough.

Quote:


To me, a source would yield the best result if being displayed closest to its original content i.e

Well then we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I really recommend you read this entire thread as there are some comments by folks who do this stuff for a living and they have made some posts that are really very informative. Additionally, more information can be found in the video processor forum.
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post #833 of 1468 Old 02-26-2008, 09:08 AM
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Thanks for your reply mkoesel,

I've been reading and kept on refer back to post #316 and #246 by bfdtv - who always has been informative with his post (and of course yours too ). The link in post #246 especially is the best article about this HDTV /resolution discussion. I'd like to add it here
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...07-part-1.html

Two more comments I'd like to make

1. I do own both 720p (42" apex) and 1080p (56" jvc) TV - here's what I notice as I actually sit close to the Apex:
- Watching SD on cable leaving picture at 4:3 - the Apex is clearly better
- Watching SD DVD - the Apex is slightly better
- Watching 720p content (ABC, FOX) - Wash
- Watching 1080i/p content (NBC, CBS, HD-DVD) - the JVC is clearly better.

Now, forget resolution, with popular belief that better scaler would do a better job on 480i source? - I don't even think that the cheap Apex has better scaler than the jvc which is a very nice 56fn97 model. Could it be the screensize difference? I mentioned that I sit closer to the Apex since it's smaller.

2. I am quite surprise that the mod don't do anything with posts that has mis-informations (especially by Sole_Survivor). Now I am not saying everything he says is wrong, as there are some good points he made. But can the mod remove or at least red flag bad/mis-information posts as such.

Regards,
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post #834 of 1468 Old 02-26-2008, 09:04 PM
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Hey guys, I have a question for you. My parents are wanting to buy a 50" plasma for their downstairs. I'm suggesting the Pioneer Kuro 1080HD because of all the great reviews I've read on this site and others. However they are worried that 720p isn't very future-proof for things like blu-ray. Would you suggest the Kuro or a different 1080p set in the same price range?
Thanks
Mike
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post #835 of 1468 Old 02-29-2008, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyP View Post

Now, forget resolution, with popular belief that better scaler would do a better job on 480i source? - I don't even think that the cheap Apex has better scaler than the jvc which is a very nice 56fn97 model. Could it be the screensize difference? I mentioned that I sit closer to the Apex since it's smaller.

Regards,

It truly is scaler AND screen size related. You are not comparing apples to apples. Your JVC is 25% larger than your Apex - more screen area allowing you to notice the imperfections. Given equal screen sizes, I'd bet the JVC would run circles around the Apex.
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post #836 of 1468 Old 02-29-2008, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dmikester1 View Post

Hey guys, I have a question for you. My parents are wanting to buy a 50" plasma for their downstairs. I'm suggesting the Pioneer Kuro 1080HD because of all the great reviews I've read on this site and others. However they are worried that 720p isn't very future-proof for things like blu-ray. Would you suggest the Kuro or a different 1080p set in the same price range?
Thanks
Mike

Do you mean the 5080HD?
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post #837 of 1468 Old 02-29-2008, 07:27 AM
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Thanks Nmlobo

Back to post number 52 by OreoJoe.
Couple of questions:
1. Isn't HD-DVD BluRay always has 1080p24?
2. Isn't all the 1080p TV has 60hz refresh rate. Should the signal be always convert to 1080p60 at the end?

I am a little confused at the 1080p24 and 1080p30 end result or does it mean that's the signal being fed to the TV set?

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Originally Posted by OreoJoe View Post


1080p

HD-DVD, BluRay, game consoles, HDPC.
1080p60, 1080p30 signals: no conversion on a 1080p set

Film to video.
A 1080p24 film input is converted for display with no lost information:
1080p24 -> 1080i48 -> 1080i60 -> 1080p30 (telecine + deinterlace)

For a 1080i signal:
1080i60 -> 1080p30 for native video source (deinterlace)
1080i60 -> 1080p24 for film source (deinterlace + inverse telecine)

For a 720p signal:
720p60 -> 1080p60 (upconversion)
720p24 -> 720i48 -> 720i60 -> 1080i60 -> 1080p30 (telecine + upconversion + deinterlace)

720p

HD-DVD, BluRay, game consoles, HDPC.
1080p60, 1080p30 signals: downconversion on a 720p set

For a 1080i signal:
1080i60 -> 1080p30 -> 720p30 for native video source (deinterlace + conversion)
1080i60 -> 1080p24 -> 720p24 for film source (deinterlace + inverse telecine + conversion)

For a 720p signal:
720p60 no conversion

Summary
1080p favors high resolution sources and 1080i broadcast.
720p favors 720p broadcast.

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post #838 of 1468 Old 03-10-2008, 06:25 AM
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I am torn between 720p and 1080p. Here is some info:

- 42" screen size (maybe a 46" at most, definite limit).
- Viewing distance of 9 to 11 feet
- No blu-ray player (don't watch many normal DVDs anyways) and don't plan to get a blu-ray player until prices fall to a reasonable ~$100.
- No PS3 or Xbox360
- Watch mostly CNN, FOX, HBO, Showtime, and OnDemand movies on FiOS (will be getting the HD receiver)

So, basically, we need a panel for cable TV using a FiOS HD receiver. What are some recommendations on 720p vs. 1080p in this situation as I am truly lost here.
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post #839 of 1468 Old 03-10-2008, 11:23 AM
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^ There are no 1080p sources available OTA or via cable or satellite. If you aren't getting a PS3, Xbox 360, Blu-ray or HD DVD player then the only possible 1080p source available to you would be if you used the tv as a computer monitor. Chances are slim that there will be any cable, OTA or satellite sources outputting 1080p any time in the foreseeable future.

The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out.
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post #840 of 1468 Old 03-10-2008, 03:30 PM
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^ There are no 1080p sources available OTA or via cable or satellite. If you aren't getting a PS3, Xbox 360, Blu-ray or HD DVD player then the only possible 1080p source available to you would be if you used the tv as a computer monitor. Chances are slim that there will be any cable, OTA or satellite sources outputting 1080p any time in the foreseeable future.

I've read that HD Cable programming is 1080i and better viewed on a 1080p set. Is that true?
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