LCD Flat Panels Are Getting There..BUT... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 303 Old 09-11-2007, 07:02 PM
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Glad to see that the thread has been moved to this forum, where all the LCDemons and Plasmaniacs can duke it out at a neutral venue.

Now folks, the next gen of plasmas, from Pioneer, Panasonic, and others are going to make it very interesting, and will start to reclaim market share with vastly improved product lines. Can you say ten lumen, boys and girls?. By this time in 2008 you will be able to purchase a 42inch 1080P Plasma, with blacks as deep as this year's Kuro line, that will have all the brightness levels you will need, and they will also be super energy efficient, and very low priced. You will be able to purchase one for less than $1,000.00. That is just the start. Large 4000P resolution panels are in the works, as are 20inch 1080P panels that will use less than 70W.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post11592012

Off course you will be able to watch them, in bright or dark rooms, have the advantage of superior off axis viewing, and they will cost far less.

I sure hope that the LCD producers have counter moves up their sleeves, because competition is a win win for us consumers. The more agressive the competition, the faster we get better products at reasonable prices.

PS. More 10 lumen discussion and information.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post11303508
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post #92 of 303 Old 09-11-2007, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

That is just the start. Large 4000P resolution panels are in the works, as are 20inch 1080P panels that will use less than 70W.

20 inch plasma panels...that would be interesting...I wonder if the companies producing these would consider making panels for PC monitors....it would give some alternatives for people in the market for PC monitors...although PC LCD monitors are at 30 inches now so Plasma companies could do a widescreen version from say 22 to 30 or even up to 40 inches.....if they put the new display port video input than desktop resolutions could really increase....
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post #93 of 303 Old 09-11-2007, 07:37 PM
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20 inch plasma panels...that would be interesting...I wonder if the companies producing these would consider making panels for PC monitors....it would give some alternatives for people in the market for PC monitors...although PC LCD monitors are at 30 inches now so Plasma companies could do a widescreen version from say 22 to 30 or even up to 40 inches.....if they put the new display port video input than desktop resolutions could really increase....

I think the smaller 1080P displays are probably more than a year away. Pioneer, Panasonic, and Hitachi will roll out the new, vastly improved large panels next year. I added another link, where you can read more comments from D-Nice about what is in the pipeline. It all looks fantastic, and will be a great help in energy usage.
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post #94 of 303 Old 09-11-2007, 08:06 PM
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10 lumen sounds pretty cool. I know brightness goes up and that's okay I guess. Motion might improve. A potentially cooler and more energy efficent TV sounds neat-o. How much actual of an improvement boost are we looking at for the home theater enthusiast?

I am sure it isn't going to be a jump like the 7g to the 8g I assume, from a Pio perspective correct?

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post #95 of 303 Old 09-11-2007, 10:13 PM
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I'm gonna go ahead and stir the pot. I mentioned it in another thread but it got locked so I'm saying it again.

I can't believe some of the LCD BS I'm reading. Please get off this you have to be in a cave to enjoy plasma BS. You can keep telling yourself that but it simply not true.

Does LCD have an advantage in a VERY bright room? Yes. But are your living rooms VERY bright? As bright as a Best Buy sales floor? I doubt it.

I don't know about you guys but I work 9-5, which means I'm not home at 2pm watching TV. I'm usually watching TV between 6-9pm and sun is going down around that time. Light is not an issue for me, I think its safe to say a lot of people are in this same situation.

I've owned a Sharp Aquos for a few years now so I think I've given LCD a fair shot and I have taken another look at them and the bottom line is I won't be buying another for my own personal reasons.

So please stop with the lists (and the false information) as the plasma boys can come up with their own and respect that fact that different people require/prefer different technologies.
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post #96 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 07:16 AM
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I don't know about you guys but I work 9-5, which means I'm not home at 2pm watching TV. I'm usually watching TV between 6-9pm and sun is going down around that time. Light is not an issue for me, I think its safe to say a lot of people are in this same situation.

I work from home - telecommute to California. Generally this means I'm sitting on my couch from 8am-7pm in front of 2 11 foot high windows, so yeah... the brightness issue matters to me. But hey, that's just me.

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post #97 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 07:22 AM
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i'm just guessing here, but i'd wager there's a lot more people in the 9-5 situation than the 11 foot window telecommuting situation... besides the fact that if you are telecommuting, you are supposed to be working, not watching tv...

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post #98 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 07:25 AM
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For what it's worth, I sort of agree with the original sentiment. LCDs still have a long way to go until they're what I think a lot of us want.

As much as I love my Samsung LN-T4081, it's easy to see what 3 years of development on locally dimmed LED backlighting will bring us. The 4081 does start to fall apart contrast-wise as you go increasingly off-axis, with LD Glow becoming more and more apparent. While modern movies with a high degree of contrast can look fantastic in terms of black levels, microcontrast within "average" scenes is still not stellar. As the LED BLU zones get smaller and more numerous LD Glow will become less apparent, and in combination with better LCD displays that can block out even more BLU and colored LED zones image quality will just go through the roof.

The writing is on the wall for Plasma, but LCD-TVs still have a ways to go before they're the obvious choice for everyone.
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post #99 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

besides the fact that if you are telecommuting, you are supposed to be working, not watching tv...

I mainly use it for perusing my music collection via the Apple TV during the day. The Apple TV looks absolutely outstanding on that set.
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post #100 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 08:00 AM
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Make some drapes.
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post #101 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 09:04 AM
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LCDs are getting much better, but for those who make statements, such as: "the writing is on the wall for plasmas" you are in for a rude awakening. The upcoming CES 2008 will refute those claims, Big break throughts have been incorporated into 2008 plasma panels, and that will just be the start. Just because LCDs are making large improvements, that does not mean that the Plasma makers have been standing still. They have joined together for joint R&D plasma improvements. The results will start to be unveiled at CES,and many more to follow. Both LCD and Plasma will survive.
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post #102 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 09:08 AM
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Big break throughts have been incorporated into 2008 plasma panels, and that will just be the start.

Such as?
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post #103 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 09:56 AM
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post #104 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 10:19 AM
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I did not see any "big" break throughs - brighter and purer gas------or did I miss something?
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post #105 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 10:32 AM
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post #106 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 10:51 AM
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I already gave you that in the first link. I spelled out what will be in the 2008 panels. I gave you links to a lot more. I am not going to spoon feed you. Wait until CES. It is just a few months away.
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post #107 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 11:05 AM
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I already gave you that in the first link. I spelled out what will be in the 2008 panels. I gave you links to a lot more. I am not going to spoon feed you. Wait until CES. It is just a few months away.

Right, because everyone here has loads of time to comb through a long thread, a patent document and a single image to get what your point is. :lol: Gimme a break.

So, big changes are coming but you can't sum them up in say, a 3 line list. Gotcha.
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post #108 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Idjiit View Post

Right, because everyone here has loads of time to comb through a long thread, a patent document and a single image to get what your point is. :lol: Gimme a break.

So, big changes are coming but you can't sum them up in say, a 3 line list. Gotcha.

I summed it up in the first link. Sorry if that is too difficult for you to grasp. You are the one, that just wrote " the writing is on the wall for plasma". Since you now admit, that you are too lazy to do any actual reading about what is happening in plasma developments, that reveals you to be one who just likes to make absolutest declarations based on absolutely no facts, just lazy assumptions on your part. Gotcha. Like I said, I am not going to spoon feed you, especially after you had already put yourself forward as an informed judge on the future of plasmas.CES will reveal more on the future of plasma.
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post #109 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Idjiit View Post

Right, because everyone here has loads of time to comb through a long thread, a patent document and a single image to get what your point is. :lol: Gimme a break.

So, big changes are coming but you can't sum them up in say, a 3 line list. Gotcha.

I am with greenland on this one. Lets wait for CES to answer all of these questions for us.
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post #110 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 11:30 AM
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I summed it up in the first link. Sorry if that is too difficult for you to grasp. You are the one, that just wrote " the writing is on the wall for plasma". Since you now admit, that you are too lazy to do any actual reading about what is happening in plasma developments, that reveals you to be one who just likes to make absolutest declarations based on absolutely no facts, just lazy assumptions on your part. Gotcha. Like I said, I am not going to spoon feed you, especially after you had already put yourself forward as an informed judge on the future of plasmas.CES will reveal more on the future of plasma.

Look, LCD tech is in the midst of making a major leap in all areas of image quality with the introduction of Locally Dimmed LED backlighting. The 81 Series Samsungs are the tip of the iceberg - any idiot can look at the Brightside stuff and demonstrations of tri-color Locally Dimmed sets to see where LED tech is going to go over the years - better micro contrast, wider gamut, brighter sets, etc.

I'm not a Plasma expert, but I have not seen anything to indicate that Plasma is on the verge of taking a similar leap in technology. If I'm wrong, feel free to prove it - I'm all ears. That's why I asked in the first place. Posting links is just laziness on your part, not mine.
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post #111 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Idjiit View Post

Look, LCD tech is in the midst of making a major leap in all areas of image quality with the introduction of Locally Dimmed LED backlighting. The 81 Series Samsungs are the tip of the iceberg - any idiot can look at the Brightside stuff and demonstrations of tri-color Locally Dimmed sets to see where LED tech is going to go over the years - better micro contrast, wider gamut, brighter sets, etc.

I'm not a Plasma expert, but I have not seen anything to indicate that Plasma is on the verge of taking a similar leap in technology. If I'm wrong, feel free to prove it - I'm all ears. That's why I asked in the first place. Posting links is just laziness on your part, not mine.

You are the one that declared that the writing is on the wall for plasmas. Now you say that your autopsy results were based on not having examined the body. Fine. I am through with you, and I am not about to write to your "ears". The links are there for those that want to dig deeper. You do not. That is perfectly acceptable. Wait for the CES reports. Neither LCD or Plasma are going away. Like I said before, I want both to push each other, because that is a win win for consumers.
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post #112 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

You are the one that declared that the writing is on the wall for plasmas. Now you say that your autopsy results were based on not having examined the body.

I see plasma still continuing a downward trend in sales. But I also am aware the best TV out there right now is the Pio. Problem is its hard too see folks taking home a Pio to the trailer park. Its has exclusive clients that love home theatre set-ups. Plasma IMO will become a special market where LCD will have the volume of sales.

Now whats better? The Pio is.

These are just my opinions.
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post #113 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 12:43 PM
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You are the one that declared that the writing is on the wall for plasmas. Now you say that your autopsy results were based on not having examined the body.

Jesus, whatever.

I read through what you posted - fine, thank you. My statement wasn't intended to say that Plasma tech is dead. The point was that whereas LCD tech is making a new, fundamental jump in moving away from CCFL's to LED Plasma is not and doesn't appear to be on the verge of doing so. Your posts actually back that up since they're just describing refinements to how Plasmas currently work - are they significant refinements? It sounds like it. But are they fundamental changes? Doesn't sound like it to me.

The ways in which LED backlighting can be used is pretty wide open - Apple's displays are current just using "static" white LEDs, Samsungs are using locally dimmed white LED with a limited number of zones, Sony's are tricolor but not locally dimmed, etc. The fundamental shift away from CCFL to LED opens up a whole new set of improvements that will continue to be refined for years to come.

The question ultimately is whether you can expect such fundamental changes in Plasma tech - and even given the URLs you provided I would have to say the answer is no. But I'm no Plasma expert, so I may be wrong.
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post #114 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I see plasma still continuing a downward trend in sales. But I also am aware the best TV out there right now is the Pio. Problem is its hard too see folks taking home a Pio to the trailer park. Its has exclusive clients that love home theatre set-ups. Plasma IMO will become a special market where LCD will have the volume of sales.

Now whats better? The Pio is.

I totally agree with that. And it is kind of sad, but ya know that's life. Pioneers seem to be the best in class at the moment but I don't think many people will notice or care that aren't home theater freaks.

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Jesus, whatever.

I read through what you posted - fine, thank you. My statement wasn't intended to say that Plasma tech is dead. The point was that whereas LCD tech is making a new, fundamental jump in moving away from CCFL's to LED Plasma is not and doesn't appear to be on the verge of doing so. Your posts actually back that up since they're just describing refinements to how Plasmas currently work - are they significant refinements? It sounds like it. But are they fundamental changes? Doesn't sound like it to me.

The ways in which LED backlighting can be used is pretty wide open - Apple's displays are current just using "static" white LEDs, Samsungs are using locally dimmed white LED with a limited number of zones, Sony's are tricolor but not locally dimmed, etc. The fundamental shift away from CCFL to LED opens up a whole new set of improvements that will continue to be refined for years to come.

The question ultimately is whether you can expect such fundamental changes in Plasma tech - and even given the URLs you provided I would have to say the answer is no. But I'm no Plasma expert, so I may be wrong.

I agree Idjit. LED in terms of the local dimming kind is going to be good if the improvements continue. Picky Home theater enthusiasts will be satisified if developments are made.

I personally can't wait to see OLED myself and where LED tech takes LCDs.

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post #115 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 01:47 PM
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10 lumen combined with Kuro in next year's very large Pioneer panels will provide both store display brightness levels as well as local dimming at the individual pixel level, and will not require a lot of processing gimmicks to eliminate two out of three footballs. Wide receivers will be less confused about which Pioneer football to grasp at.
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post #116 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idjiit View Post

Right, because everyone here has loads of time to comb through a long thread, a patent document and a single image to get what your point is. :lol: Gimme a break.

So, big changes are coming but you can't sum them up in say, a 3 line list. Gotcha.

I'm not sure about next years models but a full magnitude change in luminence efficiency is a breakthrough for any display technology. This is a huge leap in technology. I can't state how important this breakthrough is. Only that is affects everything from manufacturing costs to contrast to resolution and even color reproduction. You name it, efficiency is the holy grail of display technology. I still have my doubts we will see the benefits by next year though........

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post #117 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

10 lumen combined with Kuro in next year's very large Pioneer panels will provide both store display brightness levels as well as local dimming at the individual pixel level, and will not require a lot of processing gimmicks to eliminate two out of three footballs. Wide receivers will be less confused about which Pioneer football to grasp at.

So we should expect another black level drop? Haha. What is it now.. Kuro 2.0?

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post #118 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Idjiit View Post

The 81 Series Samsungs are the tip of the iceberg - any idiot can look at the Brightside stuff and demonstrations of tri-color Locally Dimmed sets to see where LED tech is going to go over the years - better micro contrast, wider gamut, brighter sets, etc.

What about an IDJIIT?

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I'm not a Plasma expert, but I have not seen anything to indicate that Plasma is on the verge of taking a similar leap in technology. If I'm wrong, feel free to prove it - I'm all ears. That's why I asked in the first place. Posting links is just laziness on your part, not mine.

The Kuros already leapfrogged over the best LCD's.
Next!

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post #119 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 02:23 PM
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So we should expect another black level drop? Haha. What is it now.. Kuro 2.0?

Well I am sure that they will improve the black levels in the future. Nothing is every perfect, or there would not be new models every year.

You will admit, that last year, many people would not believe that Pioneer would actually deliver on such a dramatic improvement in black levels from one year to the next. I am just having a bit of fun with those who keep telling us that LCD is going to be fantastic when the new breakthroughs are implemented properly, but never allow that Plasma breakthroughs can also make them fantastic. Pioneer proved this year that the plasma makers are capable of very significant innovations and dramatic improvements in their products. That is why I still think all this talk of either LCD or Plasma vanquishing the other is just a lot of silly blather.

You have taken a hard look at the state of the art panels for LCD or Plasma. Neither one is vastly superior to the other. What I keep hearing is wait until LCD really implements their stuff. Compared to what. The current best plasmas?. Well that is a silly comparison, because when the next gen of the best LCDs are released, they will have to compete with the next gen of the best plasmas, not the current ones.
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post #120 of 303 Old 09-12-2007, 02:36 PM
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I've seen the Kuros, and while I think they have better microcontrast than the 81 Series Samsungs, they don't have better black levels for certain content. And they don't make a 1080p set in the low 40 inch range. And ultimately, they all still "flash" at a relatively low rate which is the main reason why I never even considered a Plasma set. I know it doesn't bother most people, but that refreshing irritates the hell out of me - to each their own. I don't see engineers ever fixing that issue.
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