Stupid Question: Better Blacks LCD or Plasmas - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 09:05 AM
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I find it funny that so many LCD fans are jumping all over the 950 and other LED displays. Something that most people don't realize with these locally dimming sets is that the unevenly age when this feature is enabled. Normal LCD with it's always on backlight never had an issue with this, but with the advent of LED and lock dim tech, we have a new issue to worry about on LCD, burn-in from black bars and a break-in period. (something LCD fans always bring up as a major issue with plasma) LED bulbs age faster in the first 150 hours just like a plasma screen does, now what happens when someone watches a lot of black bar content during those first hours... you have unevenly aged the backlight and sped yourself along to uneven wear in the future. With most LED displays claiming 50,000 hours to half life (most plasma sets these days are 100,000 hours till halflife) uneven wear will start to show up much sooner then it will on current plasma displays like Panasonic's pz8 series for example. (more on par with the old px5 series from a few years back)

Now I am not bashing LCD tech (I plan on getting a 52 inch Sony LCD soon as I watch a lot of black bar movies that just don't agree with my current Panasonic 42px75 and I am tired of zooming in a lot of my movies) but this is a side effect of the LED local dim tech that everyone needs to be aware of. At least plasma has IR to warn you of a potential issue down the road, something that LCD doesn't do and you won't know that it is a potential problem until a few years down the road when you notice that the black bar area is brighter than the rest of the screen during a movie or a ball game.

I am sure that LCD fans will attack me for this (they have done so with everyone that has brought this up so far) but this is a genuine issue that people need to be aware of and needs to be discussed.

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post #122 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaun View Post

IMO a lot of that comes not from the broadcasters but from the errant color decoders most flat panels have. For me the effect mostly went away as soon as i activated and calibrated the isf modi on my Kuro. The US elite version have 'pure' mode which should also clear up a lot of those effects.

just my 2 cents.

I agree. On my Panasonic skin tones change constantly from red to good to green not just from channel to channel, but camera to camera. It is very noticeable and distracting.

I didn't have this problem with my old Hitachi RPCRT with the same channels. If it was a problem, it wasn't ever bad enough to notice.
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post #123 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 12:56 PM
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intresting ~ this thread drifted away from the OP question rather it went to dicussion about dawbacks and lcd tech and so fourth.

to be on point and answer plasma produce better blacks, as far as it would dim or "wash out" during ambient light is another thing, BUT it also happens with today's LCD because of the "GLOSSY SCREEN".

so pretty much once again plasma has better blacks then lcd ~ op Question answerd.

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post #124 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 05:54 PM
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I went to the store to get a plasma last week, but left with a 52" Samsung 750 LCD. The picture was glorious in the brightly lit store, but I have a little remorse due to off-angle viewing and black level in a dark room.

If the question is about black level when viewing in a dark room, plasma is the clear winner. In a moderately lit room, the 750's blacks are quite acceptable head-on, but get off angle 45 degrees or more, and blacks fade to unacceptable levels to my eyes.
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post #125 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 06:13 PM
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lol here we go again a comparison based on store.... natrualy the lcd is going to be brighter then the plasma but is not nessary good..... jpco you know the super bright pop is torch mode? vivid as in inaccurate super bright whites that are close to blues and so fourth?


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Originally Posted by jpco View Post

I went to the store to get a plasma last week, but left with a 52" Samsung 750 LCD. The picture was glorious in the brightly lit store, but I have a little remorse due to off-angle viewing and black level in a dark room.

If the question is about black level when viewing in a dark room, plasma is the clear winner. In a moderately lit room, the 750's blacks are quite acceptable head-on, but get off angle 45 degrees or more, and blacks fade to unacceptable levels to my eyes.


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post #126 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jpco View Post

I went to the store to get a plasma last week, but left with a 52" Samsung 750 LCD. The picture was glorious in the brightly lit store, but I have a little remorse due to off-angle viewing and black level in a dark room.

If the question is about black level when viewing in a dark room, plasma is the clear winner. In a moderately lit room, the 750's blacks are quite acceptable head-on, but get off angle 45 degrees or more, and blacks fade to unacceptable levels to my eyes.

The 750 is a beautiful display. It really is the sharpest, most vibrant, best looking picture in the retail setting. But as you say, it is not perfect. On an angle, even in the retail setting, I can see a bright blue cast on a black screen. The vertical viewing angle is down right awful from above. Luckily, no one mounts a TV below thier eye level

I'm interested to see the XBR8 and 950 but have some reservations about the LD artifacts.

Cheers

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post #127 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I find it funny that so many LCD fans are jumping all over the 950 and other LED displays. Something that most people don't realize with these locally dimming sets is that the unevenly age when this feature is enabled.

LED bulbs age faster in the first 150 hours just like a plasma screen does, now what happens when someone watches a lot of black bar content during those first hours... you have unevenly aged the backlight and sped yourself along to uneven wear in the future. With most LED displays claiming 50,000 hours to half life (most plasma sets these days are 100,000 hours till halflife) uneven wear will start to show up much sooner then it will on current plasma displays like Panasonic's pz8 series for example. (more on par with the old px5 series from a few years back)

Now I am not bashing LCD tech (I plan on getting a 52 inch Sony LCD soon as I watch a lot of black bar movies that just don't agree with my current Panasonic 42px75 and I am tired of zooming in a lot of my movies) but this is a side effect of the LED local dim tech that everyone needs to be aware of. At least plasma has IR to warn you of a potential issue down the road, something that LCD doesn't do and you won't know that it is a potential problem until a few years down the road when you notice that the black bar area is brighter than the rest of the screen during a movie or a ball game.

Just want to ask you about the first 150 hours comment, where does this come from?

I agree that uneven aging may be an issue, but even with only a 50Khr life or down to half brightness, do you really think that you will really notice this? After all that really is years of use for the average person. I think that the 100K of the newer plasmas is impressive, but after a certain point there really is no need to worry about it, you will never have it that long.

I am not sure about seeing the differences with the local dimming, time will tell. One of those things where I think that we should all sit back and let the pioneers take the arrows (no pun intended there to the Pio fans).
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post #128 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The 750 is a beautiful display. It really is the sharpest, most vibrant, best looking picture in the retail setting. But as you say, it is not perfect. On an angle, even in the retail setting, I can see a bright blue cast on a black screen. The vertical viewing angle is down right awful from above. Luckily, no one mounts a TV below thier eye level

Does the 750 have the gloss screen?
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post #129 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 08:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TNG View Post


I would like to spend more time looking at the Plasma side of the aile, but the posters who visit this section of AVS who are plasma supporters have really turned me off about even going there. Kinda like going to a political rally where everybody is chanting "PLASMA, PLASMA" or "KURO, KURO". From the way they talk about them I picture them every night praying to them.

Why would you allow a small minority of people to keep you from checking out a quality technology and and a quality TV? If you are truly after what you think is best for your situation then by all means you owe it to yourself to check out plasmas and Kuros if they are in your price range. I've seen the same thing from Pany plasma owners, Samsung LCD and plasma owner's, Sony LCD owners etc. Not sure why you decided to single out one technology and one brand.
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post #130 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 08:10 PM
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i guess his point is that those with local dimming and plasma "uneven wear" should be considerd the same at this point as far as issues therefore lcd can disgard the no BI/IR or uneven wear or bring an excuse to plasma because of this issue

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Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Just want to ask you about the first 150 hours comment, where does this come from?

I agree that uneven aging may be an issue, but even with only a 50Khr life or down to half brightness, do you really think that you will really notice this? After all that really is years of use for the average person. I think that the 100K of the newer plasmas is impressive, but after a certain point there really is no need to worry about it, you will never have it that long.

I am not sure about seeing the differences with the local dimming, time will tell. One of those things where I think that we should all sit back and let the pioneers take the arrows (no pun intended there to the Pio fans).


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post #131 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

i guess his point is that those with local dimming and plasma "uneven wear" should be considerd the same at this point as far as issues therefore lcd can disgard the no BI/IR or uneven wear or bring an excuse to plasma because of this issue

Still waiting for an answer, maybe PENDRAGON can answer the question that was specifically for him. May be you missed that.

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post #132 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Does the 750 have the gloss screen?

Yes.
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post #133 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

lol here we go again a comparison based on store.... natrualy the lcd is going to be brighter then the plasma but is not nessary good..... jpco you know the super bright pop is torch mode? vivid as in inaccurate super bright whites that are close to blues and so fourth?

Did not make the comparison based on store. Read reviews, these forums, and also tried to make honest evaluation in the store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The 750 is a beautiful display. It really is the sharpest, most vibrant, best looking picture in the retail setting. But as you say, it is not perfect. On an angle, even in the retail setting, I can see a bright blue cast on a black screen. The vertical viewing angle is down right awful from above. Luckily, no one mounts a TV below thier eye level

I'm interested to see the XBR8 and 950 but have some reservations about the LD artifacts.

Cheers

Just returned the 750 for a Panasonic 50" 850. Blacks in a dark room are not really much different from the Samsung straight on. The difference is the uniformity of the blackest blacks on the screen and the off angle viewing.

LCD is getting close with black level to the non-KURO plasmas. There are issues with each type of set, but for my needs, the plasma is more of a fit.
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post #134 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpco View Post

Did not make the comparison based on store. Read reviews, these forums, and also tried to make honest evaluation in the store.



Just returned the 750 for a Panasonic 50" 850. Blacks in a dark room are not really much different from the Samsung straight on. The difference is the uniformity of the blackest blacks on the screen and the off angle viewing.

LCD is getting close with black level to the non-KURO plasmas. There are issues with each type of set, but for my needs, the plasma is more of a fit.

Both are excellent displays IMO. I'm going with the 141 as my preference is Plasma. But I have to admit the 750/850 are catching my eye recently and the XBR8/950 is catching my interest.

And I agree about the uniformity issue.

Cheers

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post #135 of 168 Old 09-16-2008, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Both are excellent displays IMO. I'm going with the 141 as my preference is Plasma. But I have to admit the 750/850 are catching my eye recently and the XBR8/950 is catching my interest.

And I agree about the uniformity issue.

Cheers

You know, I hear so much talk about how much better LCD looks in stores, but Even in the stores I am still drawn more toward the Kuros and pannys than any of the LCD's. The LCD's have a nice picture dont get me wrong, but when I see them so bright like that it really does not look good to me.
I guess its just my taste or having been an LCD owner for so long and making the switch to plasma.
That "POP" and "eightbelow" effect does not catch my eye anymore.
I guess that initial WOW effect that all that brightness gives wears off after a while.
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post #136 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Both are excellent displays IMO. I'm going with the 141 as my preference is Plasma. But I have to admit the 750/850 are catching my eye recently and the XBR8/950 is catching my interest.

And I agree about the uniformity issue.

Cheers

So you are going with the 141, I am suprised you didn't hold out for a 10g (just 12 more months ).
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post #137 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Yes.

Thanks Chad.

I have seen the 650 up close and yes I was impressed by the blacks and the black detail. This looks like more of the same.

Let me explain my viewing area. It is roughly 15 feet wide and it is about 12-15 feet to the couch where normally me and the wife will watch. Directly behind the couch we have a semi dining area with the kitchen behind that. In the kitchen there are flouresent lights and allot of bright white tile.

We both do most of our viewing after work so the kitchen lights are on and things ar happening. With my old CRT there were horrible reflections from the lights in the kitchen. A gloss screen just wont do it. I am willing to put up with allot of things from the set that you guys would see as non-starters, but the highly reflective, I am distracted from what I am watching because someone turned on the lights in the kitchen, I can't take.

Intersestingly, along the wall to the left of the set, I have 4 big windows that face South and the light from there seldom if ever bothers me.
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post #138 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

...to be on point and answer plasma produce better blacks...so pretty much once again plasma has better blacks then lcd ~ op Question answerd.

Well that's kinda true. The Samsung LCDs and Pioneer plasmas are the exception. It depends on the model of LCD and plasmas we are talking about as well as the amount of ambient lighting in the room.

In a darkened room the Pioneers are the King. However with some ambient lighting the Samsung LCDs have better blacks due to the black coating on the screens. Also, it has been said that the Samsung 650/750 series are near Pioneer 8G type blacks whereas the Panasonics haven't quite reached that yet.
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post #139 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

You know, I hear so much talk about how much better LCD looks in stores, but Even in the stores I am still drawn more toward the Kuros and pannys than any of the LCD's. The LCD's have a nice picture dont get me wrong, but when I see them so bright like that it really does not look good to me.
I guess its just my taste or having been an LCD owner for so long and making the switch to plasma.
That "POP" and "eightbelow" effect does not catch my eye anymore.
I guess that initial WOW effect that all that brightness gives wears off after a while.

It probably depends on the store type setting you are viewing in as well and how much light is in the room. They Sammy LCDs are eye catching in stores like BB whereas the Kuros just look dim. Yes, the contrast on the LCDs are too much but you can see the Kuro's just don't have enough umph in the brightness areas to compete in high lighting environments. However if the lighting is more tame then it's down to personal choice. I didn't get to see a Sammy 81 until my vacation to Hilton Head, SC in the spring and I was disappointed in what I saw as the 8G 768p Elites had a much better overall PQ to my eyes.
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post #140 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Still waiting for an answer, maybe PENDRAG0ON can answer the question that was specifically for him. May be you missed that.

If you don't have a real question or information, don't post.

No need, gus738 pretty much nailed it, with LCD now having to worry about uneven wear from black bars (the only form of burn-in I still consider a legitimate issue these days) that is one less bullet point that can really be brought up in LCDs favor, same thing for the non reflective screens, almost every top LCD either uses a semi-gloss (close to a Panasonic's AG screen in reflectiveness) or a pure gloss screen (more reflective then your average plasma)

As for the break in bit, someone who works with LEDs for a living brought this up in the 950 thread and mentioned a break-in period (which consisted of nothing more than waiting to use the local dim function for 150 hours or so) but he was promptly attacked by several LCD fans and I don't think that he went back, I had already figured on uneven wear being an issue, but a possible break in period was news to me, so I did a bit more digging into LED tech. As I understand it, most LED bulbs use a phosphor coating right now, and as everyone knows, phosphors dim as they are used. (as does just about any light source) so with LED local dim enabled, and not knowing that this new LED tech can unevenly wear over time, what will the result in a few years be when this forum is flooded by people with unevenly aged LED displays?

LED local dim does raise the interesting issue with these new LED LCD displays, as LCD becomes more plasma like, will people begin to accept more of plasma's weaknesses as a trade off?



[side note]
I plan on my next set being an LCD (A Sony 52SL140 costco model with a semi-gloss screen) as black bars have given me issues with my current Panasonic, and I would rather not have to worry about this as over half of the movies I enjoy watching are scope aspect ratio, and I am tired of either getting IR (and adding to the uneven wear on the screen) or zooming in the picture. I won't touch a LED display for this very reason, they throw away too many LCD strengths to get a slightly better picture and deep black bars.

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post #141 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

No need, gus738 pretty much nailed it, with LCD now having to worry about uneven wear from black bars (the only form of burn-in I still consider a legitimate issue these days) that is one less bullet point that can really be brought up in LCDs favor,

A tiny percentage of LCD buyers are buying the type of LCD where that is a problem/concern.
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post #142 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 09:16 AM
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A tiny percentage of LCD buyers are buying the type of LCD where that is a problem/concern.

But moving forward it will be a problem, LED looks to be the future of LCD tech and more and more models will start to use it. By the time this issue starts to become well known and owners start to report it, LED could very well be the most common LCD type on the market.

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post #143 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 10:17 AM
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Samsung reports that OLED is the future and very soon 2010. Report also stated that Blu Ray will be dead in 5 years.

Thats why I bought a budget set this time when I've always bought the best.

And this is why everyone should too.

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/20465/1103/

Its alot easier to ditch a 1500.00 set in a couple years, than a 4k plasma or LED LCD.

These are just my opinions.
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post #144 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

Samsung reports that OLED is the future and very soon 2010. Report also stated that Blu Ray will be dead in 5 years.

Thats why I bought a budget set this time when I've always bought the best.

And this is why everyone should too.

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/20465/1103/

Its alot easier to ditch a 1500.00 set in a couple years, than a 4k plasma or LED LCD.

Laser TV was touted to be out already and be a plasma and LCD killer and be as cheap as current RPTVs. However, it's still not out yet and the 65" model will only be available at select Diamond retailers for an MSRP of $7k and no one yet knows how it will compare to plasma and LCD. On the same note, a 52" LCD is the largest size out there. Yes, there are a few over that but the price is very high and the quality is not as good either.

Point is, I'm not holding my breath for OLED or any other technology. I'm not getting any younger and year after year you hear how next year will be the year. Somehow I just can't see a 60" OLED in 2010 for under $5k let alone a 52" model when a $2000 19" set is all that's available here late in 2008 which apparently has lifespan issues.
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post #145 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 12:40 PM
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Thank you pendragoon very well said, this should be referenced very useful, not to attack lcd buyers but more to let them be aware that uneven wear with led is already an issue that plasma withhold.

The more i think about it the more worse in terms of flaws and issues LCD is making, sure its producing a better PQ improvements but at what cost? uneven wear glossy screens ~ reflection fake look of 120hz/motion response/resolution... among other issues

Also Oled is expected to be future so we have to compare what is currently out like plasma and lcd.

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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

No need, gus738 pretty much nailed it, with LCD now having to worry about uneven wear from black bars (the only form of burn-in I still consider a legitimate issue these days) that is one less bullet point that can really be brought up in LCDs favor, same thing for the non reflective screens, almost every top LCD either uses a semi-gloss (close to a Panasonic's AG screen in reflectiveness) or a pure gloss screen (more reflective then your average plasma)

As for the break in bit, someone who works with LEDs for a living brought this up in the 950 thread and mentioned a break-in period (which consisted of nothing more than waiting to use the local dim function for 150 hours or so) but he was promptly attacked by several LCD fans and I don't think that he went back, I had already figured on uneven wear being an issue, but a possible break in period was news to me, so I did a bit more digging into LED tech. As I understand it, most LED bulbs use a phosphor coating right now, and as everyone knows, phosphors dim as they are used. (as does just about any light source) so with LED local dim enabled, and not knowing that this new LED tech can unevenly wear over time, what will the result in a few years be when this forum is flooded by people with unevenly aged LED displays?

LED local dim does raise the interesting issue with these new LED LCD displays, as LCD becomes more plasma like, will people begin to accept more of plasma's weaknesses as a trade off?



[side note]
I plan on my next set being an LCD (A Sony 52SL140 costco model with a semi-gloss screen) as black bars have given me issues with my current Panasonic, and I would rather not have to worry about this as over half of the movies I enjoy watching are scope aspect ratio, and I am tired of either getting IR (and adding to the uneven wear on the screen) or zooming in the picture. I won't touch a LED display for this very reason, they throw away too many LCD strengths to get a slightly better picture and deep black bars.


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post #146 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

same thing for the non reflective screens, almost every top LCD either uses a semi-gloss (close to a Panasonic's AG screen in reflectiveness) or a pure gloss screen (more reflective then your average plasma)

As I understand it, most LED bulbs use a phosphor coating right now, and as everyone knows, phosphors dim as they are used. (as does just about any light source) so with LED local dim enabled, and not knowing that this new LED tech can unevenly wear over time, what will the result in a few years be when this forum is flooded by people with unevenly aged LED displays?

LED local dim does raise the interesting issue with these new LED LCD displays, as LCD becomes more plasma like, will people begin to accept more of plasma's weaknesses as a trade off?



[side note]
I plan on my next set being an LCD (A Sony 52SL140 costco model with a semi-gloss screen) as black bars have given me issues with my current Panasonic, and I would rather not have to worry about this as over half of the movies I enjoy watching are scope aspect ratio, and I am tired of either getting IR (and adding to the uneven wear on the screen) or zooming in the picture. I won't touch a LED display for this very reason, they throw away too many LCD strengths to get a slightly better picture and deep black bars.

Phosphors on LED's says that they are using some kind of "white light" LED?

I can't see why they shouldn't use RGB. I have seen in several trade publications LED's intended for use in LCD backlights both whith light and RGB. The white light type do have kind of a diffuse look to them, UV with a phosphor coating?

I don't see LED backlighting being subject to Burn In after someone comes up with a good RGB setup with no Phosphors. After that your biggest worry is having one or more go out.

As I sit here the set is off and I can see the diffuse glow off the screen from the lights in the kitchen. This is the same spot that my CRT used to give me a very clear and sharp image of everything that was going on behind me and it was only a 25". I can't imagine what it would be like with a 50"+.

Also I don't like the idea of having to zoom or strech the image. I feel if I was going to own a plasma it I would need to take proper care of it and lets face it, I'm lazy.
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post #147 of 168 Old 09-17-2008, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Point is, I'm not holding my breath for OLED or any other technology. I'm not getting any younger and year after year you hear how next year will be the year. Somehow I just can't see a 60" OLED in 2010 for under $5k let alone a 52" model when a $2000 19" set is all that's available here late in 2008 which apparently has lifespan issues.

OLED (I have seen a couple of them) has the most awesome PQ I have ever seen.

That being said, OLED is an organic substance that emits light when current is passed through it. A normal LED is typically made on silicon, saphire or GaS and the substrate has certain elements implanted into them with a acctual semiconductor juction. The term LED in OLED IMO is missleading.

OLED is subject to aging that is very similar to what a plasma goes though, but while the plasma phosphors tend to wear evenly, the blue, red and green OLED doesn't. This means that over time the color will shift and you probably wont notice until you see a set that is color correct. This is much worse than plasma burn in.

On the other hand OLED has great blacks.
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post #148 of 168 Old 09-18-2008, 12:42 PM
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What size OLEDs did you see, TNG? At the current size, I find it hard to be very impressed.

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post #149 of 168 Old 09-18-2008, 12:49 PM
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so oled issue is that you cant see how much you wear out one color over the other until its dead?

Quote:


OLED is subject to aging that is very similar to what a plasma goes though, but while the plasma phosphors tend to wear evenly, the blue, red and green OLED doesn't. This means that over time the color will shift and you probably wont notice until you see a set that is color correct. This is much worse than plasma burn in.

so this being one of the major issues oled has?

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post #150 of 168 Old 09-18-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

OLED is subject to aging that is very similar to what a plasma goes though, but while the plasma phosphors tend to wear evenly, the blue, red and green OLED doesn't. This means that over time the color will shift and you probably wont notice until you see a set that is color correct. This is much worse than plasma burn in.

So basically the colors will get worse and worse and then after a few years either you or a buddy gets a new set and notice that the OLED color blue is off because of uneven aging.

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