Flat panel shoot-out 7/18-19/08 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 07:24 AM
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since this shoot out is going to take place is a pro photograhper going to be there and use a good camera or will it be limited as usual by iso exposeure and our viewing display?

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post #92 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 08:49 AM
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I think you want the LG PG60 in the shootout. I believe the PG7000 is the equivalent non-US model. Many are hoping the PG60 will outgun a Panny 800U.
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post #93 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

+1

Without a KDL-55XBR8 for the shoot-out, DTV TiVo Dealer may very well be holding a sham event here... With the KDL-55XBR8 not being available till September or so, I suppose this gives him a legitimate excuse... oh well!

Just leave. You offer nothing for this forum.


Who is xbr8??
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post #94 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rberger View Post

I think you want the LG PG60 in the shootout. I believe the PG7000 is the equivalent non-US model. Many are hoping the PG60 will outgun a Panny 800U.

They are not the same. If you could get a 700 that would be worth throwing in the mix.
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post #95 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 09:11 AM
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Robert....no interest in my 1150 for the shootout?
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post #96 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a 1150 on display, but I'm not sure if we should include it since 768p panels are no longer in production, space is somewhat limited and I want to compare the latest high end panels. So if we have the room it will be included.

-Robert
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post #97 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

We will have PDP-5010FD, PDP-5020FD, PRO-111FD, PDP-6020FD and the PRO-150FD sorry I do not have any PRO-110FD left.

-Robert

Robert,

Despite being new to AVS and not as knowledgeable as many here, I nevertheless wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to limit the total number of sets in the shoot-out to a number wich is easily manageable for you, since a large number could be overwhelming to viewers and have a negative effect on evaluations. I know that when I've spent too long looking at (possibly) too many sets, I'd develop a case of eye fatigue and a slightly fried brain; sometimes headaches ensue. This happens even with plasmas, which are not usually as bright as LCDs. And trying to check out too many TVs (more than, say, 4 or 5 at a time), I lose track of my impressions and have to go look at them again, which gets my eyes tired even more.

But if they'll all be calibrated, the reduced brightness will help mitigate tired eyes. Room lighting will surely be controlled in your setup as well. And despite the total number of TVs, if they're presented in small groups as opposed to one big one, it may help produce more solid evaluations. And as long as they're all arranged logically, it shouldn't matter too much if a particular set isn't next to another; everything can't be next to everything anyway.
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post #98 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert
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post #99 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 10:47 AM
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Robert:

What type of feedback can we expect for those unfortunate folks that can't attend, like me?

There are no answers, only choices.
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post #100 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

+1

Without a KDL-55XBR8 for the shoot-out, DTV TiVo Dealer may very well be holding a sham event here... With the KDL-55XBR8 not being available till September or so, I suppose this gives him a legitimate excuse... oh well!

Since each of your four posts demonstrates a clear favoring of LCDs and a disdain for plasmas, I would say you would not be called one of our more 'objective' posters.

Why would you even venture on to a thread like this unless your intent was to do a bit of trolling? You've made up your mind on technologies and you should be spending your time on the LCD threads.
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post #101 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

since this shoot out is going to take place is a pro photograhper going to be there and use a good camera or will it be limited as usual by iso exposeure and our viewing display?

You will never get an accurate assessment from a digital camera's picture. Remember they will inevitably be viewed on a low contrast LCD monitor.
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post #102 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 11:03 AM
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ken i agree on this post regards to the member for insteing on lcd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Since each of your four posts demonstrates a clear favoring of LCDs and a disdain for plasmas, I would say you would not be called one of our more 'objective' posters.

Why would you even venture on to a thread like this unless your intent was to do a bit of trolling? You've made up your mind on technologies and you should be spending your time on the LCD threads.

i figured you would mentioned this so disregard my post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You will never get an accurate assessment from a digital camera's picture. Remember they will inevitably be viewed on a low contrast LCD monitor.


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post #103 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You will never get an accurate assessment from a digital camera's picture. Remember they will inevitably be viewed on a low contrast LCD monitor.

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets? I'm not saying that any one should be critiquing the picture quality of a set based on a digital still viewed through another imperfect filter (like some have - see pictures threads), but wouldn't the picture show if one set looks better than another? Besides, what's wrong with a bit of voyeurism from those of us who can't be there?
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post #104 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert

You have the TVs I am most interested in (5020, PRO-111, Sharp 94SE). Great! I sent you an e-mail and am hoping to arrange transportation for the event.
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post #105 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenbuddha View Post

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets? I'm not saying that any one should be critiquing the picture quality of a set based on a digital still viewed through another imperfect filter (like some have - see pictures threads), but wouldn't the picture show if one set looks better than another? Besides, what's wrong with a bit of voyeurism from those of us who can't be there?

Man, this is the third time that I've rewritten this post.

I think posting results on this forum would be fine if the photos are properly taken and that there are ample disclamers that viewers should have their monitors calibrated to better see the results. Uncalibrated monitors will likely not represent how the plasmas are performing.

Frankly, if I was photographing it, I'd have to shoot it tripod mounted (and not one of those $49 woosy tripods) using camera raw and use photoshop CS2 to be sure that nothing is added or subtracted from what the plasmas are doing. That sounds simple, but what you don't know is if one plasma has a scene that is predominately blues and another is predominately reds that using the same color temp and tint in camera raw, does't correct the additive color that the lens causes. In other words, even when you know what you're doing, its going to be a bear to get it absolutely right.

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post #106 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob0405 View Post

Robert:

What type of feedback can we expect for those unfortunate folks that can't attend, like me?

I want to IP cast the events, but need a volunteer to set-up the feed. Any takers?

I will have a wireless network connection and I expect some folks to bring their laptops and digital cameras to post on this thread.

-Robert
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post #107 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have a Nikon D80 10.2 megapixel digital still camera and a pro-tripod. Anyone comfortable in using the camera is welcome to do so. I also plan on filing with my HD Camcorder and SD digital camcorder.

Come on folks someone step up to the plate and set-up the IP cast so we can broadcast this on U-tube and use my static IP address for forum members to tune in to a higher quality feed.

-Robert
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post #108 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenbuddha View Post

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets? I'm not saying that any one should be critiquing the picture quality of a set based on a digital still viewed through another imperfect filter (like some have - see pictures threads), but wouldn't the picture show if one set looks better than another? Besides, what's wrong with a bit of voyeurism from those of us who can't be there?

Here's your short answer: No
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post #109 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 03:52 PM
 
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What controls will be in place to eliminate the potential for bias due to brand loyalty?
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post #110 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

What controls will be in place to eliminate the potential for bias due to brand loyalty?

.. a team from Consumer Reports.
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post #111 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

What controls will be in place to eliminate the potential for bias due to brand loyalty?

Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. An independent ISF instructor/calibrator is performing all of the calibrations, using the same test and measurement instruments, same sources, same day and in our store so the environment is the same for all panels. In fact, we may have more than one ISF instructor so we will have two independent experts.

The ISF instructors I am working with are very well know and highly respected. I have no affiliation with either of them. I have carefully planned for this event for over a year. Selecting the best panels, re-wiring our store, negotiating with Pioneer and other CE manufacturers to get expert presenters, materials and panels and BD players that are not even on the market yet.

This is the only correct way to see and measure the performance of each panel. An even playing field, in the same room with the same sources and ISF calibrating the panels to their best possible performance.

-Robert
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post #112 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenbuddha View Post

Shouldn't the picture from the digital camera viewed on a terrible LCD monitor still show the differences between the output of the various sets?

No it wouldn't. A digital camera has it's own picture processing chip. Its main goal is to get every single detail it can by altering exposure and dynamic range. A digital camera will try to make the best looking image, not the most accurate. You can help alleviate this problem, to a point, using manual settings. Even then, there's still the digital processing chip.

Let's say there's a difference between two values of light. The light sensor will boost if too dim, saturate all values to black, or may leave it alone. If a light is too bright it might do the same on the opposite side of the equation. The point is you don't know.

Pictures are supposed to be "pretty" and "artistic", based on your preference. With the right settings, you could have a generation 1 and next years gen 10 side by side and with enough tinkering you'd think the gen 1 was gen 10!
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post #113 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.
-Robert

I really hope you are able to get a Panasonic 850 unit in there. I know they just got released, but hopefully you can get a Panasonic rep to give you an early model. CNet just had one that they were able to view. Given that that is the latest Panasonic tech, it would be perfect to compare that with the latest models from the other manufacturers.
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post #114 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

I have a 1150 on display, but I'm not sure if we should include it since 768p panels are no longer in production, space is somewhat limited and I want to compare the latest high end panels. So if we have the room it will be included.

-Robert

Aren't you using a 5010?
The 1150 would be better than that overall and some others in the line-up.
But I completely understand you only have so much room.
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post #115 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 07:57 PM
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My wife and I will be traveling from Connecticut to the shoot-out if there is any space left. Robert I emailed you tonight. Looking forward to the event, even my wife is excited.!

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post #116 of 1057 Old 06-07-2008, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. ...
-Robert

.. holy horse-flys, i was right; i was just trying to make a funny.

Robert, you always go above and beyond, as noted from last year's LCD shoot-out. If I had expertise in 'IP cast', I would definitely fly up there to assist.
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post #117 of 1057 Old 06-08-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Who is xbr8??

It's a trilumnous led, 1080p, bravias engine2, ace pro, dnle, local dimming, 120hz, motion flow, 10 bit, x.v. color technology, live color creation technology, enhanced xmb with 3d graphics, 1.21 gigawatts. At a cost of only 5 thousand. What a joke. I wonder how many other features Sony can add to make it compete with a PDP.

SEMPER FI
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post #118 of 1057 Old 06-08-2008, 10:59 AM
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These will be off the shelf samples (Like consumer reports does)
, not hand picked/tweaked by the manufacturer?


bob



Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Correct daniel'son, and may I add some additional assurances. An independent ISF instructor/calibrator is performing all of the calibrations, using the same test and measurement instruments, same sources, same day and in our store so the environment is the same for all panels. In fact, we may have more than one ISF instructor so we will have two independent experts.

The ISF instructors I am working with are very well know and highly respected. I have no affiliation with either of them. I have carefully planned for this event for over a year. Selecting the best panels, re-wiring our store, negotiating with Pioneer and other CE manufacturers to get expert presenters, materials and panels and BD players that are not even on the market yet.

This is the only correct way to see and measure the performance of each panel. An even playing field, in the same room with the same sources and ISF calibrating the panels to their best possible performance.

-Robert

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post #119 of 1057 Old 06-08-2008, 11:01 AM
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I'd like to see a 720P Elite represented just to also compare the best 720 to the best 1080?

I'm still not convinced that 1080P is a must have for all of us!



thx


bob






Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Thanks prepress, I understand and agree.

Here's the panels I want on the main shoot-out wall. PDP-5010FD, PRO-111FD, Samsung 52" 81 series, Sharp 52" 94SE, Toshiba 52XF550U, Panasonic 50PZ800U or 850U if I can get one and possibly LG's 7000 is available.

If we get a lot of requests I can add the PRO-1150FD.

So we'll likely have 6 panels all 50" to 52" on one wall, two rows of three panels per row.

On other walls we'll have a PRO-150FD, PDP-6020FD and other Panasonic, JVC and Sony panels.

-Robert

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post #120 of 1057 Old 06-08-2008, 01:34 PM
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the knobber i dont think thats going to happen all in all the 850 is close to the pioneer non elite but its simple BEST PQ = pioneer somewhat great quality for a lower price = panasonic pretty simple bro, i have a 42px75u and while its a fine tv im goin to get the pro-111FD pioneer elite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnobber View Post

I really hope you are able to get a Panasonic 850 unit in there. I know they just got released, but hopefully you can get a Panasonic rep to give you an early model. CNet just had one that they were able to view. Given that that is the latest Panasonic tech, it would be perfect to compare that with the latest models from the other manufacturers.


devildog this is just an example how much add ons lcd needs to compete to plasma and it stil has alot of flaws to get the kicks motion blur cloud etc etc.... lcd is just nowhere near and at that price it would NOT make sense to get an lcd when you can get the very best plasma

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Originally Posted by DevilDog151 View Post

It's a trilumnous led, 1080p, bravias engine2, ace pro, dnle, local dimming, 120hz, motion flow, 10 bit, x.v. color technology, live color creation technology, enhanced xmb with 3d graphics, 1.21 gigawatts. At a cost of only 5 thousand. What a joke. I wonder how many other features Sony can add to make it compete with a PDP.

bob i too think that 1080p may not be worth about 1g as thats usualy how much it cost to upgrade from an 720p model to the next 1080p But i have not seen a 720p vs a 1080p running side by side with the same content such as a blu ray so i cannot say until facts are given,

but i do know that 1080p does make everything smoother regardless if it takes advantages of 1080p res or not. and well for the new pioneer they are cheaper! they are pure pioneer and they have 1080p so we loose nothing

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