Whatever Happened to PIP, PAP and POP? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 07-15-2008, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Whatever happened to TVs being sold with Picture-In-Picture (PIP), Picture-and-Picture (PAP) and Picture-on-Picture (POP)?

The last time I was shopping for a tv, pretty much every tv could do at least one of these. However, now that I'm shopping for a lower priced (<$2,000) lcd or plasma, the only models which have PIP, PAP or POP that I can find are Vizios. The Sony Bravias have a neutered version which lets you put the "pc input" in a window over your tv input or vice versa. The function of the Vizios is much broader, but still has it limits. For example, you can't watch two HDMI sourced inputs on the Vizio, although most other combinations are allowed.

I'd like a tv which lets me PIP or POP any two inputs. There are times when the kids want to watch something and I want to watch a football or basketball game. I don't mind watching sports without sound (sometimes it's better not to have the bobbleheads giving play-by-play). I understand that a tv which has only one analog tuner can't PIP two analog channels; a tv with only one digital tuner can't POP two digital channels. Outside of that, I don't understand why every tv isn't setup to PIP, PAP and POP every conceivable combination of inputs.

I've looked at Vizio, Sony, Philips, Samsung, Sanyo and LG. So far Vizio is all i can find with almost-useful PIP, PAP or POP. Where did it all go? This feature can't cost much to implement. Am I alone in wanting it?

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post #2 of 36 Old 07-15-2008, 09:06 AM
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I think that dual ATSC digital tuners would be more expensive than dual NTSC...but more importantly, I think marketing departments are finding that PIP is only important to a small percentage of buyers and reducing the cost by the amount saved with one tuner is more effective for sales. As for myself, I've had two tv's in the past with PIP and rarely used the feature...and many people I know personally are the same way.

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post #3 of 36 Old 07-15-2008, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama127 View Post

I think that dual ATSC digital tuners would be more expensive than dual NTSC... reducing the cost by the amount saved with one tuner is more effective for sales.

Oh, I get that. I'm not asking for a tv with two analog or two digital tuners, much less both. I'm not after watching two *live* programs (although if you PIP'd the analog and digital tuners you'd have two live programs). What I'm after is the ability to watch one live program while my kids watch a dvd, dvr, etc., or play a game.

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...more importantly, I think marketing departments are finding that PIP is only important to a small percentage of buyers....

That's what I fear.

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post #4 of 36 Old 07-17-2008, 10:07 PM
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I think they realized that a large majority of consumers thought PIP was a cool must-have feature but never actually used it. It is very rare that I come across a client that actually uses it.

My Dish DVR has PIP but I never use it.

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post #5 of 36 Old 07-22-2008, 11:12 AM
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I imagine its use dwindled because of PVR/DVR's. Just watch that second show another time.

There is one time, and one time only per year I wish I had PiP - January 1st. It would be nice to watch two different feeds of the Rose Parade. Since the broadcast lasts for 3 hours or so, it's not something I would want to watch again, so recording it is pointless.
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post #6 of 36 Old 07-22-2008, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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The only line of TVs I can find which has broad PIP/PAP/POP support are the Vizios. However, even with them, you can't use two HDMI-based inputs at the same time. I understand why you can't watch two analog channels at the same time (only one analog tuner) and why you can't watch two digital channels at the same time (only one digital tuner), but why can't you watch two HDMI inputs at a time? Is there something like a "HDMI tuner" which can only process one HDMI input at a time?

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post #7 of 36 Old 07-22-2008, 08:40 PM
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I bought a PIPed TV 12 years ago. I used the feature a few times in the first month and never since then. It was a feature that sounded better than it was. Get the kids a small TV for their uses.
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post #8 of 36 Old 07-24-2008, 06:02 PM
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My last crt (Toshiba 32") had PIP and I rarely used it. I thought it would be fantastic for watching one football game and having another in a small window...what I discovered is that my brain didn't truly let me keep track of two games at once....and the dedicated button on the remote to switch between 2 channels actually worked better.

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post #9 of 36 Old 07-24-2008, 08:09 PM
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Does your DVR do PIP? Mine (SA8300HD) does...if your DVR does PIP your problem may be solved.
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post #10 of 36 Old 07-24-2008, 08:46 PM
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I have a nearly 5 year old GWIII. The only days I never use the PiP function are those times when I'm not home. My now-dead 27" XBR served me that way for years as well.

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post #11 of 36 Old 07-25-2008, 05:59 AM
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I use PAP on my 40XBR almost daily. This is a feature I use for News, and switch back & forth when one breaks for commercial or I see a story I'm following, etc. Great for the busy football season too, when on Sat. & Sun games are being played ar the same time. For me, I never record News or Sports.

Sony had the best PAP feature I've ever seen on a TV, and when you split the screen it's easy to toggle back and forth, or make either side as big as you want or equal in size. Once you start using it, you'll miss it on other TV's.
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post #12 of 36 Old 07-26-2008, 10:24 AM
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I have a Polaroid 1080i LCD . The main reason why I bought it at the time was for it's PIP/PAP feature. The PIP feature allows me to watch TV while I am working on my computer. I use this feature everyday. I am getting Satellite HDTV installed literally as I write this. I want to upgrade to a 1080p/120hz LCD but was disappointed to find that Samsung and Sony did not build their PIP/PAP to accommodate both PC and HDMI signals. Their PIP source only allows for an analog TV signal. This doesn't even make sense because analog is going away in 6 months!! Polariod stop making LCDs so I guess I'll be stuck upgrading to a Vizio or Olevia, which were NOT my preferred choices.
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post #13 of 36 Old 07-26-2008, 07:21 PM
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I've personally owned some CRT and LCDs that use PIP, and I remember that Westinghouse LTV-32w1 was the first set I owned that had these features, and the thing that worried me was that the Westy's "Split Screen" was letterboxed, as opposed to filling the whole screen. I believe this was where Olevia would've been better. However, I believe that these features are only best with the third-tier brands. Your top brands do have some PIP/PAP functionality, like your Samsungs and Sonies, but they are pretty limited as far as how you can use those features.

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post #14 of 36 Old 10-14-2008, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

I use PAP on my 40XBR almost daily. This is a feature I use for News, and switch back & forth when one breaks for commercial or I see a story I'm following, etc. Great for the busy football season too, when on Sat. & Sun games are being played ar the same time. For me, I never record News or Sports.

Sony had the best PAP feature I've ever seen on a TV, and when you split the screen it's easy to toggle back and forth, or make either side as big as you want or equal in size. Once you start using it, you'll miss it on other TV's.

I have a Sony 34" CRT with this feature and used it everyday when it was my main tv. Are there any Sony lcds with this feature?
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post #15 of 36 Old 10-14-2008, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touchless21 View Post

I have a Sony 34" CRT with this feature and used it everyday when it was my main tv. Are there any Sony lcds with this feature?

I don't know about the new Sony LCD's, but as this feature is older vid tech, you should expect any top tier display to have it.
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post #16 of 36 Old 10-15-2008, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Ho View Post

I think they realized that a large majority of consumers thought PIP was a cool must-have feature but never actually used it. It is very rare that I come across a client that actually uses it.

My Dish DVR has PIP but I never use it.

Count me as one more.

I thought it was cool as well when I got my last CRT. It had the PIP and I did use it for a while, but the hassle of turning on a second tuner to feed the PIP and the issue of hitting the wrong button on the remote to switch back and forth took it's toll. Plus at some point I would just miss what was on the little PIP screen because all my attention was on the larger screen, I guess I am not much of a multi-tasker.

After about 2 months I quit using it altogether and never used it again. When I bought the new LCD I didn't even think about it.
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post #17 of 36 Old 10-15-2008, 09:47 AM
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Most people watching a lot of HDTV have external receivers, making PIP on the TV itself impractical and often impossible. And many of these receivers have it built in anyway.

I also thought it would be cool to have PIP with my VIP622, but after intially playing around with it a bit I have not actually used it. It's just too distracting. I can see why it's no longer offered.

If TVs start coming with the proper tuners, decoders, and DVRs necessary to eliminate the need for external source receivers, maybe they'll make a comeback.
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post #18 of 36 Old 10-16-2008, 08:43 AM
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My Dish DVR has it and so does my Samsung DLP, so I could theoretically watch three things at the same time, which I did exactly once - during the President's Day blizzard a few years ago. I could tune in three local news stations and swap around to whichever one was talking about my neighborhood.

I use PAP rarely, when there is a football game and NASCAR race on at the same time, and I happen to be around to watch live, but I usually DVR them both and watch them in compressed time. It is just too hard to hit the 30 second skip after every play and still be able to pay attention to what's going on in another window.

The fact is, why have a big screen TV if you're going to watch programs in a tiny window at less than full screen? Get the kids a 27" CRT off craigslist. People are pretty much giving them away these days.

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post #19 of 36 Old 10-16-2008, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Count me as one more.

I thought it was cool as well when I got my last CRT. It had the PIP and I did use it for a while, but the hassle of turning on a second tuner to feed the PIP and the issue of hitting the wrong button on the remote to switch back and forth took it's toll. Plus at some point I would just miss what was on the little PIP screen because all my attention was on the larger screen, I guess I am not much of a multi-tasker.

After about 2 months I quit using it altogether and never used it again. When I bought the new LCD I didn't even think about it.

That's why the Sony version was the best ever. Easy to use and a remote that optimized the feature. Split screen, P&P, is a great feature for us sports fans & news junkies that want that live view. For me, I never DVR a football game, even though I have a dual tuner HD DVR. If you don't want the feature, then fine, no problem because now you are not even able to enjoy that choice on most displays.
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post #20 of 36 Old 10-20-2008, 11:57 AM
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At my last apartment, it came with a soyo tv that had pip, pop, pbp, and split screen. It worked awesome whenever I wanted to play ps3 during commercials of a show, or while I was simulating endless seasons of ncaa football! I upgraded to a th-42pz77u and certainly do miss that luxury now.

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post #21 of 36 Old 10-21-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotmoosettu View Post

At my last apartment, it came with a soyo tv that had pip, pop, pbp, and split screen. It worked awesome whenever I wanted to play ps3 during commercials of a show, or while I was simulating endless seasons of ncaa football! I upgraded to a th-42pz77u and certainly do miss that luxury now.

It really is a gyp to omit split screen (P&P) which IMO should be a "normal" feature on all flat screen displays w/maybe the exception of an entry level TV. It's just another effort by the mfg'ers to squeeze as much profit out of display sales as possible. It really could not cost much to beef up their video processing. I mean we're only talking a few dollars per TV. I know this is my pet peeve, but I detest the push for "dumbing down" of displays & quest for cheaper build quality from the older feature-rich Tubes, especially when new flat screens are represented as state-of-the-art cutting edge video tech.
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post #22 of 36 Old 10-21-2008, 11:29 AM
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I've had tv's in the past with PIP and rarely used the feature...

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post #23 of 36 Old 11-18-2008, 02:47 PM
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Unfortunately, from what I can tell there are very few LCD/Plasma TVs that have this feature today. Vizio looks like it has the best PIP/POP functionality from what I have been able to test myself, but Sony does offer the P&P on everything but their lowest line. I highly doubt the P&P will work with 2 HDMI inputs though. Samsung's current PIP is worthless (must use analog antenna input), but it looks like their sets from last year might be more versatile.

The problem I have found is that very few retailers have multiple inputs set up on a TV, so you really can't even test the feature in the store unless you can find a nice salesperson. It does seem like what you suggest is correct though, most sets can only process 1 input "type" at a time, making it impossible to run 2 HDMI sources simultaneously. I have just about given up trying to find a TV that will do so, and am resigned to finding a PIP/POP set that can run VGA and HDMI simultaneously. I'd rather use the HDMI output on my 360, but looks like VGA will have to do. From what I can tell Olevia is a possibility, but am not sure of their quality.

I am with you though, the PIP/POP is a must have for me when the wife wants to watch TV and I want to play 360, or for watching the game and a DVD simultaneously.

If there is anyone out there who has an LCD/Plasma with PIP/POP that will run 2 hdmi inputs simultaneously, please speak up as I'd love to find one.
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post #24 of 36 Old 11-19-2008, 10:40 AM
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When I had a 27" Sony I rarely used PIP. Now I have a 43 " Sony rear projection and I use it all the time.

I was just in a high end store and asked about PIP. One guy said he did not know, another said no. They had 2 high end Sony tv. I checked the remote and there was NO "pip" "move" "swap" buttons.

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post #25 of 36 Old 11-19-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeo View Post

When I had a 27" Sony I rarely used PIP. Now I have a 43 " Sony rear projection and I use it all the time.

I was just in a high end store and asked about PIP. One guy said he did not know, another said no. They had 2 high end Sony tv. I checked the remote and there was NO "pip" "move" "swap" buttons.

A few weeks ago I read where over 30% of those people that buy an HDTV opt to not use an HD source. Kinda shocked me when I read it, but people can use whatever features their TV has available. I know I like P&P, and when you have very large screen HDTV's, it just seems even more useful to include this older feature that many of us had enjoyed previously.
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post #26 of 36 Old 11-19-2008, 07:37 PM
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Well I have to ask the same question, why can't manufacturers provide PIP on their bigger screens 50" and up? My Vizio VM60P plasma as PIP /split screen to use with both my Bright cable and Directv satellite and I use it alot during football season.
HDMI connect for 1 and component connect for the other. I can switch screens and sound when needed.
The only other current plasmas I've seen with similar feature are the 60" Pioneer Kuro's
(A bit expensive)
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post #27 of 36 Old 02-02-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stacgreen View Post

I have a Polaroid 1080i LCD . The main reason why I bought it at the time was for it's PIP/PAP feature. The PIP feature allows me to watch TV while I am working on my computer.

I am trying to accomplish this setup. I have a Samsung LN46A650 with an hd box, ps3, and computer hooked up to it. It seems like the only way to accomplish a TV/computer with PIP would be to split the cable and have one cable go directly to the TV and the other to the HD box. Then, I could PIP the cable going directly to the TV and the computer source. Does this seem logical? I'm not as advances with AV related things and I'd really hate to part ways with the Samsung, but if I need to I will. Any advice would be appreciated.
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post #28 of 36 Old 08-07-2009, 04:43 PM
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Oddly enough, as I was reading this, that was the only solution I could come up with but I have to wonder if splitting the cable yet another time (one split exists for cable modem and box) would that degrade the picture quality at all?Not the basic cable but to the HD box
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post #29 of 36 Old 01-03-2013, 09:52 AM
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You are not alone. I still use my old Sony crt tv with PAP and zoom. This should be a basic function. Simple video procesor would be fine with PAP function, than monitor would do the rest. Still hoping.
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post #30 of 36 Old 03-11-2013, 08:07 AM
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Google led me to this thread and I'm thinking of leaving my Philips PW9551 HD CRT for a flat screen, preferably with PAP!
Does anyone know good sources to search for TV's (be it current or older models)?
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