Pioneer Kuro vs. 2nd-generation LED LCD (Samsung LN55A950) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 08-17-2008, 11:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rwr1776 View Post

I'm a big fan of Plasma...I own one, but within 5 years LCD will match it in its areas of current weakness (Blacks and Contrast), while continuing to excel in areas of strength such as image retention. A variant of the technology that will enable 0 luminescence in Plasma will enable the same thing in LCDs.

Of course the somewhat mythological SED could make both obsolete.

pax,
rwr

We're more likely to see an SED on a digital camera or video camera than on a large screen TV as I just don't ever see Canon as a player in the home theater market.
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post #32 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I am not sure if Blooming will ever be totally fixed unless they figure out a way to supply an individual LED for each pixel.

Blooming will completely go away when local dimming is done with ~1500-2000 zones. Right now, LG and Philips have LD LED LCDs with 128 zones. Nobody knows what Samsung 950 and Sony XBR8 have but it's probably no more than 200. In other words, there's still a loooong way to 2000 zones.
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post #33 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 01:53 AM
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The first two people who've played with 950 and who claim they are huge Pioneer fans really like 950. It's still early, though.
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post #34 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by itguycincinnati View Post

Didn't realize the LED LCD were prone to uneven wear (as a plasma has potential of doing).

I had heard somewhere that the life expectancy is about 50,000 hours on these new gen2 LEDs... which is a lot less than the new 120,000 hour plasmas. Although in real world viewing, that would probably still last longer than anyone would keep a tv.

Well, LED dims the black areas to make them darker, and black bars dim as well, which will cause them to unevenly wear over time, just like plasma can.

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post #35 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by itguycincinnati View Post

Didn't realize the LED LCD were prone to uneven wear (as a plasma has potential of doing).

I had heard somewhere that the life expectancy is about 50,000 hours on these new gen2 LEDs... which is a lot less than the new 120,000 hour plasmas. Although in real world viewing, that would probably still last longer than anyone would keep a tv.

They're not really prone to uneven wear.

Yes, in theory the LEDs that are used more will get dimmer over time, but is there a consistent pattern across TV and movie viewing that I'm not aware of, like the top left has a higher APL than any other area of the set? If so plasmas would be in just as much trouble.
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post #36 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by diabolyte View Post

i think samsung uses phosphor coated white LEDs which could age unevenly as the phosphors wear off. life expectancy is around 50,000 hours. in sony's xbr8 it uses RGB LEDs which probably doesn't age unevenly since they aren't coated. they're rated for 100,000 hour.

What makes you think that the Red, Green, and Blue LEDs age at the same rate?

PS: They don't
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post #37 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well, LED dims the black areas to make them darker, and black bars dim as well, which will cause them to unevenly wear over time, just like plasma can.

Perhaps if 100% of your viewing was 2.35:1 content for 50,000 hours you'd have a problem, but the likelihood of that happening is just about 0. The fact is our eyes aren't all that sensitive to non-uniformity of a white screen. Using the (Max-Min) / (Max + Min) formula a set can be 20% non uniform and your eyes can't really see it (assuming the change is gradual, not an abrupt edge).
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post #38 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

What makes you think that the Red, Green, and Blue LEDs age at the same rate?

PS: They don't

Depending on the what the junctions are doped with to produce the red, green or blue, and what kind of substrate they are produced on you are correct.

Really though, even a high output LED of any color has a long enough lifetime to last much longer than you are going to keep your set. It is unlikely in a RGB setup that you will ever see differences in the outputs of the individual red, green or blue LED's within the lifetime of the set (usable lifetime).

What I worry about is when you have a faulty LED in a set or several scattered across the back. Will there be areas where the color will be off because one of the three LED's in that area are no longer working?

I have not paid attention to what Samsung is using, but a phosphor coated LED? Is the LED UV? This sounds like a recipe for issues down the line.
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post #39 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Potential may be there for the future, but the the current crop is same as always.
I dislike the "video" look to everything as well, which is an lcd trait.

To each their own, I will not own an LCD ever most likely. I'll stick with plasma until the next best things becomes available at current price sections.

I think that's a good point. I too have found that LCDs, no matter what brand or type, give that video look regardless of material. Video looks like video and film looks like video. It's an 'uber-reality' effect I don't like.

With a good plasma video looks like video but film looks like film. I just like plasma's better ability to mimic the input material.
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post #40 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Depending on the what the junctions are doped with to produce the red, green or blue, and what kind of substrate they are produced on you are correct.

Really though, even a high output LED of any color has a long enough lifetime to last much longer than you are going to keep your set. It is unlikely in a RGB setup that you will ever see differences in the outputs of the individual red, green or blue LED's within the lifetime of the set (usable lifetime).

Well, they do age slightly differently. A potentially bigger problem is luminance loss from heat. The different colors lose intensity differently as the dies heat up. I would suspect the Sony sets have color photofeedback in them to make sure the backlight color is constant over age and temp.
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I have not paid attention to what Samsung is using, but a phosphor coated LED? Is the LED UV? This sounds like a recipe for issues down the line.

They're bound to be the typical white LED... A blue die with a yellow phosphor.
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post #41 of 59 Old 08-18-2008, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by vtms View Post

The first two people who've played with 950 and who claim they are huge Pioneer fans really like 950. It's still early, though.

But "the rick" said for a home enviroment it is still Pioneer for him.
He did state for a bright room it is the best of any tech in his opinion.
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post #42 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

But "the rick" said for a home enviroment it is still Pioneer for him.
He did state for a bright room it is the best of any tech in his opinion.

I said he really liked it in general, not that he liked it better than Pioneer in a dark room. He also said he wasn't impressed with 81 or 650 which is quite telling.
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post #43 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 03:52 AM
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so, the 81f had uneven wear problems then? because i dont remember hearing that.
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post #44 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by spincut View Post

so, the 81f had uneven wear problems then? because i dont remember hearing that.

I never heard of it either, but when you think about how the LED dimming tech works, uneven wear can be a very real problem down the road, just like it can on a plasma.

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post #45 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by itguycincinnati View Post

So I am just about ready to pull the trigger on a 5020 or 6020 (which I find to probably be the best plasma tv on the market, aside from the elite). However, there is that small feeling that I should wait just a few more weeks to get a glimpse of the new Samsung 2nd generation LED LCD (950).

For a quick background, I've definitely been a Plasma fan. I watch a lot of sports and movies, and I've never been able to get over the limitations of the previous LCDs (motion blur, poorer off-angle viewing, 'blooming' in dark scenes, etc...). But before I made the pio purchase, I thought I would do some quick viewing over in the LCD forum and online. The "claims" are that the 2nd gen LED LCDs are going to resolve most of the issues that make me dislike LCDs (blur, blooming, angles, & g1 reflections). Sony's xbr8 is suppose to msrp around $7K, so that's pretty much out. Samsung's a950 is suppose to msrp for almost $3K less, and hopefully will get a better deal online.

Provided those features are corrected in the 2nd gen LEDs... I really like the 55-inch option (perfect size compromise between me and the wife) and the overall design (TOC with the option of no C). Just a sleeker look than the 5020. Also, I'm starting to think that I'm one of those people that like a punchier display... not obscenely cartoonish by any means... but brighter colors that pop a little more. I'm sure the Kuro would be plenty punchy when watching a movie at night... but I watch a lot of sports and have friends over for football during the daytime hours, and my family room does get a bit of light during the day. Since I'm not setting up shop in a dedicated theater room, light does have a small impact.

So anyway, before I ask this question over in the LCD forum, I just wanted to see am I crazy for wanting to see what the 950 will offer? Has anyone else heard any hard facts about what the gen2 LEDs will be offering, and how that will compare to the current top-end plasmas? Didn't know if there was a "D-NICE" type contributor for LCDs, who had an inside scoop on whether the 950 will hit a home run or be false promises. Personally, I'm not biased for either technology... I simply want a great display as most people do. And I am DEFINITELY not trying to start a plasma-lcd war thread... as we have all seen dozens of those. I'm sure it will still just come down to individual preferences, but just thought I would check to see if anyone has info on this new tv and how it will compare. Thanks!

Great post. First off, I current own the 5020 and while it does handle blacks superbly, there is just no comparison with Sammies new LCD's. I also had the 750 before I got the 5020 and I far and away prefer the 750 for it's RAZOR sharp detail and accurate, VIBRANT, color. The 5020's colors are dim and not accurate at all. They also took away most color adjustments to the non Elite Kuro's, so that's just a problem.

My plan is to return the 5020 and go for the 950. I have one pre ordered for the 1st week in September and I can't wait. You should check out the video of the new 950...u can find it on page 35 I believe of the 950 anticipation thread by pmpdesign I think is his name. anyway. in conclusion, after owning both the plasma and the CCFL LCD I prefer the LCD for the brightness, which obviously can be adjusted down in Movie mode as well. The 950 should be a huuuge improvement over the current 650 and 750's with its LED technology.

Good Luck!
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post #46 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 07:25 PM
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any idea when these sets will actually be available for purchase then 950?

and then of course, the price? I know MSRP is 4199 for the 55 inch, the samsung sets usually sell about 20 to 25% below MSRP? but this may take a while, probably see $3700+ for first 2 months?

the 52-750 is pretty cheap right now at $2300, inc shipping and no tax, thats a good deal.

might be hard to justify spending 60% more on the 950?

I find the plasma TV displays to be too dull, I sat and watched the 60 inch pioneer for 2 hours last week, don't flame me (too much), but I dont want my picture to look realistic, it must look like disneyland!
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post #47 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by aypues View Post

Great post. First off, I current own the 5020 and while it does handle blacks superbly, there is just no comparison with Sammies new LCD's. I also had the 750 before I got the 5020 and I far and away prefer the 750 for it's RAZOR sharp detail and accurate, VIBRANT, color. The 5020's colors are dim and not accurate at all. They also took away most color adjustments to the non Elite Kuro's, so that's just a problem.

My plan is to return the 5020 and go for the 950. I have one pre ordered for the 1st week in September and I can't wait. You should check out the video of the new 950...u can find it on page 35 I believe of the 950 anticipation thread by pmpdesign I think is his name. anyway. in conclusion, after owning both the plasma and the CCFL LCD I prefer the LCD for the brightness, which obviously can be adjusted down in Movie mode as well. The 950 should be a huuuge improvement over the current 650 and 750's with its LED technology.

Good Luck!


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=837
I'm still not sure how you're trying to judge PQ with sets in Dynamic mode?

HD quality isn't about razor sharp and crayola colors. It's about real life representation. When you look out your window, whites aren't blinding white, the green grass isn't glowing, there are details in shadows, etc...

If you prefer the cartoony look with artificial sharpness, that's fine but make sure you put that across when trying to debate PQ, as your idea of PQ is not anything close to what's actually intended.
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post #48 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aypues View Post

Great post. First off, I current own the 5020 and while it does handle blacks superbly, there is just no comparison with Sammies new LCD's. I also had the 750 before I got the 5020 and I far and away prefer the 750 for it's RAZOR sharp detail and accurate, VIBRANT, color. The 5020's colors are dim and not accurate at all. They also took away most color adjustments to the non Elite Kuro's, so that's just a problem.

My plan is to return the 5020 and go for the 950. I have one pre ordered for the 1st week in September and I can't wait. You should check out the video of the new 950...u can find it on page 35 I believe of the 950 anticipation thread by pmpdesign I think is his name. anyway. in conclusion, after owning both the plasma and the CCFL LCD I prefer the LCD for the brightness, which obviously can be adjusted down in Movie mode as well. The 950 should be a huge improvement over the current 650 and 750's with its LED technology.

Good Luck!

The Kuro's are not for some people.
If accuracy, black levels, great color saturation, and contrast is not on top of your list and Having an overbrightened, inaccurate,Torch-mode picture is, then the Kuro is not the TV for you. You would be happier with the Sammy I am sure (not that the sammy can't be acurate if calibrated correclty, just not as accurate and contrasty as a kuro).
You are definitly in the minority of Kuro owners. You are amoung the very very few that I have heard of that didn't really love the Kuro.
Were you used to Torch-mode LCD's before getting the Kuro.
I would bet that you have not set the settings properly on the 5020. You should look into re-doing your settings. I would bet that you are using Dynamic (the worst mode on the Kuro) since you seem to like your television flashy as opposed to accurate and 3D-ish.
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post #49 of 59 Old 08-19-2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=837
I'm still not sure how you're trying to judge PQ with sets in Dynamic mode?

HD quality isn't about razor sharp and crayola colors. It's about real life representation. When you look out your window, whites aren't blinding white, the green grass isn't glowing, there are details in shadows, etc...

If you prefer the cartoony look with artificial sharpness, that's fine but make sure you put that across when trying to debate PQ, as your idea of PQ is not anything close to what's actually intended.

+1

Thanks for that link. He sounded like he was a "dynamic" viewer by his statements.
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post #50 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 12:37 PM
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I'm interested in hearing more on these.
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post #51 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 03:47 PM
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the 950 is out now and available at most BB Magnolias on the west coast. just waiting to hear more reviews from owners. would be awesome if someone has the means to do a 950 vs. 9G Kuro Elite shootout.
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post #52 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 04:47 PM
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The 950's are out? I gotta see how it stacks up compared to the 9G Pioneers.

Maybe I'll swing by on my way home today to check them out.

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post #53 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 08:33 PM
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Face it plasma's day's are numbered, you folks should try and sell them now before they become paper weights around the corner.
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post #54 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Moretorque View Post

Face it plasma's day's are numbered, you folks should try and sell them now before they become paper weights around the corner.

paper weights??
thats like saying the new mustang is coming out so all previous year owners should take thier cars to the junkyard since they are now paperweights.

Conversing with you is like scratching your back with a cheese grader.
Slightly amusing, but utterly painful.
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post #55 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Moretorque View Post

Face it plasma's day's are numbered, you folks should try and sell them now before they become paper weights around the corner.

Excuse my French but vous êtes rien qu'un puant flânent. It's obvious what your intent is and I'm pretty no one takes you seriously in this forum anymore. Are they just suddenly going to stop showing a picture? Guess that puts you out two TV's then. lmao!



Here you go Mark. Might as well close another one.
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post #56 of 59 Old 08-21-2008, 09:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

paper weights??
thats like saying the new mustang is coming out so all previous year owners should take thier cars to the junkyard since they are now paperweights.

Conversing with you is like scratching your back with a cheese grader.
Slightly amusing, but utterly painful.


This should explain a lot to you chadmak09. An expert in a matter of 8 days and purchased two paperweights, lol.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post14441051
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post #57 of 59 Old 08-22-2008, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

the kuro's are not for some people.
If accuracy, black levels, great color saturation, and contrast is not on top of your list and having an overbrightened, inaccurate,torch-mode picture is, then the kuro is not the tv for you. You would be happier with the sammy i am sure (not that the sammy can't be acurate if calibrated correclty, just not as accurate and contrasty as a kuro).
You are definitly in the minority of kuro owners. You are amoung the very very few that i have heard of that didn't really love the kuro.
Were you used to torch-mode lcd's before getting the kuro.
I would bet that you have not set the settings properly on the 5020. You should look into re-doing your settings. I would bet that you are using dynamic (the worst mode on the kuro) since you seem to like your television flashy as opposed to accurate and 3d-ish.

fanboy alert
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post #58 of 59 Old 08-22-2008, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel View Post

fanboy alert

The guy is trying to compare PQ watching sets in dymanic mode. Are you really trying to defend him?
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post #59 of 59 Old 08-22-2008, 10:57 AM
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thank you

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