Pioneer Kuro vs. 2nd-generation LED LCD (Samsung LN55A950) - AVS Forum
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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So I am just about ready to pull the trigger on a 5020 or 6020 (which I find to probably be the best plasma tv on the market, aside from the elite). However, there is that small feeling that I should wait just a few more weeks to get a glimpse of the new Samsung 2nd generation LED LCD (950).

For a quick background, I've definitely been a Plasma fan. I watch a lot of sports and movies, and I've never been able to get over the limitations of the previous LCDs (motion blur, poorer off-angle viewing, 'blooming' in dark scenes, etc...). But before I made the pio purchase, I thought I would do some quick viewing over in the LCD forum and online. The "claims" are that the 2nd gen LED LCDs are going to resolve most of the issues that make me dislike LCDs (blur, blooming, angles, & g1 reflections). Sony's xbr8 is suppose to msrp around $7K, so that's pretty much out. Samsung's a950 is suppose to msrp for almost $3K less, and hopefully will get a better deal online.

Provided those features are corrected in the 2nd gen LEDs... I really like the 55-inch option (perfect size compromise between me and the wife) and the overall design (TOC with the option of no C). Just a sleeker look than the 5020. Also, I'm starting to think that I'm one of those people that like a punchier display... not obscenely cartoonish by any means... but brighter colors that pop a little more. I'm sure the Kuro would be plenty punchy when watching a movie at night... but I watch a lot of sports and have friends over for football during the daytime hours, and my family room does get a bit of light during the day. Since I'm not setting up shop in a dedicated theater room, light does have a small impact.

So anyway, before I ask this question over in the LCD forum, I just wanted to see am I crazy for wanting to see what the 950 will offer? Has anyone else heard any hard facts about what the gen2 LEDs will be offering, and how that will compare to the current top-end plasmas? Didn't know if there was a "D-NICE" type contributor for LCDs, who had an inside scoop on whether the 950 will hit a home run or be false promises. Personally, I'm not biased for either technology... I simply want a great display as most people do. And I am DEFINITELY not trying to start a plasma-lcd war thread... as we have all seen dozens of those. I'm sure it will still just come down to individual preferences, but just thought I would check to see if anyone has info on this new tv and how it will compare. Thanks!
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:59 PM
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What's the harm in waiting? LCD makes big strides every year, maybe the 2nd generation LED LCDs will be winners. I'm guessing that the Kuros will still be better but you never know.

Are they claiming to fix the off-axis viewing problem? How would LED have anything to do with that?

Also, does the 950 have a glossy screen?
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:07 PM
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If you aren't in a rush, I don't see why waiting would be a bad thing.

I
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itguycincinnati View Post

So I am just about ready to pull the trigger on a 5020 or 6020 (which I find to probably be the best plasma tv on the market, aside from the elite). However, there is that small feeling that I should wait just a few more weeks to get a glimpse of the new Samsung 2nd generation LED LCD (950).

For a quick background, I've definitely been a Plasma fan. I watch a lot of sports and movies, and I've never been able to get over the limitations of the previous LCDs (motion blur, poorer off-angle viewing, 'blooming' in dark scenes, etc...). But before I made the pio purchase, I thought I would do some quick viewing over in the LCD forum and online. The "claims" are that the 2nd gen LED LCDs are going to resolve most of the issues that make me dislike LCDs (blur, blooming, angles, & g1 reflections). Sony's xbr8 is suppose to msrp around $7K, so that's pretty much out. Samsung's a950 is suppose to msrp for almost $3K less, and hopefully will get a better deal online.

Provided those features are corrected in the 2nd gen LEDs... I really like the 55-inch option (perfect size compromise between me and the wife) and the overall design (TOC with the option of no C). Just a sleeker look than the 5020. Also, I'm starting to think that I'm one of those people that like a punchier display... not obscenely cartoonish by any means... but brighter colors that pop a little more. I'm sure the Kuro would be plenty punchy when watching a movie at night... but I watch a lot of sports and have friends over for football during the daytime hours, and my family room does get a bit of light during the day. Since I'm not setting up shop in a dedicated theater room, light does have a small impact.

So anyway, before I ask this question over in the LCD forum, I just wanted to see am I crazy for wanting to see what the 950 will offer? Has anyone else heard any hard facts about what the gen2 LEDs will be offering, and how that will compare to the current top-end plasmas? Didn't know if there was a "D-NICE" type contributor for LCDs, who had an inside scoop on whether the 950 will hit a home run or be false promises. Personally, I'm not biased for either technology... I simply want a great display as most people do. And I am DEFINITELY not trying to start a plasma-lcd war thread... as we have all seen dozens of those. I'm sure it will still just come down to individual preferences, but just thought I would check to see if anyone has info on this new tv and how it will compare. Thanks!

I'd wait. LED is a very promising tech. WAIT. But then again.. buying a Kuro isn't exactly punishment.

I don't know what I am doing! AHHHHHHH!!!!
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:55 PM
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Subscribing....

I'm in a similar debate between the 6020 and 750/950. I'm normally for plasma over LCD, but the 750 has caught my eye every time I visit one of the big box stores. My only concern, like you, is fast motion sports... and none of my local stores are able/willing to switch the feeds to let me see some hockey on the 650/750. I'm assuming it still blurs, but not sure. I have yet to see a 950... though I heard the prototype is a disappointment to most.

6020 appears to be a nice TV & has been my leading candidate since it was released. Just waiting for D-Nice to publish his Elite review and comment directly on 6020 vs 151 while taking street prices into the equation for the average consumer on a budget. Also waiting to see if the price drops some, since I don't really need a TV until Fall gets here.

Have you seen the 950/860 thread in the LCD forum? People seeing both at the NYC Samsung store?
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree... I'm probably leaning towards waiting until I get a look at this TV. The reason it's so hard to wait even a little longer is that I've been waiting to get a TV for about a year, and was hoping to get a TV before football season! I figured whatever I choose, would take a couple of weeks to get here if ordered online. And if I get the Kuro, will need another week with the burn-in dvd. But if I've waited this long, I can probably stretch it out a few more weeks. Just hoping Samsung doesn't push the date back.

Yes, from what I've heard, it will be a glossy screen. Suppose to be a little better than the current 750 or last year's 81, but not sure how it compares to plasmas (or specifically pio's anti-reflective screen). The new "Ultra Clear Panel technology" is the piece that claims to address that.

I've heard the off-axis is suppose to be improved as well... but I have nothing to confirm that. So that's one of my questions I guess, if that's true or not. That is one of my biggest concerns with an LCD. At a local high-end flat panel store here, I was told it would be improved based on more colors and more clusters?? But I have no idea if he knew what he was talking about. And my level of knowledge on LCDs is nowhere near plasmas.

In theory, the "Blooming" is suppose to be corrected with more clusters and having "LED SmartLighting technology with local dimming"... enabling the set to reduce, fully shut off or boost brightness of individual areas of the screen.

However, I do not know to what extent that will help with the blooming, or if there will always be some amount of blooming based on the technology (until each individual picture can be locally controlled)??



Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

What's the harm in waiting? LCD makes big strides every year, maybe the 2nd generation LED LCDs will be winners. I'm guessing that the Kuros will still be better but you never know.

Are they claiming to fix the off-axis viewing problem? How would LED have anything to do with that?

Also, does the 950 have a glossy screen?

-If you aren't in a rush, I don't see why waiting would be a bad thing.

-I'd wait. LED is a very promising tech. WAIT. But then again.. buying a Kuro isn't exactly punishment.

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Old 08-16-2008, 09:47 AM
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Personally, I would buy the Kuro now or wait until the next price drop.
Sample and hold ruins every single LCD for me.

-jmo
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Personally, I would buy the Kuro now or wait until the next price drop.
Sample and hold ruins every single LCD for me.

-jmo

I believe that LED backlights have the potential to virtually eliminate the sample and hold effect by flashing.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I believe that LED backlights have the potential to virtually eliminate the sample and hold effect by flashing.

Yeah, the 81 series got 800 lines of motion resolution by doing that, and it wasn't even 120hz(which will further reduce the effect) so this has the potential to get close to plasma performance. My only worry about LED is that it adds uneven wear to the equation and makes plasma even more appealing.... It will be very interesting when these hit the streets.

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Old 08-16-2008, 10:36 AM
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Potential may be there for the future, but the the current crop is same as always.
I dislike the "video" look to everything as well, which is an lcd trait.

To each their own, I will not own an LCD ever most likely. I'll stick with plasma until the next best things becomes available at current price sections.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Yeah, the 81 series got 800 lines of motion resolution by doing that, and it wasn't even 120hz(which will further reduce the effect) so this has the potential to get close to plasma performance. My only worry about LED is that it adds uneven wear to the equation and makes plasma even more appealing.... It will be very interesting when these hit the streets.

Motion resolution has 'nothing' to do with sample and hold.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:39 AM
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There are definate advantages with LCDs over Plasma... If they ever get the black level / motion issues sorted out.. but im *very* happy with my current Plasma.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:42 AM
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Other than uneeded extra brightness, there are none that are really important.
At least in my opinion.
I've had my Kuro since last year and have never had one issue with IR even, and I game on my PS3.
Uneven phosphor wear may be an issue, but only if the owner is completely uncareful.
Now these new LED lcd's may have the same wear issues.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Motion resolution has 'nothing' to do with sample and hold.

Acording to all the LCD motion threads on here, it has a lot to do with the percieved motion resolution. Sample and hold causes retina bluring of the motion, getting rid of sample and hold gets rid of the blur. I can pull up several threads if need be.

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Old 08-16-2008, 10:45 AM
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I am not trying to disagree with you.
But please let me know when that motion resolution number gets to a point where I will not CLEARLY see sample and hold.
Because I had a lower resolution plasma and never saw blur.
In fact my 1150 Kuro has less than 800 lines of resolution in motion....yet never any blur.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I am not disagreeing with you.
But please let me know when that motion resolution number gets to a point where I will not CLEARLY see sample and hold.
Because I had a lower resolution plasma and never saw blur.
In fact my 1150 Kuro has less than 800 lines of resolution in motion....yet never any blur.

Your 1150 is also a 768p display so I would hope it doesn't have over 800 lines of motion resolution.... The 81 is probably one of the few LCDs that show signs of beating sample and hold right now and the new LED sets should continue that tradition. (it imitates Plasma and CRT by introducing flicker, which many owners complained about. ) Here are the threads if you haven't seen them yet, they are quite informative.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=853744

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=960548

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Old 08-16-2008, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Other than uneeded extra brightness, there are none that are really important.
At least in my opinion.
I've had my Kuro since last year and have never had one issue with IR even, and I game on my PS3.
Uneven phosphor wear may be an issue, but only if the owner is completely uncareful.
Now these new LED lcd's may have the same wear issues.

I guess the only real advantage Ive seen when comparing friends LCDs is the ultra "clean" look they have even up close, plasma's tend to have a fuzzy "dirty" effect when looking at solid colors etc.. but really only noticeable up close So perhaps its a non-issue with normal viewing.

Then again I sit borderline to close to my 5080HD so I sometimes see this symptom, for example when looking at the Xbox360 dashboard.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

I guess the only real advantage Ive seen when comparing friends LCDs is the ultra "clean" look they have even up close, plasma's tend to have a fuzzy "dirty" effect when looking at solid colors etc.. but really only noticeable up close So perhaps its a non-issue with normal viewing.

Then again I sit borderline to close to my 5080HD so I sometimes see this symptom, for example when looking at the Xbox360 dashboard.

I wonder if it is more of an issue with the resolution on your set (1280x768). 768 isn't a standard res (720p is 1280x720), so the adjustment your 5080 is doing may result in the fuzzy effect you're seeing. Is your friend's LCD 1080p? If so, that would make sense.
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Old 08-16-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Your 1150 is also a 768p display so I would hope it doesn't have over 800 lines of motion resolution.... The 81 is probably one of the few LCDs that show signs of beating sample and hold right now and the new LED sets should continue that tradition. (it imitates Plasma and CRT by introducing flicker, which many owners complained about. ) Here are the threads if you haven't seen them yet, they are quite informative.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=853744

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=960548

I think I might know my PDP's resolution.
The 81f is one LCD I've never looked at in person. As it had such aweful issues.
I will be happy to go take a look at the soon to come XBR8 and Sammy 950. to see if it is gone.
Still wouldn't buy one due to other LCD traits, BUT, that would be a very meaningful upgrade to LCD's.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Didn't realize the LED LCD were prone to uneven wear (as a plasma has potential of doing).

I had heard somewhere that the life expectancy is about 50,000 hours on these new gen2 LEDs... which is a lot less than the new 120,000 hour plasmas. Although in real world viewing, that would probably still last longer than anyone would keep a tv.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Yeah, the 81 series got 800 lines of motion resolution by doing that, and it wasn't even 120hz(which will further reduce the effect) so this has the potential to get close to plasma performance. My only worry about LED is that it adds uneven wear to the equation and makes plasma even more appealing.... It will be very interesting when these hit the streets.

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Old 08-16-2008, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

I wonder if it is more of an issue with the resolution on your set (1280x768). 768 isn't a standard res (720p is 1280x720), so the adjustment your 5080 is doing may result in the fuzzy effect you're seeing. Is your friend's LCD 1080p? If so, that would make sense.

Pioneers haven't been 1280x768 since the 5060/1130HD. The 5070/5080 were both 1365x768.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

I wonder if it is more of an issue with the resolution on your set (1280x768). 768 isn't a standard res (720p is 1280x720), so the adjustment your 5080 is doing may result in the fuzzy effect you're seeing. Is your friend's LCD 1080p? If so, that would make sense.

Its not a resolution issue as my previous 1080P Panasonic plasma had the same effect, its a known plasma trait associated with the technology although I believe some plasmas are better at hiding it than others.

Just to clairfy the 5080's native res is 1365x768.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soncomet View Post

Pioneers haven't been 1280x768 since the 5060/1130HD. The 5070/5080 were both 1365x768.

Oops, sorry about that. I haven't looked at a 5080 in a long time. I knew it was a non-standard res, but forgot it was non-standard all around. Sorry about that.
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

Its not a resolution issue as my previous 1080P Panasonic plasma had the same effect, its a known plasma trait associated with the technology although I believe some plasmas are better at hiding it than others.

I see it some kuros and then others I don't. Last time I was at Best Buy, I noticed it pretty strongly, but then I went to a Magnolia and another local custom installer shop and I couldn't see it. And I know there were other Kuro models in Best Buy that I had seen before that did not show it, so it didn't seem to be related to what environment I was viewing them in. I haven't been keeping track, but I would say that more times I do not see it than I do.

I still haven't figured out whether there are any settings that are different or if it is variances between displays themselves. It's really distracting when I do see a set that shows that effect, to the point to where I think I would go to the trouble of exchanging it, if it could not be remedied with settings changes, to get one that looked like the ones that I could not notice it on. Again, that would only be if settings couldn't help it - it may be that there are certain settings that are what are able to make it to where I don't see the effect (at least what I am able to notice - I don't know if others would still say they notice something).
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by vd0 View Post

I see it some kuros and then others I don't. Last time I was at Best Buy, I noticed it pretty strongly, but then I went to a Magnolia and another local custom installer shop and I couldn't see it. And I know there were other Kuro models in Best Buy that I had seen before that did not show it, so it didn't seem to be related to what environment I was viewing them in. I haven't been keeping track, but I would say that more times I do not see it than I do.

I still haven't figured out whether there are any settings that are different or if it is variances between displays themselves. It's really distracting when I do see a set that shows that effect, to the point to where I think I would go to the trouble of exchanging it, if it could not be remedied with settings changes, to get one that looked like the ones that I could not notice it on. Again, that would only be if settings couldn't help it - it may be that there are certain settings that are what are able to make it to where I don't see the effect (at least what I am able to notice - I don't know if others would still say they notice something).

Diiferences in:
1. feeds
2. connections
3. settings
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itguycincinnati View Post

Didn't realize the LED LCD were prone to uneven wear (as a plasma has potential of doing).

I had heard somewhere that the life expectancy is about 50,000 hours on these new gen2 LEDs... which is a lot less than the new 120,000 hour plasmas. Although in real world viewing, that would probably still last longer than anyone would keep a tv.

I was not aware of this either...can someone please explain further.

I also don't see how this could possibly be an LED induced effect...the LEDs simply replace the cathode backlight and I wasn't aware that LEDs could age unevenly. I thought they either light or don't light and have a crazy long lifetime.
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:39 PM
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i think samsung uses phosphor coated white LEDs which could age unevenly as the phosphors wear off. life expectancy is around 50,000 hours. in sony's xbr8 it uses RGB LEDs which probably doesn't age unevenly since they aren't coated. they're rated for 100,000 hour.

its gonna be interesting to see if these 2008 LED BL LCDs will be able to close the performance gap with plasmas in contrast and motion. viewing angles will probably still be an issue though, but LCDs still hold many advantages over plasmas, so it might be the better display overall. we'll have wait to see though. the 950 drops in a couple of weeks, if not already, and the xbr8 comes out around october.
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Old 08-16-2008, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoChe View Post

I wonder if it is more of an issue with the resolution on your set (1280x768). 768 isn't a standard res (720p is 1280x720), so the adjustment your 5080 is doing may result in the fuzzy effect you're seeing. Is your friend's LCD 1080p? If so, that would make sense.

This is normal with plasmas and especially pronounced with Kuros.
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by itguycincinnati View Post

In theory, the "Blooming" is suppose to be corrected with more clusters and having "LED SmartLighting™ technology with local dimming"... “enabling the set to reduce, fully shut off or boost brightness of individual areas of the screen.”

However, I do not know to what extent that will help with the blooming, or if there will always be some amount of blooming based on the technology (until each individual picture can be locally controlled)??

I am not sure if Blooming will ever be totally fixed unless they figure out a way to supply an individual LED for each pixel. Which would be so expensive it would not be worth it anyway.
And even then you have to worry about the individual pixel Led blooming to the one next to it.
LCD will never match plasma due to plasmas ability to illuminate the indivdual pixel itself instead of having to rel on a blooming backlight/LED.
I can't wait until the 10G kuros and above come out. Zero idle luminance will force Pioneer to start to focus on brightening things up a bit. this may increase power consumption a little but I would not care one bit if my TV costs me 1-2 dollars more a month.
although my Kuro is plenty bright for a normally lit room, I am sure that if The kuros got brighter they could compete with LCD on that "Torch POP" that attracts buyers in BB/CC.
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I am not sure if Blooming will ever be totally fixed unless they figure out a way to supply an individual LED for each pixel. Which would be so expensive it would not be worth it anyway.
And even then you have to worry about the individual pixel Led blooming to the one next to it.
LCD will never match plasma due to plasmas ability to illuminate the indivdual pixel itself instead of having to rel on a blooming backlight/LED.

I'm a big fan of Plasma...I own one, but within 5 years LCD will match it in its areas of current weakness (Blacks and Contrast), while continuing to excel in areas of strength such as image retention. A variant of the technology that will enable 0 luminescence in Plasma will enable the same thing in LCDs.

Of course the somewhat mythological SED could make both obsolete.

pax,
rwr
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