2,400Hz LCD, no blur, no SAH, why not? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 75 Old 09-17-2008, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I am disappointed with glossy lcd screens, LD LED lcds, motionflow type 120hz motion enhancements that give me 3D headache. I am not too keen on flicker (don't want plasma) and I love static lcd images, the detail, the pop, etc. I read that Samsung wants to sell 240hz lcds in 2012? I only hope the screen will be matte,, no LD LED zones, black color rendition as good as on sony professional broadcast lcd monitor, or some kind of kuro lcd. What remains to be fixed is motion handling, so since I don't believe 240hz is that much of an improvement can they make over 2,000 Hz lcd( yes two thousand Hz) or higher, whatever it takes for perfect motion? What I want is an LCD picture quality as good in motion as it is when static (no cartoon walk, no gloss) I've allowed myself to start this thread in order to finally get the answers about LCD motion handling. Thank you very much in advance for any constructive info.
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post #2 of 75 Old 09-17-2008, 07:12 PM
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If you want all those things, then you are an OLED man, dude!

Hang tight, the OLED Saviour is approaching with speed, his mighty footsteps rocking the land, shaking and breaking those nasty LCDs and PDPs!

With perfect blacks his mighty attacks
will roll PDP off its tracks!

And super speed to take the lead
on LCD's market-feed!

Thin is in and OLED wins
nobody thicker could be slicker!

No blur and no fur
on this mighty beast!

All your frames are his trivial games
he juggles them with ease in a microsecond sneeze
while the LCD sleaze does wheeze and PDP's chromatic freeze!

OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread
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post #3 of 75 Old 09-17-2008, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post




If you want all those things, then you are an OLED man, dude!

Hang tight, the OLED Saviour is approaching with speed, his mighty footsteps rocking the land, shaking and breaking those nasty LCDs and PDPs!

With perfect blacks his mighty attacks
will roll PDP off its tracks!

And super speed to take the lead
on LCD's market-feed!

Thin is in and OLED wins
nobody thicker could be slicker!

No blur and no fur
on this mighty beast!

All your frames are his trivial games
he juggles them with ease in a microsecond sneeze
while the LCD sleaze does wheeze and PDP's chromatic freeze!

OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread

I don't know about approaching with speed. But I wish it would hurry up.

By the time it gets here in sizes appropriate for HT, LCD and plasma will be much much better

Think about it,
LCD will be in great shape, and the 10G Kuro with absolute black and almost as thin as OLED will probably be out.

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #4 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 01:02 AM
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Sounds to me that the Op has no choice but HD CRT TUBE Plasma then last LCD, in perspective to flat screen and the tube as best PQ. then oled (hopefully) soon will mass market but dont expect a 50" for 2k as soon as 2015

get a plasma its your best call

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post #5 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

Sounds to me that the Op has no choice but HD CRT TUBE Plasma then last LCD, in perspective to flat screen and the tube as best PQ. then oled (hopefully) soon will mass market but dont expect a 50" for 2k as soon as 2015

get a plasma its your best call

Exactly. I'll just add that by 2015 it's going to be a different flat panel world out there. LCD and PDP might be on their way out then while OLED will probably share the fate of SED.
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post #6 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 06:35 AM
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Why would you need 2kHz refresh when the source is still 30Hz or less? What am i missing?


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post #7 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

Why would you need 2kHz refresh when the source is still 30Hz or less? What am i missing?

i agree.
2400hz?? my goodness. maybe he meant 240hz?

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #8 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 09:45 AM
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even with 240hz lcd still wont dice, they need instant on / off like plasma and its not possible because of the way the technology is. its just not ment to be Natrually fast response, add ons dont do do the job 120hz interpolation and adding a frame is not the right way.

lcd in general is a failed technology for TV viewing and compared to plasma and the only reason it still exisit is because

of idiots who belive lcd is better

and low cost to make lcd more revenues and back to idiots...

a very very small group that have really no control over lighting READ

maybe glass windows from over 5ft in glass or glass house, thats a diffrent story

but even then why not put blids or the tv behind the glass?

and pretty soon you might scratch that off as most companies are going glossy screen to get higher PQ ' more blacks' etc etc

also Led is another issue, it will cause Uneven wear like plasma so thats another thing lcd trolls wont be able to use....

yes i said it correct LED lcd will have uneven wear ie burn in ~ burn in can mean its wear is diffrent then the other area of tv , black bars side bars etc etc..

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post #9 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

of idiots who belive lcd is better

unbelivable
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post #10 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:42 AM
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Without getting into a argument, give me a good reason(s) why lcd is better tv expereince for watching movies and games and regular programing then a plasma would be

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unbelivable


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post #11 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:44 AM
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I never said plasma wasn't a better experience.
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post #12 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:47 AM
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Well i wrote "idiots who think lcd is better ~ then plasma, then you replied saying "unbeliable" and i have a feeling is because you dont fellow my statement correct? if so then my question still remains why do you think of my statement and or question about lcd ? because i clearly wrote on my post for tv viewing expereince

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post #13 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 11:51 AM
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gus, FWIW your posts are tiresome. Hell I actually agree with your general stance on things, but your responses to every single thread read the same way, and you're not adding anything useful to the discussion. The complete lack of punctuation, spelling, and grammar don't help either (I apologize in advance if there's some explanation for that).

This thread was asking about how super high refresh rates could help LCDs work better. You don't really know anything about how LCDs work, or what's in the pipeline, or how manufacturers might take advantage of these things to comment intelligently on it. Repeating the same old generalities doesn't add anything to the conversation. Your posts in the thread about the professional Sony LCD monitors were the same - you sounded like the guy who says "but it's impossible for them to play" during a barbershop discussion about whether Wilt could take on Shaq.

As for LCD buyers being idiots, well the fact is what people like is a personal preference thing. If Joe Blow likes the way an LCD looks and it fits his needs, who are you to call him an idiot? That's like saying that someone who likes mushrooms on their pizza is an idiot. Different strokes for different folks.

jeff
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post #14 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 11:58 AM
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jeff yeah i did get off topic and i guess your post makes sense sorry for my miss spelling although i just wanted to explain the issues with lcd because i just wanted to let the op know all the facts, and how lcd cannot fix its motion speed even with 240hz and lol that led to the rest ....

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post #15 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moreHD View Post

Why Not

There are myriad reasons why not, firstly, motion artifacts. Secondly, it would take a beast of a processor to create 80 interpolated frames(30 fps * 80 = 2,400hz), I would be suprised if it was even possible to do this in real time with today's technology. Lastly, even if you could get all that working, response times are no where near fast enough to display 2,400hz content, considering how you need a bare minimum of 4 milliseconds to display 240hz content, you would need to increase speeds from current top of the line LCDs 10 times in order to accomplish this.
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post #16 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 01:03 PM
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No worries, I just think boards work best when people stay on topic and stick to what they know best. In my case, that means not talking too much about LCD technology Don't take me too seriously though.

But I do believe that faster screen refresh rates and backlight tricks can improve certain aspects of LCD performance, hence the OPs question. If I'm not mistaken the new 950 series Samsung LED backlight models do some sort of back light flickering that apparently really improves the motion blur. Or at least I think that's what the CNET review said.

I also believe there was news about Sony and Samsung coming out with 240 Hz displays? More techno-trickery is coming.

jeff
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post #17 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

even with 240hz lcd still wont dice, they need instant on / off like plasma and its not possible because of the way the technology is. its just not ment to be Natrually fast response, add ons dont do do the job 120hz interpolation and adding a frame is not the right way.

lcd in general is a failed technology for TV viewing and compared to plasma and the only reason it still exisit is because

of idiots who belive lcd is better

and low cost to make lcd more revenues and back to idiots...

a very very small group that have really no control over lighting READ

maybe glass windows from over 5ft in glass or glass house, thats a diffrent story

but even then why not put blids or the tv behind the glass?

and pretty soon you might scratch that off as most companies are going glossy screen to get higher PQ ' more blacks' etc etc

also Led is another issue, it will cause Uneven wear like plasma so thats another thing lcd trolls wont be able to use....

yes i said it correct LED lcd will have uneven wear ie burn in ~ burn in can mean its wear is diffrent then the other area of tv , black bars side bars etc etc..

Wow! You have a real fundamental misunderstanding of many aspects of display technology.

LCD is failed technolgy? For better or worse, it's dominating the market share and shows no signs of slowing.

Segmented LED backlights will not 'burn-in' like any phosphor based display (CRT, Plasma, OLED) can. (LEDs do age and fail, but not like phosphors.)

LCDs can be instant-on; ever heard of ferro-electric liquid crystal modes? Probably not... These are bi-stable, like a DLP. There is a huge ammount of R&D going into LC materials research; they will get better.

Plasma and LCDs both have their place. You're obviously a plasma fan-boy, but please stop posting mis-information you don't understand.

W. Lee Hendrick
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post #18 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 01:15 PM
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even if possible with the hz the speed is the issue with lcd, fix the speed of the ms and theirs no need for more hz ...

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Originally Posted by blazerqb11 View Post

There are myriad reasons why not, firstly, motion artifacts. Secondly, it would take a beast of a processor to create 80 interpolated frames(30 fps * 80 = 2,400hz), I would be suprised if it was even possible to do this in real time with today's technology. Lastly, even if you could get all that working, response times are no where near fast enough to display 2,400hz content, considering how you need a bare minimum of 4 milliseconds to display 240hz content, you would need to increase speeds from current top of the line LCDs 10 times in order to accomplish this.


it is a failed technology if you were to asked your self what provides a better tv expereince, but as jeff said everyone has diffrent taste so YMMV
its taking over again part of it is missinformed people for the most part and lower cost as i said earlier,

the led based system will have uneven wear and burn in is considerd part uneven wear but ok lets retract burn in., pendragoon help with this explination.

if lcd were instant on wouldnt that solve motion blur? why not use this on cosumer displays? (iv heard of the high end sony bvpm or whatever) those dont have a problem compared to normal lcd in terms of motion blurr


how is it misinfomration/missleading? yes i like plasma but i still try to stick with facts.... lcd in general are not ideal to watch tv expereince comapred to plasma (flaws/issues wise)


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Originally Posted by wleehendrick View Post

Wow! You have a real fundamental misunderstanding of many aspects of display technology.

LCD is failed technolgy? For better or worse, it's dominating the market share and shows no signs of slowing.

Segmented LED backlights will not 'burn-in' like any phosphor based display (CRT, Plasma, OLED) can. (LEDs do age and fail, but not like phosphors.)

LCDs can be instant-on; ever heard of ferro-electric liquid crystal modes? Probably not... These are bi-stable, like a DLP. There is a huge ammount of R&D going into LC materials research; they will get better.

Plasma and LCDs both have their place. You're obviously a plasma fan-boy, but please stop posting mis-information you don't understand.


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post #19 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

even if possible with the hz the speed is the issue with lcd, fix the speed of the ms and theirs no need for more hz ...

70% of motion blur in LCDs come from the SAH effect, only 30% comes from the lack of response time. Extremely high hz lowers the hold time reducing blur.
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post #20 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

how is it misinfomration/missleading?

You said:

"they need instant on / off like plasma and its not possible because of the way the technology is."

Ferro-Electric Liquid Crystals have essentially "instant" response times (although they're bi-stable and must be temporally dithered) and Nematic mode LC response time has been improving greatly. Therefore, your statement is just plain worng.

"lcd in general is a failed technology for TV viewing"

As I said LCD has the lead in market share, so this is just plain wrong since most TV viewers choose LCD. Is it the best? no.. But a failure? hardly.

"also Led is another issue, it will cause Uneven wear like plasma"

Again, you are wrong. LEDs do not age like phosphors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

yes i like plasma but i still try to stick with facts...

lcd in general are not ideal to watch tv expereince comapred to plasma

Your opinion, not fact.

Just to set the record straight, I'm not an LCD fan boy, the only panel I have is on my lap-top. I have a direct-view CRT on my work computer and an SXRD projector in my Home theater. At work, we've designed display systems which use CRT, DLP, AM-LCD, Ferro-Electric LCD and LED and OLED display technologies (generally micro-displays, so obviously no plasma). All current display technologies have their strengths and weaknesses and I'm glad I have to ability to choose between them as the requirements of the application demand.

W. Lee Hendrick
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post #21 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post



If you want all those things, then you are an OLED man, dude!

No blur and no fur
on this mighty beast!


OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread


Exaggerating a bit are we ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazerqb11 View Post

70% of motion blur in LCDs come from the SAH effect, only 30% comes from the lack of response time.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by moreHD View Post

I don't believe 240hz is that much of an improvement can they make over 2,000 Hz lcd( yes two thousand Hz) or higher, whatever it takes for perfect motion?


Hertz by themselves don't reduce blur. They will increase blur in fact because after a point, the eye percieves high refresh intervals as sample-and-hold again (myself and others have tested this and it follows theory). Hz are only a meduim for the true effector, higher temporal frame rates. Frame rates are really what people are asking for, not higher hz. Knowing this can completely change the way you go about problem solving.
For instance all you really need to ask is what's the optimum frame rate - 75fps avoids flicker (though Oled/LCD will need BFI/scanning) so let's call that the goal . The best way to achieve it? Would it be so hard for broadcasters/movie studios to simply raise their standard by 15-20fps - apparently so.
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post #22 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 08:37 PM
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I myself find it very interesting that people sometimes buy products in general with very little knowledge as to which is best. Lcd and plasma tech are ok but I see a trend lately which is one of the reasons i still watch a crt tube tv today and that problem is that every year vid manufactures try to fix the root causes by fixing the displays when actually the displays are much better than the signal fed to them. I am disappointed with hdtv standard when they developed it, they should have made it manditory for at least have original signal source recorded at 60 fps minimum at 1080p instead of haveing many standards for ATSC. Our source material is the main true culprit for our display problems not the displays themselves,manufactures just put band-aids on it!!!! WE here should lobby for higher quailty source materials and i bet most if not all major problems would be solved!!! thx
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post #23 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 08:40 PM
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steve i'm still waiting for your response dont have any?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

Without getting into a argument, give me a good reason(s) why lcd is better tv expereince for watching movies and games and regular programing then a plasma would be

Also led based can get uneven wear

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post #24 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 08:47 PM
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Since this is the digital age we should have all film and broadcasters switch to an all and fully encompassing digital system simialar to the DCI system where source material is always recorded at or higher levels of std then what is available to consumers. I do not understand even today why develop HDTV (ATSC) std when film is still used today at a pathetic 24fps a 100 year old std in my opinion and I think the movie and broadcaster industry should do a complete radical update in using better quality tech which is available today cheers!!!
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post #25 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 08:59 PM
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steve i'm still waiting for your response dont have any?

My response to what ? What is your question ?
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post #26 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
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Our source material is the main true culprit for our display problems not the displays themselves,manufactures just put band-aids on it!!!! WE here should lobby for higher quailty source materials and i bet most if not all major problems would be solved!!! thx

Yes!! the HD standard was crap as far as that was concerned. And band aid is a good word for what is happening now. Source frame rates are the real problem.
I'll be the first one in line
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post #27 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:02 PM
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My response to what ? What is your question ?

Without getting into a argument, give me a good reason(s) why lcd is better tv expereince for watching movies and games and regular programing then a plasma would be

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post #28 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

Without getting into a argument, give me a good reason(s) why lcd is better tv expereince for watching movies and games and regular programing then a plasma would be

I never made the claim that LCD was better for watching movies and games. I remarked because I couldn't believe that you were calling people names for owning a certain type of television. It's only a TV, relax.
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post #29 of 75 Old 09-18-2008, 10:26 PM
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I'm relaxed but what im trying to say is that lcd is in general worse then plasma for pretty much all tv expereince and i explianed along with the line of saying idiots and you responded so now im asking do you think lcd sucks in general? if so then you would have to agree to the points i mentioned why lcd is failed tech (of course keep the dead horse going and milking us for inferior technology since its not going anywhere)

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post #30 of 75 Old 09-19-2008, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by borf View Post

Hertz by themselves don't reduce blur. They will increase blur in fact because after a point, the eye percieves high refresh intervals as sample-and-hold again (myself and others have tested this and it follows theory). Hz are only a meduim for the true effector, higher temporal frame rates. Frame rates are really what people are asking for, not higher hz. Knowing this can completely change the way you go about problem solving.
For instance all you really need to ask is what's the optimum frame rate - 75fps avoids flicker and blur (though Oled/LCD will need BFI/scanning) so let's call that the goal . The best way to achieve it? Would it be so hard for broadcasters/movie studios to simply raise their standard by 15-20fps - apparently so.

Thank you borf. You made my day. So if 75fps is the optimum frame rate, if I record at 1080p at 75fps with a video camera and then display it on a 120Hz lcd with BFI, but WITHOUT motion processing ( I think toshiba does straight 120hz, no 'motionflows') would you say I could then experience the best motion handling picture ever on an LCD. Or do the lcd tv's need to be further modified ( maybe 60 Hz + backlight scanning would be better, I remember a philips lcd with ClearLCD technology; it used scanning but I can't remember if at 60 or 120hz)?

And now a crazy idea! If I generated my own electricity with a generator and special converters to achieve 75 Hz electricity and have my lcd tv modified to work at 2* 75hz, that is 150 HZ !!! with BFI, then displaying 75fps recorded material, would I achieve LCD motion as smooth as cream? Does it work out like that???
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Closed Thread OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

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